Is Jesus God?

cfultz3 · Aug 17, 2013

Thank you for your quick reply. As I am sure you know, "angel" is defined as "messenger" and it was under that definition that Jesus is the "Messenger sent from God" in the New Testament, or if one wishes, "the Angel of the Lord", as found in the Old Testament. Condensively, He is the Mouthpiece of the Godhead and the One sent with God's message, that is, the Word.

It would be interesting if you could find out how they modernly define "the Angel of the Lord", with the understanding that "angel" means "messenger".

kenisyes · Aug 17, 2013

cfultz3 said:

Since Hebrew is now a living language, I would imagine you would get any definition you could imagine, depending who you talked to.

oldhermit · Aug 17, 2013

kenisyes said:

υἱός is often used to imply offspring in humans but rarely in connection to animals. As you say, it also has a very significant figurative application. Thayer gives a rather extensive explanation of the many uses of υἱός. It is used in a number of different ways to define a variety of a aspects connected to relationship. So the task is to determine, not how the culture of the period used the term υἱός but, how does the Holy Spirit use the term as it defines Jesus' relationship with the Father. Jesus used the word to describe the explosive nature of James and John in Mark 3:17. He certainly did not mean they were the offspring of some meteorological phenomena. So, the word clearly has a metaphoric range.

If we attach the general use of the term as one who is a son by reason of parentage, or even adoption, we must be able to find scripture that defines Jesus in just this way. What we find instead in connection to Jesus is its metaphoric use. He is one who bears the same image/nature as the Father. The question then is what is the image of God?

Anything that is bi-cameral is two chambered. I have selected this term because I believe it most aptly describes how portrays the essence and character of God. 1. The essence is what I regard as signature traits. These traits qualify God as God. Intrinsically, the essence of God is Spirit, Ever-present, Immortal, Holy, Eternal, Self-existing, All-powerful, Invisible, Self-sustaining, All-knowing, Unified, Transcendent, etc.
2. The character of God is what I would regard as attributes that define His moral integrity. The
character of God is, Holy, Good, Faithful, Patient, Righteous, Honest, Loving, Just, Fair, Forgiving, Pure, Consistent, Merciful, etc. These are qualities we find ascribed to the Word of God in the scriptures. Every attribute of essence and character that scripture assigns to God are represented also in Jesus.

kenisyes · Aug 17, 2013

oldhermit said:

I agree completely with paragraph 1.

Paragraph 2, I ask why must we prove the usage with additional Scriptures? It is not important to me, but various new age religions advance that Jesus is the Son of God in the same sense we are, as adopted. Why does the absence of Scripture confirmation rule out this usage as well? I agree with you, but we need to tighten this part of the argument.

Paragraph 3. WHere does bi-cameral and two chambered come from? We don't need the distinction to prove that Jesus partakes of all the character attributes of God. We had a post earlier today that demonstrated that the fullness of Godhead resides in Jesus. My problem here is that we need a proof that your list is necessary and sufficient. Just because it works for you, does not mean we have our answer. Dualists argue that both the good and evil god has all these traits in #1, except holiness is defined relative to each individual creator. If we proceed with this argument, of course, the evil creator lacks the traits of #2, and in fact the lack is the point of his existence, to have the opposite traits eternally, and thus maintain the balance of power that keeps the universe in existence. If we pursue this alternate theory, we can demonstrate that there is a good creator (traits of #1-2), an evil creator (#1 only), a son of the good creator, and the Holy SPirit. That's four people and you are forced to eliminate one by yesterday's argument. My point is that you reach Jesus being God with this argument, only if you accept the traits in #2 as being necessary attributes of God, and there are many in the world who do not.

The alternate still remains on the table. At creation, the word was God. The word was made flesh, at which time he became a flesh vessel of God, containing within him the fullness of godhead, and yet not being God, and was thus called the son of God. Such a thing is quite possible: Balls of clay may be molded into a box and baked in an oven, and after more balls of clay are added. The box is now a box, and no longer "balls" of clay, yet contains other balls of clay. The Koran says Jesus did not die, but only pretended to be dead. Since Jesus' spirit did not die (it was given to His Father's hands), one can almost see a way this could happen. Whatever we prove must certainly be applicable proof against Islam.

oldhermit · Aug 17, 2013

kenisyes said:

I agree completely with paragraph 1.

Paragraph 2, I ask why must we prove the usage with additional Scriptures? It is not important to me, but various new age religions advance that Jesus is the Son of God in the same sense we are, as adopted. Why does the absence of Scripture confirmation rule out this usage as well? I agree with you, but we need to tighten this part of the argument.

Paragraph 3. WHere does bi-cameral and two chambered come from? We don't need the distinction to prove that Jesus partakes of all the character attributes of God. We had a post earlier today that demonstrated that the fullness of Godhead resides in Jesus. My problem here is that we need a proof that your list is necessary and sufficient. Just because it works for you, does not mean we have our answer. Dualists argue that both the good and evil god has all these traits in #1, except holiness is defined relative to each individual creator. If we proceed with this argument, of course, the evil creator lacks the traits of #2, and in fact the lack is the point of his existence, to have the opposite traits eternally, and thus maintain the balance of power that keeps the universe in existence. If we pursue this alternate theory, we can demonstrate that there is a good creator (traits of #1-2), an evil creator (#1 only), a son of the good creator, and the Holy SPirit. That's four people and you are forced to eliminate one by yesterday's argument. My point is that you reach Jesus being God with this argument, only if you accept the traits in #2 as being necessary attributes of God, and there are many in the world who do not.

The alternate still remains on the table. At creation, the word was God. The word was made flesh, at which time he became a flesh vessel of God, containing within him the fullness of godhead, and yet not being God, and was thus called the son of God. Such a thing is quite possible: Balls of clay may be molded into a box and baked in an oven, and after more balls of clay are added. The box is now a box, and no longer "balls" of clay, yet contains other balls of clay. The Koran says Jesus did not die, but only pretended to be dead. Since Jesus' spirit did not die (it was given to His Father's hands), one can almost see a way this could happen. Whatever we prove must certainly be applicable proof against Islam.

So you are suggesting that because Jesus assumes a fleshly posture, he also at that point ceased to be God. I this what you are saying?

Bowman · Aug 17, 2013

cfultz3 said:

Malek Yahweh is God in the OT.

Moses understood this...

cfultz3 · Aug 17, 2013

Bowman said:

If they viewed the Malak Yahweh as distinct from Yahweh, that is, as a pre-incarnation of the Word, then what keeps them from accepting Jesus as that Malak Yahweh?

The Malak Yahweh: Jesus, the Divine Messenger of the Old Testament [Part 1]

directline2iam · Aug 17, 2013

marrion said:

THECORRECT UNDERSTANDING OF THE GODHEAD

INTRODUCTION

God, all throughout the Old Testament did not have a body, but appeared to the people in different forms, such as the Burning Bush to Moses, the Cloud by day, and the Pillar of Fire by night, to the children of Israel. Though He sent His angels to many who appeared as men, but no one ever saw God in physical form until Jesus Christ was born.

John 1:18 says, “No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared Him”.
GOD IS A SPIRIT
The Scripture states that, “God is a Spirit; and they that worship Him, must worship Him in Spirit and in Truth” (John 4:24). In Isaiah 43 and 45, we can read that God the Father said that He alone is God... "And [there is] no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; [there is] none beside Me."(Isa. 45:21)"Before Me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after Me. I, [even] I, [am] the LORD; and beside me [there is] No Saviour." (Isa. 43:10-11)
In these scriptures we can clearly see that there is only one God, (not two or three as others believe) for in His very First Commandment, Elohim (the self-existing One) solemnly said that "Thou shalt have NO other gods before Me..." (Exo. 20:3)

GOD'S THOUGHTS AND ATTRIBUTES
Way back in eternity, before there ever was a star, a moon, or a galaxy, Elohim has eternal thoughts and attributes that He wanted to express and manifest for His own pleasure and glorification. He hath seen all things from the beginning, for He is infinite and all knowing.
Elohim wanted to be God. The word "God" means "an object of worship". But there was no one that worships Him at that time and so He then created the angels first, so that He as God is worshipped and is proclaimed as God almighty.
Elohim wanted to become a Father. Yet how can He be called a "Father" when He Himself has no children? And so in God's mind He wanted to create sons and daughters unto himself so that He could become their Father. Thus, we know that this plan of God was fulfilled and manifested later on. He created Adam and from him He took Eve. It's a type of the church which was taken from the body of Christ, for the Bible says, "we are flesh of His flesh, and bones of His bones."
Elohim wanted to become a Saviour. But you see, how can He become a Saviour when there's no one to be saved in the first place? There has to be a fallen entity first before He could ever display his attributes as a Saviour. We can therefore conclude from this case that God hath foreseen the fall of man and He permitted man to fall from grace in order for God to fulfill His majestic plan of saving them. Man was placed as a "free moral agency" to choose for himself between good and evil. Adam and Eve fell for the wrong choice. But God prepared the solution for sin even before the foundation of the world. Revelation 13:8 tells us that the "Lamb was slain "before" the foundation of the world" to act as an atonement for sin. And God wrote our names (God's elected seed) in the Lamb's Book of Life even before man could ever commit sin. Christ came to redeem these predestinated seed.
Elohim wanted to be a Healer, too. Yet how can He become a Healer when there's nobody sick? There has to be a sickness first before He could be a Healer. Which was first, the sickness or the Healer? We can then conclude from here that sicknesses and afflictions are part of God's permissive will to man in order to show and manifest to mankind His attributes of being a Healer. Psalms 103:2-3 states, "Bless the LORD, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits: who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth ALL thy diseases." Consider the afflictions of Job, blind Bartimaeous, the woman with the blood issue, and more. They just declared the glory and healing power of God and served as testimonials of God's grace through each generation.
God also wanted to manifest Himself as a King, as a Priest, and as a Judge. So there has to be a kingdom set-up, a holy tabernacle set-up, and a judgment bar set up. These are His eternal thoughts and intentions before the foundation of the world, to get glory unto Himself.

Yet God knew that as a Spirit He will never be able to fulfill these plans of his without having a "body" that will act out His plans. For example, it is written in His Law that “Almost all things are by the Law purged with blood; and without the shedding of blood is no remission” (Hebrews 9:22). Redemption requires death. Can a Spirit bleed and die?
It takes BLOOD, therefore, to pay the penalty for sin. Yet no man's blood, no angel, no priest, no animal's blood, was ever worthy to redeem man in his fallen estate. God must do it Himself, for there is no Saviour but Him alone. He must do it in order to show that He alone is the ONLY Redeemer. In Isaiah 45:22, God said, “Look unto Me, and be ye saved, for I AM God, and there is none else.” “Thou shalt know no God but Me; for there is NO SAVIOUR BESIDE ME”. (Hosea 13:4).
God is the only Saviour there is. The key to the whole mystery of the Godhead is this. God knew that He, as God, could not die and bleed in the Spirit, for a Spirit has no flesh and bones. His own law required blood for an atonement.

So in order for God to fulfill His plan of redeeming mankind, He had to put on a veil of flesh, in order to taste death and pay the penalty for His own law, to justify the ungodly. That is to fulfill Romans 3:28, “Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.” “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast” (Eph.2:8,9).

THOUGHTS EXPRESSED INTO "WORD"
God, then began to express Himself from eternity, by His spoken Word. Time began when God started speaking. This great Fountain of Spirit which had no beginning or no end, began to express His attributes by the Spoken Word. Out of the existence of the Father went out the "Logos", which was the Word, which was God's "Theophany". It was was a visible body of the great Jehovah God going forth in the beginning. It was called the "Logos", which in the original Greek, means “something spoken; which includes the thoughts of the Speaker".

That Logos was God's "express image". It was God Himself made into Word. That Logos that went out from the great eternal Spirit was called the "Son" of God. It was the only visible form that this Spirit had. And It was a "theophany", which means a celestial body, and that body was like a "man".
Time, then, began when that "Logos" came out of God, as evident in the succeeding scripture. John 1:1-3, "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by Him; and without Him was not any thing made that was made” ..And the Word was made flesh and dwelt amongst us.” (John 1:1-3, 14).

From that "theophany" is where man was also created by God, after His own image, which was a "spirit-man":
"And God said, Let US make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."(Genesis 1:26,27).

The "Let US make man in OUR own image" in the above verse refers to God the Father (the great Spirit) talking, speaking to His Theophany Body, which was His begotten Son. We can see here that man was created from that pattern, with both spirit and body realms. We were never created from the image of angels.
Rev. Branham taught this: "You will never be an Angel. God made Angels, but God made man. And what God does is off of God, which is as eternal as God is. And man's just as eternal as his Creator, because he was made from eternity. (HEBREWS CHAPTER 5 AND 6, JEFF, IN 57-0908M). "Brother, I'm telling you; I believe in the resurrection. God will speak one of these days, and we'll come forth in His image and in His likeness, men and women, not angels, but men and women. God made Angels; we'll never be Angels. We wasn't made for Angels. Men are made men. God made man. He intends him to be man. It's God's pattern." (EL.SHADDAI.title LA.CA 59-0416)
The "theophany", which was the Son, is also what's spoken of in Colossians 1:15-17, which reads: "Who is the IMAGE of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by Him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: and He is before all things, and by him all things consist."
That theophany of God was then made FLESH on earth later on in the Person of Jesus Christ Jesus through the womb of Mary.
Revelation 3:14 speaks of Jesus as the "Beginning of the Creation of God". That is Who the Lord Jesus says He is. But those words don't mean exactly as they sound to us. Just taking them the way they sound has made some people (in fact multitudes of people) get the idea that Jesus was the first creation of God, making Him lower than Godhead. Then this first creation created all the rest of the universe and whatsoever it contains. But that is NOT right. You know that doesn't line up with the rest of the Bible. The words are, "He is the BEGINNER or AUTHOR of the creation of God."

Now we know for a surety that Jesus is God, very God. He is the Creator. John 1:3 "All things were made by Him, and without Him was not any thing made that was made." He is the One of Whom it is said, Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth". Also it says in Exodus 20:11, "For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day." See, there is no doubt that He is the Creator. He was the Creator of a FINISHED PHYSICAL CREATION.

Surely we can see what these words mean now. To have any other interpretation would mean that God created God. How could God be created when He, Himself, is the Creator?
GOD MANIFESTED IN FLESH
And thus, God fulfilled His plan of salvation, the fulfillment which is written in 1 Timothy 3:16 which states: “And without controversy, great is the mystery of Godliness, God was manifest in the flesh.”

When was God manifested in flesh? It was when Jesus Christ was born through a woman; without any resulting sexual act but it was God Himself making both hemoglobin and egg cells in the womb of Mary, God Himself taking the form of a man.

Jesus Christ was the FLESH of God, none other than God Himself creating a BODY of His own. That fleshly BODY was called the “SON”, while the SPIRIT indwelling that body was the “FATHER”. Not two Gods now, but God veiling Himself in FLESH. That’s the reason Jesus said "I and My Father are one." (John 10:30). Philip, the apostle, one time said to Jesus (John 14:8-9), “Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.” And Jesus answered him saying, “ Have I been with you so long and yet hast thou not known Me, Philip? He that hath SEEN ME hath seen the Father.”
The name "Jesus" means "Jehovah has become our Saviour". Jesus was also called “Emmanuel”, meaning, “God WITH us”, God dwelling with men.

When the Father decided to come down as our Saviour, He put on a robe of flesh and planted Himself, as a seed, in the womb of Mary. This seed was to produce the flesh and blood of the Body He would dwell in as the Son, Jesus Christ. Jesus is God becoming man, to redeem man back to Himself. God could not die in the Spirit because He's eternal. But He had to put on a MASK and ACT the part of death. He did die, but He couldn't do it in His God form. He had to do it in SON form, as a Son of Man on earth.
JESUS, THE IMAGE OF THE INVISIBLE GOD
Apostle Paul says this about Jesus in Collosians 2:9-10: “For in HIM all the FULLNESS of the GODHEAD dwells BODILY, and ye are complete in Him, which is the Head of all principality and power”...”In Whom we have REDEMPTION through His BLOOD, even the forgiveness of sins : Who is the IMAGE of the INVISIBLE GOD... And He is before all things, and by Him all things consists” (Collosians 1:14,15,17).

JESUS, therefore, is the EXPRESS IMAGE of the unseen God, God creating a FLESH-BODY of His own. And man could have never seen God except through Jesus Christ, the FLESH of God.
THREE DISPENSATION OF THE ONE GOD
“God ABOVE Us” - that’s how God was known in the Old Testament, in the Fatherhood dispensation. God dwelling in the heavenlies, where no man could ever touch Him.

When the the time for the Sonship dispensation came, fulfilling the prophesy of Isaiah 9:6 which says, “For to us a child is born, for to us a SON is given: the government shall be upon His shoulder; and His Name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty GOD, and everlasting FATHER, Prince of Peace”, these all pertain to the FLESH of God - JESUS, being God Himself becoming Emmanuel, which being interpreted “God WITH us” - God Who can now be touched by the feeling of our infirmities.

It was God also fulfilling Isaiah 53:5, “But He (God) was WOUNDED for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon Him: and by His stripes we are healed” - all fulfilled and completed at the Cross of Calvary.

In these last days, after Jesus has been resurrected and glorified, God has sent us back His Holy Spirit, the Comforter, to indwell every believer. Thus, we are now living in the HOLY GHOST Dispensation.
As 1 Cor. 6:19-20 states, “What? Know ye not that your body is the TEMPLE of the Holy Ghost which is IN YOU, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify GOD IN YOUR BODY, and in your spirit which are God’s.”
THE SPIRIT OF JESUS IN THE CHURCH
JESUS is that self-same Holy Spirit; as He has attested in John 14:18, saying, “I will not leave you comfortless, “I“ (Personal Pronoun) WILL COME TO YOU.” “I will be with you, even IN YOU until the end of the world.” Galatians 4:6 states this, too, “And because ye are sons, God has sent forth the SPIRIT of His SON into your hearts, crying Abba, Father.”

Jesus’ own Spirit is now “God IN Us”, the “Hope of Glory” (Colossians 1:27). It is the SELF-SAME GOD all the time, never changing His power, just changed His form from the heavenly to the earthly, and then back again as the Great Spirit, after having fulfilled His great redemptive story.

He was “GOD ABOVE US” in His Fatherhood dispensation; “GOD WITH US” in His Sonship dispensation; and now “GOD IN US” in the Holy Spirit dispensation.

Jesus said, “ I AM ALPHA AND OMEGA, the Beginning and the Ending, saith the Lord, Which IS, WHICH WAS, and WHICH IS TO COME, THE ALMIGHTY” (Rev.1:8) Not three persons in One God but ONE GOD in three dispensations.

.

You're close, but you've got quite a few things wrong and I even I can see them. WoW, out of the mouths of bab's.

resurrection33 · Aug 17, 2013

Antoni123 said:

[8] Philip said to him, "Lord, show us the Father, and we shall be satisfied."
[9] Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you do not know me, Philip? He who has seen me has seen the Father; how can you say, `Show us the Father'? John 14:8-9 RSV

kenisyes · Aug 17, 2013

oldhermit said:

I'm saying it cannot be proved otherwise from the Scriptures I have seen either in this thread or previously.

directline2iam · Aug 17, 2013

Originally Posted by marrion

Elohim wanted to be God. The word "God" means "an object of worship". But there was no one that worships Him at that time and so He then created the angels first, so that He as God is worshipped and is proclaimed as God almighty. /quote

Since the Only Begotten Son Of God was With God, God the Father already had someone to worship Him.

Elohim wanted to become a Father. Yet how can He be called a "Father" when He Himself has no children? And so in God's mind He wanted to create sons and daughters unto himself so that He could become their Father./quote

Adding to your first mistake about having no one to worship Him as God and your next statement which is also answered in the first statement of yours as you said, He God, created the Angels to worship him. They were also created as the sons of God. Read the book of Job. So Adam and Eve were not created so God would have someone to worship Him or be a son to Him.

Man was placed as a "free moral agency" to choose for himself between good and evil. Adam and Eve fell for the wrong choice./quote

Hardly start reading your post and keep finding all these mistruths, what's up with that?
Adam and Eve did not know good and evil until they ate of the fruit. So they didn't "Choose as you say" between good and evil.

I'm not going to keep reading and finding all these unbiblical made up by human thinking falsehoods. I'm not even going to taint my Spirit with anymore of it.

oldhermit · Aug 17, 2013

kenisyes said:

Then perhaps tomorrow we can examine Phil. 2.

kenisyes · Aug 18, 2013

oldhermit said:

Is it tomorrow yet?

If Jesus did not think it robbery to be equal with God, then what did He think it? If He had to grasp at equality, surely He must have been less at the time?

Is it possible for God to bestow a name greater than His own? If not, then Jesus must have received a name greater than any other name except that of God. Since the name must have been bestowed, does his not prove that at first Jesus' name was less than God?

These are the verses that jumped out at me. Perhaps you have another.

Again, let me remind you, I believe Jesus is God. I just do not believe that you can prove this from the Scriptures in the original texts. I believe this is a realization that must occur to each one, as it did to Peter, and it has occurred in some cultures, but not in others. That's why we have to understand the nature of Jesus better than we now do, so that we can help the other cultures realize it.

Quickfire · Aug 18, 2013

kenisyes said:

Well unless you have some insight we do not then how can you believe that Jesus is God. You must have an angel taking to you or something if you believe Jesus is god From other means.

The scriptures say no one can confess Jesus is lord unless they are guided by the holy spirit, this is biblical and scriptural.
what your saying makes no sense and is confusing you are leaning on your own understanding to suggest that JESUS is god from other means than the scriptures is adding to scripture which is a big no no in the bible.

Quickfire · Aug 18, 2013

I saw a scroll in the right hand of the one who sits on the throne; it was covered with writing on both sides and was sealed with seven seals. [SUP]2 [/SUP]And I saw a mighty angel, who announced in a loud voice, “Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?” [SUP]3 [/SUP]But there was no one in heaven or on earth or in the world below[SUP][a][/SUP] who could open the scroll and look inside it. [SUP]4 [/SUP]I cried bitterly because no one could be found who was worthy to open the scroll or look inside it. [SUP]5 [/SUP]Then one of the elders said to me, “Don't cry. Look! The Lion from Judah's tribe, the great descendant of David, has won the victory, and he can break the seven seals and open the scroll.”

This passage represents john the baptist vision when his spirit left his body

look at this passage we know that lions are king of there herds so does the lion of judah represent Jesus the king of the jews

kenisyes · Aug 18, 2013

Quickfire said:

I John 2:27 proves it is not a no-no. I stated in my first response, that Jesus is God in Greek, Latin and English, but not in Hebrew. This realization came after Scripture was written (ca. 350AD), and is true in my first language and several others I read. It follows from Scripture by understanding who God is, who Jesus is, all of which I learned from Scripture and the Holy Spirit. Reflecting on the language, I can see Jesus is who we call God in certain languages and not in others. My argument here is that since it is not true in all languages, I can understand why some cannot accept it, and we must refine our understanding, so it works for all people.

cfultz3 · Aug 18, 2013

kenisyes said:

I John 2:27 proves it is not a no-no. I stated in my first response, that Jesus is God in Greek, Latin and English, but not in Hebrew. This realization came after Scripture was written (ca. 350AD), and is true in my first language and several others I read. It follows from Scripture by understanding who God is, who Jesus is, all of which I learned from Scripture and the Holy Spirit. Reflecting on the language, I can see Jesus is who we call God in certain languages and not in others. My argument here is that since it is not true in all languages, I can understand why some cannot accept it, and we must refine our understanding, so it works for all people.

I understand you man.....Sometimes it is hard to relay a thought.

Bowman · Aug 18, 2013

cfultz3 said:

The Jewish tanak is full of examples, from their very own prophets, informing them that they worshiped numerous false gods.

We have to ask ourselves the question...what was it that made most of these Hebrews think that more than One God existed in the first place?

The answer is quite obvious...God revealed Himself as Triune - but they could not comprehend it!

Excellent article....

cfultz3 · Aug 18, 2013

Bowman said:

I see, they were blinded (no pun intended) by the number "one". Even for us, it is hard to divide "one" up, seeing that it is whole. But, at least, 1/3rd gives us a part of the whole.

I always found that telling someone about the administrations of God and how that there is but still one God working all things to Himself gives a clearer understanding about this triunity of God. Explaining that that triunity was there in Creation.

But, anywho, thanks for taking your time and explaining to me.

oldhermit · Aug 18, 2013

kenisyes said:

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
In Philippians 2:6, the apostle Paul begins with the acknowledgement that Jesus is God and provides us with a revealed analysis of his redemptive function. Paul does not begin his discussion of Jesus from the vantage point of the incarnation but from that of eternity. What Paul stresses in the first part of this chapter is the example of humility that Jesus modeled for us in his willingness to divest himself of this form for a time on our behalf. This of course does not suggest that he ceased be God. He does not strip himself of deity. I am quite sure that we will never fully understand all that is involved in Jesus’ emptying himself of divine form and equality. All we can rely on is the language of the text. “ἐ[/FONT][FONT=Symbol, serif][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]έ[/FONT][FONT=Symbol, serif][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]” is third person singular aorist first indicative of “[/FONT][FONT=Symbol, serif][/FONT][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]ό[/FONT][FONT=Symbol, serif][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]”
which means to empty or to lay aside. How do we explain that even in the flesh he is still God yet remains so without retaining anything that defines divine nature? Perhaps ‘[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]to lay aside[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]’ offers the best explanation. He lays it aside as one would a garment and in Hebrews chapter one (which we will study in the next lesson) where we will see him take it up again. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
In order for Jesus to fulfill his redemptive mission, he must assume a fleshly posture. We can find at least four reasons for this in scripture. 1) Divine essence cannot die. As man he will die. 2) The requirements of the Law of Moses required a sacrifice of flesh and blood. Divine essence is not made of flesh and blood. 3) His heritage must come from a specific fleshly linage. As God, he has no linage. 4) The demands of the Law were imposed upon man and it required that man fulfill them. The Law required not only that [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]man [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]fulfill its demands but that only a man of the seed of Abraham to whom the Law was given. Thus, a Gentile could never have satisfied the Law, Romans 1:1-5. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
Fulfilling the function of a sacrifice required that he assume the form of a sacrifice. In this metamorphosis, he poured out of himself every expression of deity. Divine essence is now submitted to limitations. As God, these characteristics of essence are, by their very nature, without boundaries or limitations, but as man, he will be subject to all of the same sets of determined relations that limit all men. Divine character is now submitted to vulnerability. As God, he cannot be tempted, but as man, he yields his divine character to the onslaught of Satan. He becomes the second Adam. He exposes his own moral integrity to the same temptations that are common to all men, Hebrews 2:18, 4:15, and 5:2. Yet, unlike Adam, he maintains his integrity all the way to the cross, Hebrews 4:15 and 2:9. He succeeds where Adam failed. He simply never sinned.

[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The word “ἴ[/FONT][FONT=Symbol, serif][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]”s nominative and accusative plural neuter of “ἴ[/FONT][FONT=Symbol, serif][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]” which suggests equality in quantity or quality, Thayers p 307. This is the same language used by Jesus in Matthew 20:12. Here, Jesus relates the parable of the workers in the vineyard. The accusation by those who had labored all day was that the Master was unjust because in giving equal wages to those who had worked fewer hours than they had worked he had granted them “ ἴ[/FONT][FONT=Symbol, serif][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]”[/FONT][FONT=Symbol, serif][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]equal status. Paul now uses this same word to express the nature of Jesus’ divine status. He is equal to God.[/FONT] “ἁ[FONT=Symbol, serif][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]ὸ[/FONT][FONT=Symbol, serif][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]” is the act of seizing, robbery, Thayers p 74. [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Note[/FONT][FONT=Symbol, serif] [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]bene[/FONT][FONT=Symbol, serif][/FONT][FONT=Symbol, serif][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]it is his equality[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]with God that Jesus did not regard as robbery to possess. He did not gain his divine[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]equality by an act of seizure or robbery. This equality is his by right of divine essence. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
Taking the [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]form [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]of a servant is an exchange of [/FONT][FONT=Symbol, serif][/FONT][FONT=Symbol, serif][/FONT][FONT=Segoe UI, sans-serif]ῇ [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]/ nature.[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]He exchanged the essence of God for the essence of man. [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Spirit
clothes itself with flesh, John 1:1-2, Hebrews 2:14 and 10:5-10. This is much more than just a transformation from spirit to flesh. Every attribute that defined him as God will either be submitted to limitations or subjected to vulnerability. Omnipotence yields itself to dependency. The all-sufficient one now becomes [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]fully dependent, Isaiah 12:2, John 5:30 and Matthew 4:1-10. How can we envision the Creator of the universe emptying himself of all power and submitting as an infant into the care of frail, week, virtually helpless man? How can man care for God? To do this would require an absolute dependency upon God as he grows to
manhood. He became subject to all of the same sets of determined relations that are part of all human existence. Omniscience gives way to revelation. He must learn God’s will as a man and submit to it, Hebrews 10:7,[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Deuteronomy 18:18-19, John 12:49-50 and 17-4. Omnipresence confines itself to the limitations of time and space. His Eternal nature is surrendered for mortality - he became subject to death. The transcendent One became an equal among his fleshly brethren, Hebrews 2:17. [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The unified One became the cursed of[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]God, Mark 15:34, Galatians 3:13 and 2Corinthians 5:21. The unchanging One became subject to change. He not only changes form but his fleshly form will also be subject to all of the changes of natural biological processes.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]In keeping with the posture of a [/FONT][FONT=Symbol, serif][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]ύ[/FONT][FONT=Symbol, serif][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]s - [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]servant / slave, Paul says that he did nothing through selfishness; that he did not seek his own glory but regarded others more important than himself.[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]He placed the needs of others above his own. He emptied himself. The servant reserves[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]nothing of himself. He stands stripped of all personal will. All has become completely subjected. This is total surrender of control. Now, he is in the likeness of man. In the beginning, God, this God, created man in his own image, according to his own likeness. Now, this same God steps out of eternity into time to be made in the image of his creation - man. The Creator becomes the creature. The Lord of all becomes the servant of all. The Governor of the universe becomes subordinate to another and all of this by his own [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]will.

[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Humility is not foreign to the character of man, it is intrinsic to it. [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Humility is demonstrated by obedience that characterized the life and ministry of the Lord. He “[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]became [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif].” ‘Became’ suggests a change of status. [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Before assuming the posture of a man, he is not subject to deity as a subordinate creature or even as a lesser member of the triadic unity. This is a process of character development as a [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]man, Matthew 26:52-54.[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]He must learn obedience to the will of God as a man, completely subject to [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]the will of the Father, Hebrews 5:8-9. He did not allow his status as Son of God to exempt him from the obligation of obedience. What then did he learn about obedience? Gerald Paden of the Sunset International Bible Institute suggests there are at least eight things that scripture reveals about this learning process. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1. He learned its duty - Even though he was a son - This is the duty of sonship.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]2. He learned its necessity - The cup cannot pass unless he drinks it.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]3. He learned its demand - All that I am and all that I have – This is total [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]consecration.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]4. He learned its cost - For a time, it cost him even heaven itself. In the end, even [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]his human life. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]5. He learned its integrity - He kept the law of God all the way to the cross.
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]6. He learned its honor - He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]7. He learned its reward - He was highly exalted and given a name that is above [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]every name. Because he learned all these things, he is now able to lay hold of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]the reward of obedience. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]8. “[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Even death on the cross.[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]” This is the last, greatest act of humility. It is the [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]culmination of everything in the purpose of God to redeem man back to himself. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
This is the last[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]full measure[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]of devotion for loves sake. He does not even[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]consider equality with man a[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]thing to hold on to. He even pours himself out to [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]become the cursed of the cursed, Galatians 3:13 and Deuteronomy 21:23.
[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]“[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Therefore[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]” (because he humbled himself) God highly exalted him, 9.

Hebrews chapter one is the conclusion of this exaltation which is represented in at least eight points of divine reinstatement which perhaps we can look at later if you are someone else would be interested.

[/FONT]

Is Jesus God?

cfultz3

Guest

kenisyes

Guest

Senior Member

kenisyes

Guest

Senior Member

Banned

cfultz3

Guest

Banned

Banned

kenisyes

Guest

Banned

Senior Member

kenisyes

Guest

Quickfire

Guest

Quickfire

Guest

kenisyes

Guest

cfultz3

Guest

Banned

cfultz3

Guest

Senior Member