Does God expect the Jews to stop Jewish rituals when they know Jesus?

[presidente]

If the apostles continue with Jewish customs, can we really say that it was wrong? Jesus had said that the scribes and Pharisees sat in Moses seat, and to do what they commanded.

Also consider this from Acts 21
[SUP]18 [/SUP]The next day Paul and the rest of us went to see James, and all the elders were present. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Paul greeted them and reported in detail what God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. [SUP]20 [/SUP]When they heard this, they praised God. Then they said to Paul: “You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law. [SUP]21 [/SUP]They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs.

(NIV)

 

[crossnote]

God doesn't expect Jews to drop their rituals any more than He expects Gentiles to adopt them.

 

[homwardbound]

Scripture addresses this problem only as concerning whether the gentiles had to stop doing things like eating pork and do such things as being circumcised. Do you think scripture says it is wrong to worship in this way?

Please don”t post over and over that these things don’t save. We all know that. The Jews who knew Christ knew that. James the Just, brother of Christ was head of the Christians in Jerusalem, and James certainly knew that. That isn’t the question. The question is whether they are forbidden by God to worship that way.

I think it is the motive behind whatever a man does, that God does God's judgment. Are you in joy doing what you do?, Have you received the righteousness beyond Human understanding?
Well each that reads here knows in themselves as to what is truth in them or not, along with God, and truthfully nothing else matters
If you, I and anyone else has received the below verse then:
Ephesians 1:6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Since one knows they have been accepted in God, why would we ever need acceptance from anyone else?

 

[homwardbound]

I like that you get right down to bible facts! We are to know just what Christ made obsolete and obey!

Here is the history of what made me wonder. I put up a mezuzah when I read about it in Deut. My minister and his wife came for lunch and told me I was nothing but a Pharisee. (We still love each other) So I got out every book I could find about the effect of living a Jewish lifestyle, even on those who didn't know Christ. Spent a day in Powell's book store, even.

I can find nothing negative about the effects of that lifestyle, and many many positive effects. When they don't know Christ, we know what that does, but I was looking only for negative effects of their lifestyle. Yet, if I mention it on cc up comes "Judaism" (dirty word), new covenant, lots of things and I haven't been able to understand. I am hoping this thread will make it clear. Why can't we worship in this way, does not using it for salvation to replace Christ make it wrong?

Yes to use anything to replace Christ is out of alignment, for
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

So today it all depends on what I do with that between God and me, now when one runs into the problem that you are having, because of their thoughts about it. maybe read Romans 14, and do not take it as just about food please.
It is much deeper that just food. Food was the subject that was addressed at that time, where people were having trouble about it and divisions were being made from this. So see it as God shows you the depth. Thanks Homwarbound

 

[homwardbound]

Thanks so much for the thoughtful input and the scriptures that applies.

I am still bothered by two things. One that many of these things are physical examples of spiritual truths, and they come from God's word. I can understand that circumcision, done to us not of our decision, and a mark of putting on the spiritual can best be done with our determination to follow God. But excluding some of the other things God suggests is harder for me to reason through. Why not use the physical illustrations of the spiritual to lead us to the spiritual?

Something else that bothers me is the lack of discipline in the church. We are to be led by the spirit but so often it leads us nowhere that is tangible. We live in a body, when the spirit does not reach us in the body with deeds, it seems only half there. We are not to be part of the world, yet there is little in a Christian's life to show our neighbors that is so other than we are good people. So is the neighbor who lives without God. Many people who are true Christians can go for days without giving God a thought, busy with the tasks of living. That could not be if part of worship was included in eating, dressing, washing, and everything we do as God suggested we do.

For some, it is carried so far that all the "law of Moses" is out, people walk with nothing to guide them, so the demons walk with them and nothing stops them. They are told the HS stops them, but if the HS is to be stopped from any physical manifestations of that spirit, it doesn't work.


God is truth, all of scripture is truth. We can see that truth play out in how the world is. Yet I do no see the lack of doing anything God suggests as worship play out in good for us in the world.

[h=3]Acts 17:27-29[/h]Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

[SUP]27 [/SUP]that they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: [SUP]28 [/SUP]for in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. [SUP]29 [/SUP]Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.
Romans 5:1
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

 

[john832]

You mentioned kosher diet and circumcision; surely there's nothing wrong with those. If the Jerusalem Temple is rebuilt and sacrifices resume there (a possibility today), any Jew participating in that would of course be rejecting the sacrifice made by Jesus Christ, so that ritual would definitely be wrong.

What other rituals are you thinking about?

There is a difference between kosher and clean meats.

kosher:

Food that conforms to strict Jewish biblical laws pertaining not only to the type of food that may be eaten, but to the kinds of food that can be combined at one meal. For example, meat and dairy products may not be mixed. In order to meet kosher standards and receive the kosher seal, food must be prepared under a rabbi's supervision. In addition to the kinds of animals considered kosher (pigs and rabbits are among the nonkosher group), the laws also decree that animals be fed organically grown food and killed in the most humane manner possible. The word "kosher" is a derivation of the Herbrew word kasher, meaning "proper" or "pure."

from: Kosher - Kitchen Dictionary - Food.com

These requirements are not found in the Bible.

clean:

Some animal are inherently clean, some are not. We find the determination in Lev 11 and Deut 14.

Paul taught a clean diet...

1Ti 4:4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
1Ti 4:5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

Again, this refers to Lev 11 and Deut 14.

Circumcision is still in force today. It has changed in the way it is to be practiced, but it still must be done...

Act 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
Act 15:2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.

And the determination of James (the head of the N.T. church), under the direction of the Holy Spirit was that they need not be circumcised in the flesh.

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Paul agreed completely with this. One must be circumcised of the heart, not the flesh.

 

[4enlightment]

Thanks so much for the thoughtful input and the scriptures that applies.

I am still bothered by two things. One that many of these things are physical examples of spiritual truths, and they come from God's word. I can understand that circumcision, done to us not of our decision, and a mark of putting on the spiritual can best be done with our determination to follow God. But excluding some of the other things God suggests is harder for me to reason through. Why not use the physical illustrations of the spiritual to lead us to the spiritual?

John 3:12I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?

Matthew 23:23“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.

Mark 2:27Then he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.

Matthew 6:11Give us today our daily bread.

Matt 13 31 He told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and planted in his field. 32 Though it is the smallest of all seeds, yet when it grows, it is the largest of garden plants and becomes a tree, so that the birds come and perch in its branches.”
33 He told them still another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like yeast that a woman took and mixed into about sixty pounds of flour until it worked all through the dough.”


The Sabbath was made so that men can have a restful period to get to know God; and on that day, God will take care of their need andso that they doesn't have focus on work. It should have change from one day out of a week into a daily task.


Something else that bothers me is the lack of discipline in the church. We are to be led by the spirit but so often it leads us nowhere that is tangible. We live in a body, when the spirit does not reach us in the body with deeds, it seems only half there. We are not to be part of the world, yet there is little in a Christian's life to show our neighbors that is so other than we are good people. So is the neighbor who lives without God. Many people who are true Christians can go for days without giving God a thought, busy with the tasks of living. That could not be if part of worship was included in eating, dressing, washing, and everything we do as God suggested we do.

For some, it is carried so far that all the "law of Moses" is out, people walk with nothing to guide them, so the demons walk with them and nothing stops them. They are told the HS stops them, but if the HS is to be stopped from any physical manifestations of that spirit, it doesn't work.


God is truth, all of scripture is truth. We can see that truth play out in how the world is. Yet I do no see the lack of doing anything God suggests as worship play out in good for us in the world.

Hebrews 6:1Therefore let us move beyond the elementary teachings about Christ and be taken forward to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God,

Matthew 4:10Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’”

John 4:23Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.



Matthew 6:21For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

Matt 19 21 Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
22 When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.

 

[john832]

Hebrews 6:1Therefore let us move beyond the elementary teachings about Christ and be taken forward to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God,

These six primary doctrines are the foundation one should lay. We should not have to go back and redo this time and time again, these are the elementary (basic) teachings Christianity is founded on.

Matthew 4:10Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’”

John 4:23Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.[

Christ gave us that teaching in Mat 5, 6 and 7 as well as throughout the gospels.

Matthew 6:21For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

Matt 19 21 Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
22 When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.

Why not quote all of it?

Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Mat 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Mat 19:19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 19:20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

Now if you want to relate this back to Heb 6, the keeping of the Commanments is the basic teaching, and Christ was offering a discipleship to this young man if he could let go of the gods (his wealth and possessions) that were coming between him and God.

 

[Grandpa]

If you are taught there are 5 steps to enjoying an ice cream and are told that you must practice these steps once a week on the same day each week, you probably get pretty good at the 5 steps after a while.


If you are given an actual ice cream on one of those weeks you understand fully the 5 steps.


But after you have that ice cream practicing the 5 steps doesn't make a lot of sense. It makes more sense to get the actual ice cream.


There's nothing like the real thing, baby. Nothing like the real thing.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Scripture addresses this problem only as concerning whether the gentiles had to stop doing things like eating pork and do such things as being circumcised. Do you think scripture says it is wrong to worship in this way?

Please don”t post over and over that these things don’t save. We all know that. The Jews who knew Christ knew that. James the Just, brother of Christ was head of the Christians in Jerusalem, and James certainly knew that. That isn’t the question. The question is whether they are forbidden by God to worship that way.

I think Hebrews and galations speak to this question quite plainly.

Scripture got on the jews for trying to return to their ritual after they found the fulfilment of those rituals in Christ

 

[Ariel82]

Galatians 2:11-13

New Living Translation (NLT)

Paul Confronts Peter

11 But when Peter came to Antioch, I had to oppose him to his face, for what he did was very wrong.12 When he first arrived, he ate with the Gentile Christians, who were not circumcised. But afterward, when some friends of James came, Peter wouldn’t eat with the Gentiles anymore. He was afraid of criticism from these people who insisted on the necessity of circumcision. 13 As a result, other Jewish Christians followed Peter’s hypocrisy, and even Barnabas was led astray by their hypocrisy.


I don't know that keeping any of the rituals would be wrong unless they are in some how substitute for what Jesus did or if you ascribe power to it that belongs to God.

I think Jesus expects people to stop being hypocrites when they follow Jesus.

For people to understand what Jesus said:

Matthew 15:11 Not what goes into the mouth defiles a man; but what comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man.”

the Pharisees and scribes wanted to kill Jesus because He taught many of their customs were NOT what God wanted them to follow and His establishment of the New covenant did NOT include dietary laws or Sabbath laws, or animal sacrifice or keeping the Feasts or many things which are still in modern day Jewish customs.

Did Jesus expect Jews to stop worshiping at the Temple and sacrificing animals during the many Feasts?

If you say yes to that, would that not be an example of a "jewish ritual" Jesus expects Jews to give up?

why is it so hard to believe that there are others as well?

The Veil has been torn for a reason.

 

[4enlightment]

These six primary doctrines are the foundation one should lay. We should not have to go back and redo this time and time again, these are the elementary (basic) teachings Christianity is founded on.



Christ gave us that teaching in Mat 5, 6 and 7 as well as throughout the gospels.





Why not quote all of it?

Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Mat 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Mat 19:19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 19:20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

Now if you want to relate this back to Heb 6, the keeping of the Commanments is the basic teaching, and Christ was offering a discipleship to this young man if he could let go of the gods (his wealth and possessions) that were coming between him and God.

The point that I was trying to make is that the man has great wealth and which he treasured it more than God, and it is written to worship the lord your God and serve Him only; but the man seem to worship money over God and served it very well. We all think that worshipping is getting on our knees and praising something or being, but worshipping only comes from the heart. When a person bow down to something, is when a person is weak from emotions, but people has dropped to their knees as a pattern and worship as a ritual. But the Spirit of God will cause them to truly worship God in the manner that He desires them to be. It is not going to be any phony worshippers; this time when a person dropped to their knees, they'll be overwhelm with emotions.

Matthew 19:8Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning.

Matthew 23:12For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.

 

[crossnote]

There's nothing like the real thing, baby. Nothing like the real thing.

Now I'm groovin, yeah, now-I-am-groooovin.

 

[zone]

maybe time for a parallel thread:

Re: Does God expect the Gentiles to take up Jewish rituals and pretend they are jewish when they know Jesus?

it might include things like:

- what is a jewish ritual?
- what does the unbelieving world see when they look at gentiles performing jewish rituals, when with a few exceptions, people who identify as primarily jewish are also unbelievers.
- do any of those rituals performed by unbelieving jewish persons point anyone to Jesus Christ? if they are not leading unbelievers to Christ, why would believers who are not jewish imitate them?

stuff like that.

maybe the focus of such a thread would be to find out what Judaism post 70AD has to do with anything that can point to Jesus. the answer would be nothing.
so no need for a thread, i reckon.

since no post by me is completely set for ridicule and scoffing without something from wikipedia, here it is:

The sages of the Talmud see a direct link between themselves and the Pharisees, and historians generally consider Pharisaic Judaism to be the progenitor of Rabbinic Judaism, that is normative, mainstream Judaism after the destruction of the Second Temple. All mainstream forms of Judaism today consider themselves heirs of Rabbinic Judaism and, ultimately, the Pharisees.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharisees < click

oh that was hard.

 

[RedTent]

When people dress in Christian clothes, but don't know Christ or what it's like to be taught and led by the holy spirit, they need something that has an appearance of godliness to give order to their lives and 'guide' them.

One poster brought up the wall between Jew and gentile. The wall between knowing Christ and not accepting that Christ lived with us as a man is a huge wall that can only be bridged by judging only the blindness and not the man. But the gentile has made the wall higher than that, I am seeing a need to tear it down. As I listen for the Lord in my prayer times, I seem to hear it. In my bible study times, it is pointed out to me.

When people dress up in Christian clothes and pretend to be Christian it does not make him Christian, any more than doing the acts God suggested to us makes them Christian. We all know that and Christ pointed it out to us, too. But we have decided that we should not, as Christians, put on any Christian clothes. I don't think that decision is profitable for us. We can be Christian without the clothes, scripture is definite about that. But to refuse the clothes because it would make us appear Christian seems juvenile and silly to me.

We have been made blind to these ideas for over 2,000 years. I very recently saw my Christian walk this way, and I did because I met others who told me of this. I checked with the word and saw it could be right. But for those opposed to this idea, the Lord would have to guide you. Most Jews cannot see that the Messiah has come, and most Christians have a blindness to the idea of making their worship visible to all.

 

[zone]

One poster brought up the wall between Jew and gentile. The wall between knowing Christ and not accepting that Christ lived with us as a man is a huge wall that can only be bridged by judging only the blindness and not the man. But the gentile has made the wall higher than that, I am seeing a need to tear it down. As I listen for the Lord in my prayer times, I seem to hear it. In my bible study times, it is pointed out to me.

When people dress up in Christian clothes and pretend to be Christian it does not make him Christian, any more than doing the acts God suggested to us makes them Christian. We all know that and Christ pointed it out to us, too. But we have decided that we should not, as Christians, put on any Christian clothes. I don't think that decision is profitable for us. We can be Christian without the clothes, scripture is definite about that. But to refuse the clothes because it would make us appear Christian seems juvenile and silly to me.

We have been made blind to these ideas for over 2,000 years. I very recently saw my Christian walk this way, and I did because I met others who told me of this. I checked with the word and saw it could be right. But for those opposed to this idea, the Lord would have to guide you. Most Jews cannot see that the Messiah has come, and most Christians have a blindness to the idea of making their worship visible to all.

so, the theory is, insult the jews by acting/imitating out their empty religion, without just having the guts to be spat upon by speaking the Offense of the Cross, hoping for conviction.

what i actually read here is nothing about Christian clothes, because what you are recommending is jewish clothes.
when it suits your purpose to say the Christian faith was not Christian from Eden onward, you do so.
now when it needs to be christian for the purpose of slamming, you do so.

i'm fascinated by the way we have to change horses in mid-stream trying to pin this down.

there is NO CONNECTION between Judaism today and Jesus Christ.
they are antithetical to each other.

at enmity. the two are at enmity. the religions (if we can call the christian faith that for argument's sake).

you do not bring an unbelieving Muslim to repentance and faith in Jesus Christ by dressing in Muslim clothing and observing islamic rituals.

you preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ crucified and let the chips fall where they may.

Christianity is not Judaism anymore than it is Islam.

but the cult threads are hot of late.

 

[tribesman]

...you do not bring an unbelieving Muslim to repentance and faith in Jesus Christ by dressing in Muslim clothing and observing islamic rituals.

you preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ crucified and let the chips fall where they may.

Christianity is not Judaism anymore than it is Islam.

but the cult threads are hot of late.

This cannot be underlined strongly enough.

Dress and act muslim to "win" muslims? Ridiculous!

 

[4enlightment]

maybe time for a parallel thread:

Re: Does God expect the Gentiles to take up Jewish rituals and pretend they are jewish when they know Jesus?

it might include things like:

- what is a jewish ritual?
- what does the unbelieving world see when they look at gentiles performing jewish rituals, when with a few exceptions, people who identify as primarily jewish are also unbelievers.
- do any of those rituals performed by unbelieving jewish persons point anyone to Jesus Christ? if they are not leading unbelievers to Christ, why would believers who are not jewish imitate them?

stuff like that.

maybe the focus of such a thread would be to find out what Judaism post 70AD has to do with anything that can point to Jesus. the answer would be nothing.
so no need for a thread, i reckon.

since no post by me is completely set for ridicule and scoffing without something from wikipedia, here it is:

The sages of the Talmud see a direct link between themselves and the Pharisees, and historians generally consider Pharisaic Judaism to be the progenitor of Rabbinic Judaism, that is normative, mainstream Judaism after the destruction of the Second Temple. All mainstream forms of Judaism today consider themselves heirs of Rabbinic Judaism and, ultimately, the Pharisees.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharisees < click

oh that was hard.

Romans 2:27The one who is not circumcised physically and yet obeys the law will condemn you who, even though you have the written code and circumcision, are a lawbreaker.

Gal 5 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery. (who follows the laws are slaves)
2 Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3 Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5 For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

 

[crossnote]

One poster brought up the wall between Jew and gentile. The wall between knowing Christ and not accepting that Christ lived with us as a man is a huge wall that can only be bridged by judging only the blindness and not the man. But the gentile has made the wall higher than that, I am seeing a need to tear it down. As I listen for the Lord in my prayer times, I seem to hear it. In my bible study times, it is pointed out to me.
*

Ephesians 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

I don't think tearing down that wall is your job unless you are trying to resacrifice Christ.
Please, His Work is sufficient why belittle it?

 

[mpaper345]

[SUP]14 [/SUP]Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ(Colossians 2:14-17).


When the Jews accept Jesus they should stop all physical ordinances that was practiced in the Old Testament.The Old Testament physical ordinances was only a shadow of things to come,and when you have the Holy Spirit you are part of the body of Christ which Jesus took those physical ordinances out of the way.