Does God expect the Jews to stop Jewish rituals when they know Jesus?

[RedTent]

Scripture addresses this problem only as concerning whether the gentiles had to stop doing things like eating pork and do such things as being circumcised. Do you think scripture says it is wrong to worship in this way?

Please don”t post over and over that these things don’t save. We all know that. The Jews who knew Christ knew that. James the Just, brother of Christ was head of the Christians in Jerusalem, and James certainly knew that. That isn’t the question. The question is whether they are forbidden by God to worship that way.

 

[Houly]

You mentioned kosher diet and circumcision; surely there's nothing wrong with those. If the Jerusalem Temple is rebuilt and sacrifices resume there (a possibility today), any Jew participating in that would of course be rejecting the sacrifice made by Jesus Christ, so that ritual would definitely be wrong.

What other rituals are you thinking about?

 

[RedTent]

I like that you get right down to bible facts! We are to know just what Christ made obsolete and obey!

Here is the history of what made me wonder. I put up a mezuzah when I read about it in Deut. My minister and his wife came for lunch and told me I was nothing but a Pharisee. (We still love each other) So I got out every book I could find about the effect of living a Jewish lifestyle, even on those who didn't know Christ. Spent a day in Powell's book store, even.

I can find nothing negative about the effects of that lifestyle, and many many positive effects. When they don't know Christ, we know what that does, but I was looking only for negative effects of their lifestyle. Yet, if I mention it on cc up comes "Judaism" (dirty word), new covenant, lots of things and I haven't been able to understand. I am hoping this thread will make it clear. Why can't we worship in this way, does not using it for salvation to replace Christ make it wrong?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Scripture addresses this problem only as concerning whether the gentiles had to stop doing things like eating pork and do such things as being circumcised. Do you think scripture says it is wrong to worship in this way?

Please don”t post over and over that these things don’t save. We all know that. The Jews who knew Christ knew that. James the Just, brother of Christ was head of the Christians in Jerusalem, and James certainly knew that. That isn’t the question. The question is whether they are forbidden by God to worship that way.

gentiles were nowhere commanded to not eat pork...

 

[djness]

Galatians 2:11-13

New Living Translation (NLT)

Paul Confronts Peter

11 But when Peter came to Antioch, I had to oppose him to his face, for what he did was very wrong.12 When he first arrived, he ate with the Gentile Christians, who were not circumcised. But afterward, when some friends of James came, Peter wouldn’t eat with the Gentiles anymore. He was afraid of criticism from these people who insisted on the necessity of circumcision. 13 As a result, other Jewish Christians followed Peter’s hypocrisy, and even Barnabas was led astray by their hypocrisy.


I don't know that keeping any of the rituals would be wrong unless they are in some how substitute for what Jesus did or if you ascribe power to it that belongs to God.

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

God grants believers a lot of freedom...within reason of course...

this includes the freedom to choose whatever fitting 'rituals' and observances best remind us personally of God's truths...

for example christians...both jewish and gentile...are free but never obligated to...

...celebrate christmas
...celebrate easter
...hold a passover seder
...set up a sukkah and celebrate tabernacles
...observe the sabbath
...worship on sunday
...offer a tithe
...offer something different
...pray with folded hands
...pray with raised hands
...make the sign of the cross
...wear tassels on their clothes
...and so on

 

[danschance]

I am not Jewish but as a Christian I am enamored of Jewish traditions, even though I am not bound to them. I have attended a few Seders, I have a Tallit and a Mezuzah on my door post. I simply enjoy these things without any compulsion. I enjoy them of my own free will in Christ.

 

[BernardW]

Galatians 5 says
5 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. [SUP]4 [/SUP]You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. [SUP]5 [/SUP]For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope. [SUP]6 [/SUP]For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

My reading of this is that if you think following the old law helps in any way, you are mistaken and alienated from Christ. It may not hurt to continue to follow the old law out of habit, as long as you recognize it has no value and the “only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.”

 

[4enlightment]

Scripture addresses this problem only as concerning whether the gentiles had to stop doing things like eating pork and do such things as being circumcised. Do you think scripture says it is wrong to worship in this way?

Please don”t post over and over that these things don’t save. We all know that. The Jews who knew Christ knew that. James the Just, brother of Christ was head of the Christians in Jerusalem, and James certainly knew that. That isn’t the question. The question is whether they are forbidden by God to worship that way.

[h=3]Hosea 6:6 For I desire mercy, not sacrifice,[/h] and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings.

 

[josh123]

Scripture addresses this problem only as concerning whether the gentiles had to stop doing things like eating pork and do such things as being circumcised. Do you think scripture says it is wrong to worship in this way?

Please don”t post over and over that these things don’t save. We all know that. The Jews who knew Christ knew that. James the Just, brother of Christ was head of the Christians in Jerusalem, and James certainly knew that. That isn’t the question. The question is whether they are forbidden by God to worship that way.

there eyes aren't open as yet but it will be revealed to them in the end they were purposely blinded so we can come in the gentiles

 

[RedTent]

Thanks so much for the thoughtful input and the scriptures that applies.

I am still bothered by two things. One that many of these things are physical examples of spiritual truths, and they come from God's word. I can understand that circumcision, done to us not of our decision, and a mark of putting on the spiritual can best be done with our determination to follow God. But excluding some of the other things God suggests is harder for me to reason through. Why not use the physical illustrations of the spiritual to lead us to the spiritual?

Something else that bothers me is the lack of discipline in the church. We are to be led by the spirit but so often it leads us nowhere that is tangible. We live in a body, when the spirit does not reach us in the body with deeds, it seems only half there. We are not to be part of the world, yet there is little in a Christian's life to show our neighbors that is so other than we are good people. So is the neighbor who lives without God. Many people who are true Christians can go for days without giving God a thought, busy with the tasks of living. That could not be if part of worship was included in eating, dressing, washing, and everything we do as God suggested we do.

For some, it is carried so far that all the "law of Moses" is out, people walk with nothing to guide them, so the demons walk with them and nothing stops them. They are told the HS stops them, but if the HS is to be stopped from any physical manifestations of that spirit, it doesn't work.


God is truth, all of scripture is truth. We can see that truth play out in how the world is. Yet I do no see the lack of doing anything God suggests as worship play out in good for us in the world.

 

[Tintin]

I guess I just don't see the point in living the Jewish culture, if you're not a Jew.

 

[Angela53510]

I think this tendency was obviously present in the early church - to try and live according to the laws of Moses. And to make Gentiles do the same!

Paul got very upset about it and came to Jerusalem for the first church council in Acts 15

"[SUP]5 [/SUP]But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up and said, “It is necessary to circumcise them and to order them to keep the law of Moses.” Acts 15:5

Then the apostles and elders considered this matter. This is what they said:

"The apostles and the elders were gathered together to consider this matter. [SUP]7 [/SUP]And after there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brothers, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. [SUP]8 [/SUP]And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us, [SUP]9 [/SUP]and he made no distinction between us and them, having cleansed their hearts by faith. [SUP]10 [/SUP]Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?[SUP]11 [/SUP]But we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will.” Acts 15:6-11

In the end, the resolved to do 4 things, most of which do not apply to us today (except the sexual immorality of course! Always abstain from that!)

"Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God, [SUP]20 [/SUP]but should write to them to abstain from the things polluted by idols, and from sexual immorality, and from what has been strangled, and from blood.” Acts 15:19-21

Then they wrote a letter to the Gentile Believers, telling them the above 4 things, and the whole thing was OVER!!

So why, Red Tent, do you keep bringing this up over and over??? It is finished! Jesus finished keeping the Old Testament laws on the cross. Paul brought the other apostles into line and said, "If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well." Acts 15:29b

Please read the New Testament, Judaisers and you will get your answers!

 

[xuanvuive2013]

Jews have their own culture. I like Jewish folk music.

[video=youtube;AeHh9vCN_Mw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AeHh9vCN_Mw[/video]

 

[Abiding]

why the jewish idoltry? what makes a jew soooooooooooooooo different?
really? what are rituals? dont they get repetitive? didnt God talk about that?
dont we worship Him now "in Spirit and Truth?" come on redtent


ask this! what is the point!!!

 

[Abiding]

In Love ...its receiving it.....not! earning it!

 

[psychomom]

Thanks so much for the thoughtful input and the scriptures that applies.

I am still bothered by two things. One that many of these things are physical examples of spiritual truths, and they come from God's word. I can understand that circumcision, done to us not of our decision, and a mark of putting on the spiritual can best be done with our determination to follow God. But excluding some of the other things God suggests is harder for me to reason through. Why not use the physical illustrations of the spiritual to lead us to the spiritual?

Something else that bothers me is the lack of discipline in the church. We are to be led by the spirit but so often it leads us nowhere that is tangible. We live in a body, when the spirit does not reach us in the body with deeds, it seems only half there. We are not to be part of the world, yet there is little in a Christian's life to show our neighbors that is so other than we are good people. So is the neighbor who lives without God. Many people who are true Christians can go for days without giving God a thought, busy with the tasks of living. That could not be if part of worship was included in eating, dressing, washing, and everything we do as God suggested we do.

For some, it is carried so far that all the "law of Moses" is out, people walk with nothing to guide them, so the demons walk with them and nothing stops them. They are told the HS stops them, but if the HS is to be stopped from any physical manifestations of that spirit, it doesn't work.


God is truth, all of scripture is truth. We can see that truth play out in how the world is. Yet I do no see the lack of doing anything God suggests as worship play out in good for us in the world.

I think we all see problems in the Church today. But perhaps it's time you stop judging the Church at large and simply try to deal with individual believers?

Do you think people cannot mindlessly carry out rituals?
I'm pretty sure there's Biblical support for that.

As to this:
For some, it is carried so far that all the "law of Moses" is out, people walk with nothing to guide them

Is the New Testament now nothing?? Are there not a myriad of ways in which it tells us how to walk with the Lord Jesus?

Eph. 2:14-16
For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity.

It seems to me you are trying to reestablish that dividing wall between Jew and Gentile that Christ annulled to bring peace between the two.

Eph. 2:17-22
AND HE CAME AND PREACHED PEACE TO YOU WHO WERE FAR AWAY, AND PEACE TO THOSE WHO WERE NEAR; for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father. so then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household,
having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord,
in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.

Note scripture says the Church is built on the Cornerstone-- Christ, and the Apostles and Prophets (who spoke of the One to come), not the Law of Moses.

 

[Abiding]

fear brings torment...which is the reason folks go back to the old covenant.
fear is the enemy of love. wrong constructs of God ruins our life and health.

 

[loveme1]

If they understand this:

Galatians 5

5 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

'faith which worketh by love'

We know that many boys are circumcised for medical and hygienic purposes, ones faith is not made void if they circumcise their son, it would be the motive of the heart which can not be hid from God for He search them.

If they are circumcising to Keep the law of Moses then i consider that 'faith which worketh by love' is not so.

'heart be established with grace' Hebrews 13.. love that term.

Hebrews 13

15 By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name.
16 But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased.

All in all nothing is hid from God.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

When people dress in Christian clothes, but don't know Christ or what it's like to be taught and led by the holy spirit, they need something that has an appearance of godliness to give order to their lives and 'guide' them.