Pre Trib Rapture Moment 13: What are Post Tribbers afraid of?

[BradC]

Except these Jews were believing Jews and fathers of the church. If there was supposed to be a SECRET rapture of the church BEFORE the Tribulation, don't you think Jesus would have told these early Christians and church leaders, Jewish or not? Oops, so much for the validity of that statement.

Except that the concept of the church was already introduced to the disciples back in Matthew 16 & 18. Peter was one of the four disciples who asked Jesus about the end times and the sign of his coming.

Mark 13:

[SUP]3[/SUP]Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked Him privately, [SUP]4 [/SUP]“Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign when all these things will be fulfilled?”


Matthew 16:

[SUP]18 [/SUP]And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

Matthew 18:

[SUP]17 [/SUP]And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.

Since Jesus clearly announced He was building his church on the ROCK, PETER back in Chapter 16, BEFORE Peter asked the Lord in Matthew 24. "...And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?” again, don't you think it would be a little disingenuous for the Lord to NOT have come clean about this Rapture of the Church? After all, a Rapture of the church prior to the Tribulation would be one heck of a sign of the pending Tribulation, don't you think?

There is NO RAPTURE BEFORE THE TRIBULATION. It is clearly a lie. If I were Satan and I wanted people to believe in me as the Messiah instead of the real Messiah, what would I do? I know, teach dispensationalism and a Pre-Trib Rapture. That way when there is no rapture and the really bad stuff starts the church will be discredited and I get to be the first "Christ" on the scene.

Sorry if I am coming across a little arrogantly, it is just that I was fed this Pre-Trib Rapture lie for 30 years before I finally realized it was just another Santa Claus except this one has many horrible consequences for millions of lives and souls.

I have believed these things for the past 40 years and my conviction has never changed, but rather, I have become fully persuaded in these things as the doctrine of Christ. When Christ mentioned to the disciples about building the church they knew nothing of this mystery. Peter was used first to bring this mystery through the Holy Spirit not only to the Jews gathered at Pentecost but also to the Gentiles gathered at the house of Cornelius. Paul was given a massive amount of doctrine and revelation that pertained to this mystery of Christ and the church and concerning the body of Christ. The Jews in unbelief rejected his teaching the same way they rejected Christ but Paul edified believers in all of the churches throughout Asia Minor. We should make no mistake about this mystery. The disciples before the crucifixion were only concerned about who this man was and how he would restore the kingdom to israel. They knew nothing of this great mystery that was going to be revealed to them as the pillar and ground of the truth. After Pentecost had come the disciples way of thinking was changed forever and only one apostle was specifically called to bring this mystery to the Gentiles. He got lots of heat from others but stayed the course and he was the one that spoke of Israel and their temporary and partial blindness UNTIL the time of the Gentiles has come in. I don't know how you look at that but I see a day of restoration for the house of Israel and the house of Judah with no ifs, ands or buts but a promise to be fulfilled when the time comes.

 

[PlainWord]

I have believed these things for the past 40 years and my conviction has never changed, but rather, I have become fully persuaded in these things as the doctrine of Christ. When Christ mentioned to the disciples about building the church they knew nothing of this mystery. Peter was used first to bring this mystery through the Holy Spirit not only to the Jews gathered at Pentecost but also to the Gentiles gathered at the house of Cornelius. Paul was given a massive amount of doctrine and revelation that pertained to this mystery of Christ and the church and concerning the body of Christ. The Jews in unbelief rejected his teaching the same way they rejected Christ but Paul edified believers in all of the churches throughout Asia Minor. We should make no mistake about this mystery. The disciples before the crucifixion were only concerned about who this man was and how he would restore the kingdom to israel. They knew nothing of this great mystery that was going to be revealed to them as the pillar and ground of the truth. After Pentecost had come the disciples way of thinking was changed forever and only one apostle was specifically called to bring this mystery to the Gentiles. He got lots of heat from others but stayed the course and he was the one that spoke of Israel and their temporary and partial blindness UNTIL the time of the Gentiles has come in. I don't know how you look at that but I see a day of restoration for the house of Israel and the house of Judah with no ifs, ands or buts but a promise to be fulfilled when the time comes.

I agree with pretty much everything you said except Paul never taught a Pre-Trib Rapture. Show me one verse where it is clear from Paul's teachings that the Rapture happens BEFORE the tribulation.

You need to show me at least one passage that proves up any of these three absolute requirements of the Pre-Trib belief.

(1) A passage that explicitly states that the "Rapture" takes place BEFORE the trib.
(2) A passage that discussing a Rapture AND a second coming of Christ.
(3) A passage that shows the Raptured church in Heaven during the Tribulation.

Paul does place a time for the 2nd coming, 2 Thes 2, but this timing is After the Man of Sin is revealed DURING the tribulation. Other places such as 1 Thes 4:15-17, 1 Cor 52, etc, Paul is silent about the timing or says at the last trumpet which sort of leads one to think the 7th trumpets because no other series of trumpets are mentioned in the NT.

So, how can you be so sure there is a Rapture of the Church before the tribulation and not come to the more obvious and logical conclusion of there being one return of Christ which is clearly stated in multiple places as occurring, "Immediately after the Tribulation of those days?"

You also have to reconcile several passages where the Lord is told to stay at the right hand of God until his enemies are made his footstool, Psm 110, Mat 22, Mark 12. How can the Lord leave to do this secret rapture if he is to remain in heaven at the right hand of God? His enemies are not made his footstool until after His wrath is poured out and the beast is thrown into the Lake of Fire along with the False Profit.

 

[PlainWord]

Also Brad, Dear brother in Christ,

If you study Paul's message in Romans 11, it seems clear to me that the church is to become part of Israel, God's chosen people. We are grafted into them, not the other way around. Jesus said that "Salvation is of the Jews" - John 4:22. So how can we now think that the Lord will rip out the newly grafted branches from the Olive Tree and rapture us while leaving His people to go through the Tribulation? His people go through the Tribulation to purify and weed out the unbelievers. We are taught that 2/3 of the Jews will be destroyed but the remaining 1/3 will come to Christ. Zech 13:8-9. Why does the church get spared all this purification when the "church" as a whole is pretty darn sinful and the Lord is providing a ton of warning to the 7 churches in Asia in Rev 1-3?

Christ promises salvation of our souls, not our bodies. He promises us there will be tribulation for those who believe in him. We are told to "take up our cross and follow him" and that we will be hated by all nations. Yet 90% of the church somehow feel, without ANY concrete scripture to back them up, that we are going to be gloriously raptured and get to sit in heaven and watch. I don't get it.

 

[BradC]

Here you go, I hope it helps.

 

[Hoffco]

To Bryan Denlinger I would say, beware of such ugly, condemnation toward our Post tri brethren.
To BradC You are wrong on some of your assumptions on the Rapture: it is not secret and it will judge the earth, it will leave the earth on fire and much destruction. see Mt. 24 Rev 6:12 6th seal is the rap.. 2thess. 2:1-3 is the Rap.
Hoffco

 

[PlainWord]

Hi Brad,

Thanks for the chart. Someone must have ripped mine out of my Bible, because I can't find it, LOL. Anybody can make a chart Brother Brad. I can make a chart that shows I'm related to Mother Teresa but that wouldn't make it so. Let's look at all the scriptures to see if any of them prove any of the three absolute MUSTS for a Pre-Trib Rapture. I will assign an A, B or C to each passage if the passage proves the below requirement.

(A) A passage that explicitly states that the "Rapture" takes place BEFORE the trib.
(B) A passage that discusses a Rapture AND a second coming of Christ, in the same passage.
(C) A passage that shows the Raptured church in Heaven during the Tribulation.

I will then put a Z next to the passage if it is consistent with a Rapture that happens during or after the Tribulation. I will have to do this in two parts because of the size.

John 14:1-3: Z

1 "Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

Romans 8:9 Z

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

1 Cor 1:7 Z

7 so that you come short in no gift, eagerly waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ


1 Cor 15:51-53 Z

51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

1 Cor 16:22 Z

22 If anyone does not love the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be accursed. O Lord, come!

Phil 3:20-21 Z

20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.

Phil 4:5 Z

5 Let your gentleness be known to all men. The Lord is at hand.

Col 3:4 Z

4 When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory.

1 Thes 1:10 Z The reference here is Not about escaping the wrath of God during the tribulation but rather his condemnation wrath. See the preceding verse, "... and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God," You conveniently left out the first part of the sentence.

10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

1 Thes 2:19 Z

19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Is it not even you in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at His coming?

1 Thes 4:13-18 Z

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Thes 5:9 Z The context here is clearly the Day of the Lord, not the Rapture.

9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

1 Thes 5:23 Z

23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.


You see a pattern forming here Brad? The Pre-tribber has found all passages that don't specifically set the time as during the Tribulation and immediately count them all as Pre-Trib verses rather than reaching the obvious conclusion that all verses you cited go together and support the post Trib position which is the classical position taught pretty much exclusively all the way up until 1830.

To quote Don Stuart of Calvary Chapel, "If it is True it is not new and if it's new, it is not true." Ironically, Stuart was discussing Joseph Smith and the Mormans. Smith had visions in the 1820s but moved west in 1831 with his followers. The Pre-Trib rapture theory really didn't get its start until 1830 with John Darby. So Stuart and Calvary Chapel are fine with accepting a new belief that is just one year older than the Morman faith which he denounces.

 

[PlainWord]

Dear Brother Chosen,

I keep thinking about what you said earlier. Let me quote you.

You have to be dispensational. You have to rightly divide the word of truth. When you do that, you will see clearly and begin to understand that the Holy Bible does indeed teach a pre-trib. Rapture.

Post trib rapture will not work. For one to teach a post trib. rapture, one has to lie about Scripture and they have to disobey 2 Timothy 2:15.

So, if I understand you brother, you are suggesting that the Word of God as written is defective. You stated in another post that dispensationalism is scriptural. So, we are to apply a doctrine (dispensationalism) to the Word of God to correct it. So, take the broken word, apply a doctrine that is derived from this broken word to the broken word, then we can understand the Word the way it is supposed to read. How convoluted is that?!?!?!

By doing this exercise and using a man-made chart which Brother Brad provided, all of a sudden we have a Rapture of the Gentile Church BEFORE the Tribulation while God's chosen people Israel suffer along with everyone else. How arrogant is that!?? No wonder the Jewish people don't like the church very much. The first churches were Jewish, exclusively Jewish, then Peter had his revelation to preach to the Gentiles. We then hijack their church, claim the Messiah as our exclusive property, preach that the Jews killed Christ (when it was just a handful of religious leaders responsible), then we trash and kill them (I use "we" loosely) then have the audacity to add a rapture to their Jewish Bible which rescues us but wipes 2/3rd of them out.

Unbelievable heresy this Pre-Trib Rapture!!

 

[BradC]

Hi Brad,

Thanks for the chart. Someone must have ripped mine out of my Bible, because I can't find it, LOL. Anybody can make a chart Brother Brad. I can make a chart that shows I'm related to Mother Teresa but that wouldn't make it so. Let's look at all the scriptures to see if any of them prove any of the three absolute MUSTS for a Pre-Trib Rapture. I will assign an A, B or C to each passage if the passage proves the below requirement.



I will then put a Z next to the passage if it is consistent with a Rapture that happens during or after the Tribulation. I will have to do this in two parts because of the size.

John 14:1-3: Z

1 "Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

Romans 8:9 Z

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

1 Cor 1:7 Z

7 so that you come short in no gift, eagerly waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ


1 Cor 15:51-53 Z

51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

1 Cor 16:22 Z

22 If anyone does not love the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be accursed. O Lord, come!

Phil 3:20-21 Z

20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.

Phil 4:5 Z

5 Let your gentleness be known to all men. The Lord is at hand.

Col 3:4 Z

4 When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory.

1 Thes 1:10 Z The reference here is Not about escaping the wrath of God during the tribulation but rather his condemnation wrath. See the preceding verse, "... and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God," You conveniently left out the first part of the sentence.

10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

1 Thes 2:19 Z

19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Is it not even you in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at His coming?

1 Thes 4:13-18 Z

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Thes 5:9 Z The context here is clearly the Day of the Lord, not the Rapture.

9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

1 Thes 5:23 Z

23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.


You see a pattern forming here Brad? The Pre-tribber has found all passages that don't specifically set the time as during the Tribulation and immediately count them all as Pre-Trib verses rather than reaching the obvious conclusion that all verses you cited go together and support the post Trib position which is the classical position taught pretty much exclusively all the way up until 1830.

To quote Don Stuart of Calvary Chapel, "If it is True it is not new and if it's new, it is not true." Ironically, Stuart was discussing Joseph Smith and the Mormans. Smith had visions in the 1820s but moved west in 1831 with his followers. The Pre-Trib rapture theory really didn't get its start until 1830 with John Darby. So Stuart and Calvary Chapel are fine with accepting a new belief that is just one year older than the Morman faith which he denounces.

We'll have to wait and see but the redeemed of the Lord, who have trusted in the cross do not have any appointment with the great tribulation or with any part of the wrath of God coming upon the earth. If you believe they do, then that is your own prerogative but the Spirit witnesses otherwise. I have nothing more to say on the matter.

 

[PlainWord]

We'll have to wait and see but the redeemed of the Lord, who have trusted in the cross do not have any appointment with the great tribulation or with any part of the wrath of God coming upon the earth. If you believe they do, then that is your own prerogative but the Spirit witnesses otherwise. I have nothing more to say on the matter.

Okay Brad, keep the blinders on my dear friend in Christ. The Spirit doesn't create an event as incredible and amazing a whole new Second Coming of Christ which as I've shown is NOT taught and in direct conflict with the Word of God, of which He of course is a part of the same Trinity. Not one passage that places a rapture before the trib, not one passage that contains 2 returns of Christ and not one passage that shows the raptured church in heaven during the tribulation yet millions of Christians believe in it. Amazing.

Gen 3:1

Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made.

Do you think Satan is just sitting idly by knowing he has but a short time left? No my friend, he has been hard at work. Evolution and the Pre-Trib Rapture theory where popularized within the same decade in the 1830s. Satan created the perfect lie that fooled 90% of the church and Evolution to fool the world.

Satan has set the church up to be totally discredited. He has set his beast and false profit up to do miracles and to have mankind believe in him rather than God. If Jesus came before the Tribulation and raptured tens of millions, don't you think that would get just a little bit of attention? Why would He come in secret before the Trib then in all His glory after the Trib? Do you think Jesus wants to fool the world? If He did, why send His three proclamation angels of Rev 14. Why send His witnesses and the 144,000 to proclaim who He is? His coming for a Pre-Trib Rapture would Proclaim who he is and the Beast and False Profit could NEVER get the people to believe in them.

At the least, I hope you have enough doubt in your head now so that when you find yourself in the Great Tribulation you won't deny Christ and rat out your fellow believers to be beheaded. I pray that you won't be among those who "fall away" and accept the Mark of the Beast, because that is what will happen with so many believers.

I love you in Christ my Dear Friend. Go in Peace.

 

[BradC]

Okay Brad, keep the blinders on my dear friend in Christ. The Spirit doesn't create an event as incredible and amazing a whole new Second Coming of Christ which as I've shown is NOT taught and in direct conflict with the Word of God, of which He of course is a part of the same Trinity. Not one passage that places a rapture before the trib, not one passage that contains 2 returns of Christ and not one passage that shows the raptured church in heaven during the tribulation yet millions of Christians believe in it. Amazing.

Gen 3:1

Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made.

Do you think Satan is just sitting idly by knowing he has but a short time left? No my friend, he has been hard at work. Evolution and the Pre-Trib Rapture theory where popularized within the same decade in the 1830s. Satan created the perfect lie that fooled 90% of the church and Evolution to fool the world.

Satan has set the church up to be totally discredited. He has set his beast and false profit up to do miracles and to have mankind believe in him rather than God. If Jesus came before the Tribulation and raptured tens of millions, don't you think that would get just a little bit of attention? Why would He come in secret before the Trib then in all His glory after the Trib? Do you think Jesus wants to fool the world? If He did, why send His three proclamation angels of Rev 14. Why send His witnesses and the 144,000 to proclaim who He is? His coming for a Pre-Trib Rapture would Proclaim who he is and the Beast and False Profit could NEVER get the people to believe in them.

At the least, I hope you have enough doubt in your head now so that when you find yourself in the Great Tribulation you won't deny Christ and rat out your fellow believers to be beheaded. I pray that you won't be among those who "fall away" and accept the Mark of the Beast, because that is what will happen with so many believers.

I love you in Christ my Dear Friend. Go in Peace.

Considering just the time of tribulation coming upon the earth, followed by the second coming of Christ, what kind of expectation do you have as a member of the church and body of Christ? Is your expectation one of great tribulation that will come upon believers that make up the church? Will believers be divided and have to flee into the mountains for safety? If you remain alive on the earth will you be subject to the antichrist, the beast, the false prophet and all those things that transpire? What will be your calling that you have to make sure of when God sends the (2) witnesses to prophesy for (3.5) years, giving them the power to devour their enemies with fire, to shut up heaven that it rain not for that period of time, to turn water into blood and to smite the earth with plagues at will?

What will be your calling? Will you be preaching the gospel, will you be gathering with others believers, will you be praying without ceasing, will you be loving your enemies and laying your life down for your friends? Will you be encouraging others to raise up families and giving suck to the young? Perhaps your expectation is one of being beheaded because you plan to refuse the mark of the beast. Now you have liberty in Christ but will you have the same freedom during the time of the great tribulation when these things take place? I wager that most believers who believe they'll pass through this great time of trouble will be packing their bags and getting as far away from civilization as possible to wait it out till it's over and Christ's comes back. They don't want to be a part of that or be subject to it in any way. They won't want to take up their cross and subject their families to all these things. They don't now, so why then? So what will be your calling during the time of JACOB'S TROUBLE?

 

[PlainWord]

Considering just the time of tribulation coming upon the earth, followed by the second coming of Christ, what kind of expectation do you have as a member of the church and body of Christ? Is your expectation one of great tribulation that will come upon believers that make up the church? Will believers be divided and have to flee into the mountains for safety? If you remain alive on the earth will you be subject to the antichrist, the beast, the false prophet and all those things that transpire? What will be your calling that you have to make sure of when God sends the (2) witnesses to prophesy for (3.5) years, giving them the power to devour their enemies with fire, to shut up heaven that it rain not for that period of time, to turn water into blood and to smite the earth with plagues at will?

What will be your calling? Will you be preaching the gospel, will you be gathering with others believers, will you be praying without ceasing, will you be loving your enemies and laying your life down for your friends? Will you be encouraging others to raise up families and giving suck to the young? Perhaps your expectation is one of being beheaded because you plan to refuse the mark of the beast. Now you have liberty in Christ but will you have the same freedom during the time of the great tribulation when these things take place? I wager that most believers who believe they'll pass through this great time of trouble will be packing their bags and getting as far away from civilization as possible to wait it out till it's over and Christ's comes back. They don't want to be a part of that or be subject to it in any way. They won't want to take up their cross and subject their families to all these things. They don't now, so why then? So what will be your calling during the time of JACOB'S TROUBLE?

Brad,

You have asked many interesting questions. These I ask myself often. I don't know what I will do when the Tribulation comes. I pray that the Spirit will give me strength to not deny Christ and to withstand whatever suffering comes. This assumes of course that I survive the initial onslaught of the 6th seal - Wrath of the Lamb.

Brad, dear brother, I am trying to figure out as much of this end time stuff as I can because I am convinced we will go through it. Jesus tells us that He is coming "Immediately after the tribulation of those days." He tells us to "watch" and not be like the servant whose master went away - Mat 24. Jesus does tell us to flee to the hills so perhaps there will be safety there. I don't know.

I do not believe we will face the Bowl Judgments as they are poured out against the Beast and his kingdom. Besides, we are told the coming is at the Last Trump (7th), so we will be gathered then. I believe as events unfold, those that are watching will come to understand what to do and where to go. It could be that we should go to Israel as it appears there will be a safe place prepared there for the remnant. But to be honest Brad, sitting here today, I do not know.

 

[RickyZ]

I still don't like the word 'tribulation' because there's just too much confusion that's grown around it. But the Bible is very clear. There is tribulation in the seals and trumpets, which are called judgments, and God has NEVER taken His people out of judgment. Then there is the great tribulation of the bowls, which are called wrath, and God has NEVER subjected His people to His wrath. We will see His judgment, in the seals and trumpets, but not His wrath, in the pouring out of the bowls.

http://christianchat.com/blogs/rickyz/246-3-1-will-we-go-through-tribulation.html

http://christianchat.com/blogs/rickyz/247-3-2-will-we-go-through-great-tribulation.html

 

[PlainWord]

I still don't like the word 'tribulation' because there's just too much confusion that's grown around it. But the Bible is very clear. There is tribulation in the seals and trumpets, which are called judgments, and God has NEVER taken His people out of judgment. Then there is the great tribulation of the bowls, which are called wrath, and God has NEVER subjected His people to His wrath. We will see His judgment, in the seals and trumpets, but not His wrath, in the pouring out of the bowls.

http://christianchat.com/blogs/rickyz/246-3-1-will-we-go-through-tribulation.html

http://christianchat.com/blogs/rickyz/247-3-2-will-we-go-through-great-tribulation.html

Correct. I make this same distinction from time to time. However, I don't even think the first 5 seals are part of the Trib, just the 6th seal. If they were why then would the martyrs be growing impatient at the 5th seal. These first 4 seals are most likely part of the days of sorrows spoken of by Jesus. I think it highly possible several or even all of these 4 have been opened already but the descriptions are too ambiguous to know for sure.

 

[Hoffco]

To plainWord, I am with you on trying to destroy this unbiblical view of pre-tri rap. But, I want to ask you this question, do you think we should call the 70th wk. of Daniel,"the tribulation"? I think that is a wrong tittle for the time of "jacob's trouble". Because in Rev,1:9 John called himself a "companion in the tribulation" . We know we have seen great tribulation to the chruch in the last 2,000 yrs. It is not new to the end time. And since the Church is pictured in Rev. 7:14 as having "come out of the tribulation". And since I believe the rapture happens at the sixth seal in Rev 6:12-27, then the church will be gone before, 6:27 "the great day of His wrath has come". that great day of wrath starts with the rapture. and consists of the trumpets and the bowl judgments. And since we are not appointed to wrath,1Thess.5:9. and since Mt.24:29 tell us the rature will be "after the tribulation of those days". And since I believe the first 4 seals of Rev.6 are not the the final day of wrath but the normal wrath of God that we see today in the world,as in Rom.1:18 "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven". All these reasons lead me to believe ,we should not call Jacob's trouble or the 70th wk. of Daniel, " the great tribulation" or "the tribulation". What do you think? this is why I lean to a pre-wrath rapture. Hoffco

 

[Hoffco]

To RickyZ, I think you and plainWord have the same problem of calling the trumpets, tribulation. They are "the great day of His wrath. And in Rev.11:15 the wrath is over and Jesus' kingdom comes to earth. Therefore the bowls judgments must be parallel to the trumpets. And after the 6th seal, the raptured church is in heaven, 7:9&14 before the trumpets are sounded in ch.8-11:15. my other reasons are in my last post. thanks for considering them. Hoffco

 

[GRA]

We know we have seen great tribulation to the chruch in the last 2,000 yrs.

DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING!

Read the above quoted statement - several times - and then, go check out my 'study' threads...

 

[GRA]

To RickyZ, I think you and plainWord have the same problem of calling the trumpets, tribulation. They are "the great day of His wrath. And in Rev.11:15 the wrath is over and Jesus' kingdom comes to earth. Therefore the bowls judgments must be parallel to the trumpets. And after the 6th seal, the raptured church is in heaven, 7:9&14 before the trumpets are sounded in ch.8-11:15. my other reasons are in my last post. thanks for considering them. Hoffco

'wrath of God' = '7 vials' ( Revelation 16 ) - "exactly that - no more and no less"

Please read the following posts:

Wrath #1
Wrath #2
Wrath #3

 

[GRA]

To plainWord, I am with you on trying to destroy this unbiblical view of pre-tri rap. But, I want to ask you this question, do you think we should call the 70th wk. of Daniel,"the tribulation"? I think that is a wrong tittle for the time of "jacob's trouble". Because in Rev,1:9 John called himself a "companion in the tribulation" . We know we have seen great tribulation to the chruch in the last 2,000 yrs. It is not new to the end time. And since the Church is pictured in Rev. 7:14 as having "come out of the tribulation". And since I believe the rapture happens at the sixth seal in Rev 6:12-27, then the church will be gone before, 6:27 "the great day of His wrath has come". that great day of wrath starts with the rapture. and consists of the trumpets and the bowl judgments. And since we are not appointed to wrath,1Thess.5:9. and since Mt.24:29 tell us the rature will be "after the tribulation of those days". And since I believe the first 4 seals of Rev.6 are not the the final day of wrath but the normal wrath of God that we see today in the world,as in Rom.1:18 "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven". All these reasons lead me to believe ,we should not call Jacob's trouble or the 70th wk. of Daniel, " the great tribulation" or "the tribulation". What do you think? this is why I lean to a pre-wrath rapture. Hoffco

The idea that the '70th week of Daniel' is separate from the other 69 and is "the 7-year tribulation" -- is part of the pre-trib rapture lie.

All 70 weeks - 490 years - unbroken - came and went - fulfilled.

 

[BradC]

This is the passage that should be considered concerning great tribulation.

Mt 24: 21,22 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

 

[GRA]

This is the passage that should be considered concerning great tribulation.

Mt 24: 21,22 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Yes -- all related passages must be considered together...