Pre Trib Rapture Moment 13: What are Post Tribbers afraid of?

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1still_waters

Guest
#21
And...

The phrase 'the tribulation of those days' in verse 29 refers back to verse 21 :

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. ~ Matthew 24:21

:)
Yup and and back up in the range of verse 21 there are believers Jesus is instructing to do such and such.
Well if believers are raptured out, then who is going to be around to do the such and such Jesus is instructing them to do?

And that still doesn't negate the truth that Jesus said he'd come on the clouds and gather AFTER the tribulation of those days.

[SUP]29 [/SUP]“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. [SUP]30 [/SUP]Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [SUP]31 [/SUP]And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
 
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Abiding

Guest
#22
Yup and and back up in the range of verse 21 there are believers Jesus is instructing to do such and such.
Well if believers are raptured out, then who is going to be around to do the such and such Jesus is instructing them to do?

And that still doesn't negate the truth that Jesus said he'd come on the clouds and gather AFTER the tribulation of those days.

[SUP]29 [/SUP]“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. [SUP]30 [/SUP]Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [SUP]31 [/SUP]And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Oh Mr. technical, doing that "read the words" thingy again.:cool:
 

ChosenbyHim

Senior Member
Sep 19, 2011
3,343
113
63
#23
The Bible says God is against false teachers that say God said, but He did not tell them anything. He is against the fly away teaching ( rapture )

Ezekiel 13: ( The chapter is addressing lying teachers pastors ministers evangelist , etc )

20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against your pillows( that hide God's hands of salvation and correction ), wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.

21 Your kerchiefs ( coverings of lies like rapture -over peoples heads so they cant see the truth ) also will I tear, and deliver my people out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am the Lord.

I suggest you all read and understand what the chapter is saying.
And Nathan what I suggest for you to do is to study the issue of the Rapture. The Pre Trib. Rapture is taught in the King James Bible. Study the issue.

You will be held accountable just like we all will.
 

ChosenbyHim

Senior Member
Sep 19, 2011
3,343
113
63
#24
The Bible says God is against false teachers that say God said, but He did not tell them anything. He is against the fly away teaching ( rapture )

Ezekiel 13: ( The chapter is addressing lying teachers pastors ministers evangelist , etc )

20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against your pillows( that hide God's hands of salvation and correction ), wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.

21 Your kerchiefs ( coverings of lies like rapture -over peoples heads so they cant see the truth ) also will I tear, and deliver my people out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am the Lord.

I suggest you all read and understand what the chapter is saying.
God is against false teachers.

But God is not against the Pre Trib. Rapture Teaching, because the Pre Trib. Rapture teaching is in the Holy Scriptures. The pre Trib. Rapture is a Bible Doctrine. It is the truth. Therefore God is not against it.
 
G

GRA

Guest
#25
One of the worst things that Christians do sometimes is to assume that everything they have been taught about or from the Bible is true - and, cannot be in error -- especially when those who taught them are highly respected pastors / teachers / etc. And, of course, this is all very understandable -- only, it is not very helpful. This is because it usually gets compounded when they use erroneous doctrine as a foundation to build upon - which then produces more error, because it is build upon a foundation of error...

The 'pre-trib rapture' teaching is - unfortunately - one of the biggest whoppers of a lie that Satan has ever come up with. As far as I know, most Christians believe it ( because they were taught to believe it ).

I grew up with this teaching. However, in my twenties, I decided to "study it out for myself" - because it started to not make sense any more. It "clashed" with simple straight-forward verses like those pointed out earlier ( Matthew 24 ) in this thread. It is truly amazing - what I discovered...

The best advise I know to give to help someone see the truth about the rapture ( or anything else ) is this:

"Learn how to 'forget everything you know about the scriptures' while you are studying a particular passage."

To better understand what I mean by this statement ( along with some thoughts related to this post / thread ) - please read these selected posts ( I am not asking you to read the whole thread. ) :

'What does it say?' before 'What does it mean?'
pre-trib coming #64
pre-trib coming #77
pre-trib coming #97
mark of the beast
Believe what you want to but,...

The Pre Trib. Rapture is taught in the King James Bible.
... the Pre Trib. Rapture teaching is in the Holy Scriptures. The pre Trib. Rapture is a Bible Doctrine. It is the truth.
Sorry, ChosenbyHim...

The 'pre-trib' rapture teaching is not in the King James Bible. It is not the truth.

Please read the list of posts above. Then, please re-think your eschatology.

:)
 

RickyZ

Senior Member
Sep 20, 2012
9,635
787
113
#26
AFTER the tribulation of those days.

[SUP]29 [/SUP]“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the (...)
See now I would do the 'read the words' thingy on the words "AFTER the tribulation of those days", and [SUP]29 [/SUP]“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the (...)

That's why i don't like the word tribulation. There's tribulation in the judgment of God, as in the seals and trumpets, and there's tribulation in the wrath of God, as poured out in the bowls. So to place the scripture you have to consider which of those days it is referring to.
 
G

GRA

Guest
#27
1 Thessalonians 5:9 KJV

For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
This stands true for pre-, mid-, and post-trib rapture views.

'salvation' is obtained before the wrath of God is "poured out upon the world" ( rapture occurs before wrath )

The wrath of God [event] does not include nor overlap any part of the 'tribulation', 'seals', or 'trumpet' events.

( The tribulation period is not the wrath of God being poured out upon the world. The wrath of God is "its own separate event"... )

:)
 
G

GRA

Guest
#28
See now I would do the 'read the words' thingy on the words "AFTER the tribulation of those days", and [SUP]29 [/SUP]“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the (...)

That's why i don't like the word tribulation. There's tribulation in the judgment of God, as in the seals and trumpets, and there's tribulation in the wrath of God, as poured out in the bowls. So to place the scripture you have to consider which of those days it is referring to.
The words 'those days' in verse 22 and verse 29 refer to the verse 21 description.

EDIT: 'those days' are the days of the 'great tribulation' (verse 21)

:)
 
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enoch1nine

Guest
#29
And they slew of Moab at that time about ten thousand men, all lusty, and all men of valour; and there escaped not a man.
 
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Donkeyfish07

Guest
#30
Yup and and back up in the range of verse 21 there are believers Jesus is instructing to do such and such.
Well if believers are raptured out, then who is going to be around to do the such and such Jesus is instructing them to do?

And that still doesn't negate the truth that Jesus said he'd come on the clouds and gather AFTER the tribulation of those days.

[SUP]29 [/SUP]“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. [SUP]30 [/SUP]Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [SUP]31 [/SUP]And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
I can never understand the pre trib viewpoint because of that one verse. I don't know why people believe it
 
G

GRA

Guest
#31
The wrath of God [event] does not include nor overlap any part of the 'tribulation', 'seals', or 'trumpet' events.
"Well --- perhaps, with the possible exception of Revelation 6:14..."

:)
 
K

Kerry

Guest
#32
I can never understand the pre trib viewpoint because of that one verse. I don't know why people believe it
Because, my friend, Gods children are not appointed unto wrath. The OT refers to this event as the day of the Lord. It is God's wrath being poured out on a sinful world. With that said many people will be saved during this time and they will have to live through it. Many being killed for their faith in Jesus. Can you imagine the witness that the rapture will have on those who have sat the fence. When their God fearing mother is gone and no body left behind. Can you find in the OT where God poured out His judgement on people that had faith in Him. I think not.
 
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nathan3

Guest
#33
And Nathan what I suggest for you to do is to study the issue of the Rapture. The Pre Trib. Rapture is taught in the King James Bible. Study the issue.

You will be held accountable just like we all will.
I won't for teaching people that one lie, because that lie leads people to worship Satan at his, arrival . But rapture teachings neglect that.because your going to be gone. No were in the gospel armor is there mention of a jet pack.

Nor is that mentioned in the order of events outlined by Christ in revelation or mark13 luke 21 etc, when we read in order of their events given. It is not difficult .God was clear in Ezekiel .He is against the rapture . ( chapter 13 )

people are lazily studying the bible , and taking things out of the subject matter so their security blankets can keep them warm at night. its a lie. a lot sadly of what is taught today is a lie, and not what is actually, written in the Bible. I think people have simply forgotten how to take The Bible at its word and learn how to read as well. its a lost art.
 
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Donkeyfish07

Guest
#34
Because, my friend, Gods children are not appointed unto wrath. The OT refers to this event as the day of the Lord. It is God's wrath being poured out on a sinful world. With that said many people will be saved during this time and they will have to live through it. Many being killed for their faith in Jesus. Can you imagine the witness that the rapture will have on those who have sat the fence. When their God fearing mother is gone and no body left behind. Can you find in the OT where God poured out His judgement on people that had faith in Him. I think not.
I agree with you that we aren't appointed unto wrath. I do however disagree with an assumption I think your making here (Correct me if I'm wrong). I think your assuming that tribulation = wrath. I'll give an example from scripture where the word is used and it clearly doesn't imply people going through tribulation means they are receiving God's wrath.

John 16:33

"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

I don't believe Jesus is referring to the great tribulation here, just tribulation in general (All Christians have dealt with tribulation at some point IMO, I know I have....but the great tribulation....there has never been anything as intense and never will be again). Still, you can't translate that as "In the world, ye shall be on the recieving end of God's wrath, but be of good cheer...etc....".

I'm not really trying to argue a point so much as I'm trying to explain why I can't understand where this pre-trib stuff comes from, I've met a lot of people that's been in the Church for years that believes it but I can't find any scripture to back it up. Especially in light of the verse still waters posted.....There's a clear timeline there and the gathering of the elect takes place after the tribulation. Says it right in the bible in red ink.

My question for people that are pre-trib, is what am I missing from your perspective? Where is my reasoning flawed? What's a stronger reasoning to support pre-trib?
 
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nathan3

Guest
#35
1st Tribulation - 2 Thess. 2 ( 3-4 ) and recorded in all of Revelation and many places .

2nd Tribulation - 2 Thess 2. ( 8 ).. and recorded in all of Revelation and many places .


It is hard to paraphrase these things without talking about it in chat. No mention of rapture. The word is not even in the Bible.
 

Wall

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2013
1,417
154
63
#36
1COR.15[50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.[51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and WE SHALL BE CHANGED.[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.[54] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP IN VICTORY.

ISAIAH 25 [8] HE WILL SWALLOW UP DEATH IN VICTORY; and the Lord GOD will WIPE AWAY TEARS from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.[9] And it shall be said IN THAT DAY, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.

No more tears. "death is swallowed up in victory" both scriptures. Same event. But in Isaiah 25 you will also find that at that time “God shall wipe away all tears”.

REVELATION 21 [1] And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.[2]And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.[3]And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, BEHOLD, THE TABERNACLE OF GOD IS WITH MEN, AND HE WILL DWELL WITH THEM, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.[4]And God shall WIPE AWAY ALL TEARS from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.[5]And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

No more tears

REVELATION 7 [13]And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?[14]And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
[15]Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: AND HE THAT SITTETH ON THE THRONE SHALL DWELL AMONG THEM.[16]They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.[17]For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall WIPE AWAY ALL TEARS from their eyes.

No more tears. Pretty simple to see all above scriptures are speaking of the same event. No one will be raptured off to heaven. When we are changed in the twinkling of an eye, its off to the 1000yr period of rest with Jesus.

ZECH. 8 [1] Again the word of the Lord of hosts came to me, saying, [2] Thus saith the Lord of hosts; I was jealous for Zion with great jealousy, and I was jealous for her with great fury. [3] THUS SAITH THE LORD; I AM RETURNED UNTO ZION, AND WILL DWELL IN THE MIDST OF JERUSALEM: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the Lord of hosts the holy mountain. [4] Thus saith the Lord of hosts; There shall yet old men and old women dwell in the streets of Jerusalem, and every man with his staff in his hand for very age. [5] And the streets of the city shall be full of boys and girls playing in the streets thereof. [6] Thus saith the Lord of hosts; If it be marvellous in the eyes of the remnant of this people in these days, should it also be marvellous in mine eyes? saith the Lord of hosts. [7] Thus saith the Lord of hosts; Behold, I WILL SAVE MY PEOPLE FROM THE EAST COUNTRY, AND FROM THE WEST COUNTRY; [8] AND I WILL BRING THEM, AND THEY SHALL DWELL IN THE MIDST OF JERUSALEM: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness.

Verse 7. How will the Lord gather His people? Not by public transit. Itll be done in the twinkling of an eye.
 
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nathan3

Guest
#37
I have nothing to say but good post there, Wall. You offered more scripture that is on subject then i have seen in a while. you even noticed the change in bodies that many people read over. anyway have a good day.
 

Wall

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2013
1,417
154
63
#38
I have nothing to say but good post there, Wall. You offered more scripture that is on subject then i have seen in a while. you even noticed the change in bodies that many people read over. anyway have a good day.
Thank you Nathan, I am having a pretty good day so far. Ive found that 99% or so of the Rapturist don't really care what the scriptures say, they are gonna hold onto it no matter what. Ive asked many Rapturist groups to show me any scripture that says we are being beamed up to heaven at the 1Cor.15 event. They couldn't cause there are none. Oh well

MARK 13 [20] And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days. [21] And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not: [22] For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. [23] But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things. [24] BUT IN THOSE DAYS, AFTER THAT TRIBULATION, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, [25] And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. [26] And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. [27] And then shall he send his angels, AND SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT FROM THE FOUR WINDS, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

The above scripture, 1Cor.15 and 1Thes.4 are all talking about the same “day”. The Day of the Lord. If that were true there would have to be scriptual proof of the “dead rising” and a “gathering” of his people (in the twinkling of an eye). Then theres those “four winds”.

EZEKIEL 37 [8] And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them. [9] Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord God; COME FROM THE FOUR WINDS, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, THAT THEY MAY LIVE. [10] So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army. [11] Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts. [12] Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, O my people, I WILL OPEN YOUR GRAVES, and cause you to come up out of your graves, AND BRING YOU INTO THE LAND OF ISRAEL. [13] And ye shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, [14] And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the Lord have spoken it, and performed it, saith the Lord.

We can plainly see the in Ezek. 37 the dead rising ( they rise 1st according to 1 Cor.15 and 1Thes.4). Then we are all gathered together, to meet the Lord in the air and its off to the 1000yr period of rest in Israel. We dont all flit off heaven as the rapturist claim. Also these 4 winds blow after the tribulation as plainly seen in Mark 13 {24-27}.
 
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nathan3

Guest
#39
Thank you Nathan, I am having a pretty good day so far. Ive found that 99% or so of the Rapturist don't really care what the scriptures say, they are gonna hold onto it no matter what. Ive asked many Rapturist groups to show me any scripture that says we are being beamed up to heaven at the 1Cor.15 event. They couldn't cause there are none. Oh well

MARK 13 [20] And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days. [21] And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not: [22] For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. [23] But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things. [24] BUT IN THOSE DAYS, AFTER THAT TRIBULATION, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, [25] And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. [26] And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. [27] And then shall he send his angels, AND SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT FROM THE FOUR WINDS, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

The above scripture, 1Cor.15 and 1Thes.4 are all talking about the same “day”. The Day of the Lord. If that were true there would have to be scriptual proof of the “dead rising” and a “gathering” of his people (in the twinkling of an eye). Then theres those “four winds”.

EZEKIEL 37 [8] And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them. [9] Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord God; COME FROM THE FOUR WINDS, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, THAT THEY MAY LIVE. [10] So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army. [11] Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts. [12] Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, O my people, I WILL OPEN YOUR GRAVES, and cause you to come up out of your graves, AND BRING YOU INTO THE LAND OF ISRAEL. [13] And ye shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, [14] And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the Lord have spoken it, and performed it, saith the Lord.

We can plainly see the in Ezek. 37 the dead rising ( they rise 1st according to 1 Cor.15 and 1Thes.4). Then we are all gathered together, to meet the Lord in the air and its off to the 1000yr period of rest in Israel. We dont all flit off heaven as the rapturist claim. Also these 4 winds blow after the tribulation as plainly seen in Mark 13 {24-27}.

Some more good scripture. A lot of this is comforting on its own with no need for a rapture teaching.

But, you maybe want to note that in revelation it does mention a phrase " the dead lived not again" until the thousand years were up.

And the scripture in Ezekiel you noted can help explain this in part. Now, the reaction at first glace, is that this is a physical thing . But,I believe this is just a teaching tool. or way, to show simply, that is how dead "spiritually " to understanding God's truth i.e God's word, those people are, that it takes preaching to them God's word to bring them to life again. ( in a spiritual sense ).

When applied to those people who lived not until the 1000yrs are up(Revelation 20:5 ), then you see, that its not until Christ teaching them for a 1000yrs, of disapline, and the testing with the short release of Satan after, that they are worthy to live, meaning overcome through Christ.

The reason they are in that state to begin with at Christ return is this, they worshiped the fake Christ in 2 thess 2, and other places . so they would be considered "dead" ( and it would be fare to call them that if they did not study to show their self approved, not read enough in God's word to avoid worshiping Satan as their own. those are people I would call dead, in a spiritual sense )until that 1000yrs where up and they overcame Satan.
 
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GRA

Guest
#40
"Oh - here we go again --- with multiple definitions for the word 'rapture'..." :rolleyes:

It is never helpful... :(