Speaking in tongues

[TomH]

Fat man lookin’ in a blade of steel
Thin man lookin’ at his last meal
Hollow man lookin’ in a cottonfield
For dignity

Wise man lookin’ in a blade of grass
Young man lookin’ in the shadows that pass
Poor man lookin’ through painted glass
For dignity

Somebody got murdered on New Year’s Eve
Somebody said dignity was the first to leave
I went into the city, went into the town
Went into the land of the midnight sun

Searchin’ high, searchin’ low
Searchin’ everywhere I know
Askin’ the cops wherever I go
Have you seen dignity?

Blind man breakin’ out of a trance
Puts both his hands in the pockets of chance
Hopin’ to find one circumstance
Of dignity

I went to the wedding of Mary Lou
She said, “I don’t want nobody see me talkin’ to you”
Said she could get killed if she told me what she knew
About dignity

I went down where the vultures feed
I would’ve gone deeper, but there wasn’t any need
Heard the tongues of angels and the tongues of men
Wasn’t any difference to me

Chilly wind sharp as a razor blade
House on fire, debts unpaid
Gonna stand at the window, gonna ask the maid
Have you seen dignity?

Drinkin’ man listens to the voice he hears
In a crowded room full of covered-up mirrors
Lookin’ into the lost forgotten years
For dignity

Met Prince Phillip at the home of the blues
Said he’d give me information if his name wasn’t used
He wanted money up front, said he was abused
By dignity

Footprints runnin’ ’cross the silver sand
Steps goin’ down into tattoo land
I met the sons of darkness and the sons of light
In the bordertowns of despair

Got no place to fade, got no coat
I’m on the rollin’ river in a jerkin’ boat
Tryin’ to read a note somebody wrote
About dignity

Sick man lookin’ for the doctor’s cure
Lookin’ at his hands for the lines that were
And into every masterpiece of literature
For dignity

Englishman stranded in the blackheart wind
Combin’ his hair back, his future looks thin
Bites the bullet and he looks within
For dignity

Someone showed me a picture and I just laughed
Dignity never been photographed
I went into the red, went into the black
Into the valley of dry bone dreams

So many roads, so much at stake
So many dead ends, I’m at the edge of the lake
Sometimes I wonder what it’s gonna take
To find dignity


Read more: Bob Dylan Songs | The Official Bob Dylan Site








what do we really think of lost sinners?


Ephesians 2
1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.









4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Amen, Amazing Grace indeed.

 

[Stephen63]

UMM Shouldn't these type of things be telling us something? If some of the modern church is just as BLIND to what is happening as the Corinthian church was,doesn't that tell us there is a problem?

Yes it does. Wouldn't you agree that such abuses and ignorance in certain churches stands out way more than deadness and legalism? Legalism due to the lack of love in the church? Such legalism that is so bad it equals or exceeds that of the Pharisees of Jesus's day? Hatred in the church against different believers? See, if these issues were simply due to differences of opinion, most folks wouldn't even get involved. But some get involved with a vengeance, narrowed again certain beliefs, while others go untouched. Perhaps you can see that some try to deal with this like a verbal Saul of Tarsus. I really believe the problems stem from a two-sided issue, and not a one-sided one. I believe both sides need to carry some of the responsibility as well as the blame. Things cannot be seen clearly when one side declares the other wrong while giving the impression of a hater. Whether it's me, or you, or anybody else, mocking and vengeful tactics are evil, as evil or more even as the issues they spew venom against. Abusing the gifts is not of God. Neither are traditional beliefs that separate us. Anything or anyone that divides or promotes division in the body of Christ will stand before Christ at the judgment. Their beliefs may be correct; but their heart is wrong.

 

[zone]

today's charismatic practices are not of God.
how clearly does it need to be said?
there's no middle ground.

charging nearly 2 thousand years of Christians with dead pharisaical legalism; or any other list of charges still does not legitimize the bizarre phenomenon practiced today.

if the beliefs (foundation/doctrine) of the movement is something other than what is in Scripture; contains things attributed to God that are not of Him, why would there be even an inch of tolerance for it (it being bad doctrine; vain imaginings...not people)?

but....people who like the practices, regardless of their (un)orthodoxy will just cry - HATER and hope that's good enough.
in most cases it is - the Waves have been so incessant, most have given up resisting.

some though, have not.

i guess they are the dead pharisee legalists.

harhar.
right.

we could always examine the doctrine - the foundation of the movement.
but nobody really wants to get serious about that.
the cracks start showing up so we just throw down the pharisee card.
O..k.....

when the rains come, great will be the fall of that other house.

 

[Rodger]

Okay so i don't know much about it, i heard it's a gift that anyone can receive if they ask for it. Which would be great because for some reason i feel i need to start speaking in tongues in my prayers and my praises. It seems to me to be a powerful weapon of sort, Every testimony i hear of it they talk about how it somehow empowered them. So what exactly does one do to receive this gift? And what exactly does it do?I guess to me it seems to be a booster drink of sorts, like it not just empowers us but greatly pleases the lord as well.

Blain...........The "sign gifts" were given to the APOSTLES! The circumstances at the church of Corinth were within the period limited to the use of signs for the "Transition Period".

The Scriptures were not yet completed and God was still dealing with His eartly people. The SIGN GIFTS were able to be done by the apostles to prove and authenticate their message as coming from God and not themselves. Once the Bible was completed, these signs were no long need to validate the words spoken by the apostles.

Paul in writing to the Corinthians (1 Cort. 14:5) makes it clear that prohecy/teaching is to be desired and preferred over tongues because teaching is more useful in the church. Teaching edifies ALL the church where tongues edify only the person involved.

1 Corth. 14:22
"Wherefore tongues are for a sign, NOT TO THEM THAT BELIEVE BUT TO THEM THAT BELIEVE NOT, but prophesying serth not for them that believe not but for them that believe".

It can not be any clearer than that. Tongues in the church were for a sign indicative of judgment upon the unbelievers, NOT a sign to lead them to faith.

1 Corth. 14:23
"If therefore the whole church be come together into one place and all speak with tongues and there come in those that are unlearned, unbelievers, will thay not say that ye are mad"????

Folks.........there is no room here for misunderstanding. Paul is clear! God's purpose in the church is for believers to be lifed up, and unbelievers to be reached with a message that is simple and understandable and appeals to the conscience and the heart of the lost man so that he will turn from his sin and to Christ.

But, if that lost man comes to a church where tongues are spoken, the greek word in this verse for mad is......"LUNITIC".
That lost man will leave the church the same he he came in....LOST, and the devil wins again!

 

[Rodger]

But..........what would you say is more important. UNITY.....or TRUTH!

 

[Rodger]

And for the record I have never spoken in tongues nor have I ever interpreted.

I am however able to speak some spanish. But it is a LEARNED thing.

Me too..........."Taco, Burrito........

 

[mimi23]

i don't understand this part, when the apostles start to speak in different language i thought the reason was so that they can go over the world and teach the birth of Christ. I thought the language they spoke was a language people can understand not like "shebelabhilkodakdfad;" caz that is wat it sounds when i see ppl do it
why do i need to speak a language nobody can understand? not even me? this always confuses me

forgive me if i sound stupid but i want to understand

 

[Messenger_T]

They started to speak in the "tongues" of the people. And the people were amazednot an unknown language at all. But known languages. You are not stupid. This is what happens when religions fog the truth..

 

[Stephen63]

Things cannot be seen clearly when one side declares the other wrong while giving the impression of a hater.

but....people who like the practices, regardless of their (un)orthodoxy will just cry - HATER and hope that's good enough.
in most cases it is - the Waves have been so incessant, most have given up resisting.

When the phrase "giving the impression of a hater" is twisted to "crying 'hater' ", sensible people can come to their own conclusions of who's doing what, and why.

 

[SarahM777]

Yes it does. Wouldn't you agree that such abuses and ignorance in certain churches stands out way more than deadness and legalism? Legalism due to the lack of love in the church? Such legalism that is so bad it equals or exceeds that of the Pharisees of Jesus's day? Hatred in the church against different believers? See, if these issues were simply due to differences of opinion, most folks wouldn't even get involved. But some get involved with a vengeance, narrowed again certain beliefs, while others go untouched. Perhaps you can see that some try to deal with this like a verbal Saul of Tarsus. I really believe the problems stem from a two-sided issue, and not a one-sided one. I believe both sides need to carry some of the responsibility as well as the blame. Things cannot be seen clearly when one side declares the other wrong while giving the impression of a hater. Whether it's me, or you, or anybody else, mocking and vengeful tactics are evil, as evil or more even as the issues they spew venom against. Abusing the gifts is not of God. Neither are traditional beliefs that separate us. Anything or anyone that divides or promotes division in the body of Christ will stand before Christ at the judgment. Their beliefs may be correct; but their heart is wrong.

Sorry Stephen,

First coming from where I was,I found more hatred,being ignored,being set off to the side by the so called upbeat "filled with the Holy Ghost,being moved by the Spirit" so called "loving" churches. I found more love for me as a HUMAN BEING in the so called rigid church. So please don't use that card on me.

And again it is NOT a two sided issue,first it is either from God or it is not,there is no other plumb line. If it is not from God it is either coming from Satan or it is being made up by self. There is no in between,how can there be?

Now you being a pastor,if I remember correctly should be able to answer the two questions below. Because remember God will hold YOU accountable for the shepherding of the flock He has given you. First question IS this truly from God?
When you are in a service How do you know the difference between that which is from God and which is not? How do you teach your flock to recognize the difference? Do you teach your flock how to tell the difference? If you don't know,how is your flock suppose to know? You of all people should be so sure because your flocks life depends on it and you should at least have some idea how we know the difference between that which is from God and that which is not. If you know then please tell us how. Is it objective,is it subjective? And then how do you tell the difference between that which appeals to the flesh,but yet does not directly go against the word of God? Can you tell me? If not why not?

And that is the heart of the issue. The rest of your quote is simply a diversion.

 

[Stephen63]

Sorry Stephen,

First coming from where I was,I found more hatred,being ignored,being set off to the side by the so called upbeat "filled with the Holy Ghost,being moved by the Spirit" so called "loving" churches. I found more love for me as a HUMAN BEING in the so called rigid church. So please don't use that card on me.

And again it is NOT a two sided issue,first it is either from God or it is not,there is no other plumb line. If it is not from God it is either coming from Satan or it is being made up by self. There is no in between,how can there be?

Now you being a pastor,if I remember correctly should be able to answer the two questions below. Because remember God will hold YOU accountable for the shepherding of the flock He has given you. First question IS this truly from God?
When you are in a service How do you know the difference between that which is from God and which is not? How do you teach your flock to recognize the difference? Do you teach your flock how to tell the difference? If you don't know,how is your flock suppose to know? You of all people should be so sure because your flocks life depends on it and you should at least have some idea how we know the difference between that which is from God and that which is not. If you know then please tell us how. Is it objective,is it subjective? And then how do you tell the difference between that which appeals to the flesh,but yet does not directly go against the word of God? Can you tell me? If not why not?

And that is the heart of the issue. The rest of your quote is simply a diversion.

Wow. A diversion. You mean me using the very tactics that I recently spoke about....... I see what you're saying...... Now, about your question. I teach my church that when anyone uses tongues and interpretations to only tell the church how happy God is with them, and how he's going to bless them, and how they're doing no wrong...... I tell them such things are bunch of garbage. That is nothing more than ear-tickling false prophecy. When you read of the prophecies of the Old Testament, the general message was about disobedience, idolatry, and judgment. Within those prophecies, there was also given the words of hope for forgiveness and restoration if the people would repent. It should be no different today...... Sin is rampant in the modern-day church. On one extreme, a lot of spiritually dying folks are chasing after a feeling, nothing more. On the other extreme, spiritually dying folks are fighting to shut down anything considered "spiritual" due to the fact that they cannot see what God's word says is still true, even in these days. Neither side will concede to the fact that they are wrong. Attitudes are the dead giveaway of such people. So is the lack of fruit. Again, when both sides will pull out all stops to win their argument, they are already wrong, because you have to close your Bible and put it down in order to do it. Instead of building the kingdom, such folks will tear it down just to be right. Without the love of God, both sides are simply preaching another Jesus.

 

[zone]

When the phrase "giving the impression of a hater" is twisted to "crying 'hater' ", sensible people can come to their own conclusions of who's doing what, and why.

i'm sure they can

speak plainly. then there won't be confusion about what is being said.

 

[Stephen63]

To answer your other question. Spiritual gifts are from God. There is a simple way to know whether or not what someone is doing is under the influence of the Holy Spirit or not. Note the Scripture:
1 Corinthians 14:26[SUP]26[/SUP] How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
1 Corinthians 14:40[SUP]40[/SUP] Let all things be done decently and in order.
1 Corinthians 16:14[SUP]14[/SUP] Let all your things be done with charity.

If any manifestation does not edify or spiritually build up the church, is not decent or in order, is not done in love, it is not of God.

 

[Stephen63]

i'm sure they can

speak plainly. then there won't be confusion about what is being said.

Matthew 7:16-20 [SUP]16 [/SUP]Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? [SUP]17 [/SUP]Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. [SUP]18 [/SUP]A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.


I hope that's plain enough for you.

 

[zone]

On the other extreme, spiritually dying folks are fighting to shut down anything considered "spiritual" due to the fact that they cannot see what God's word says is still true, even in these days.

hahahaha......this tactic. yawn

accuse cessationists of not believing God's Word.

Neither side will concede to the fact that they are wrong.

one camp is wrong, and the other is not.
there's no middle ground.

i wouldn't expect those who believe they are right to "concede"

Attitudes are the dead giveaway of such people.

huh?
not 'conceding' to continuationism is "attitude"?

what if it's totally not of the LORD?
what if it makes a mockery of the Holy Spirit?

So is the lack of fruit.

i keep asking if we can inspect the fruit of the Charismatic Waves.
can we?

it's pretty clear - confusion; perpetual infancy; biblical illiteracy; disorder; false prophecies; schisms; false doctrine; over-emphasis on the Holy Spirit who testifies of JESUS, etc.

Again, when both sides will pull out all stops to win their argument, they are already wrong, because you have to close your Bible and put it down in order to do it.

you think this is some high-school debate?

i suggest you actually pick up your bible and let's keep looking to IT for the answers.
the Bible ALONE is authoritative....not modern prophets or 'words from God' or any of that.

what do you want from cessationists? compromise on this issue?
never.

it's false doctrine....that's why.
the love for God is seen in faithfulness to His Words and ways FIRST.
we determine who is a brother based on what they say about GOD and about His Word.

there's no lack of love in holding to sound doctrine.
quite the opposite.

Instead of building the kingdom, such folks will tear it down just to be right. Without the love of God, both sides are simply preaching another Jesus.

what most pentecostal factions consider "building the kingdom" has little to do with Christ's Kingdom.
Pentecostal factions are overwhelmingly dispensationalists, who don't even believe Jesus is actually King now.

they're waiting for an earthly reign.

so all this rhetoric and the persistence of false doctrine is actually more rightly placed on the signs and wonders crew who...

Instead of building the kingdom, such folks will tear it down just to be right.

all that 19th century GAP doctrine is:

simply preaching another Jesus.

 

[zone]

Matthew 7:16-20 [SUP]16 [/SUP]Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? [SUP]17 [/SUP]Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. [SUP]18 [/SUP]A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.


I hope that's plain enough for you.

it is.
and the Charismatic tree is corrupt.
that's my point.

i could show you beyond a reasonable doubt...if you were willing.
but you are not.

 

[zone]

To answer your other question. Spiritual gifts are from God. There is a simple way to know whether or not what someone is doing is under the influence of the Holy Spirit or not. Note the Scripture:
1 Corinthians 14:26[SUP]26[/SUP] How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
1 Corinthians 14:40[SUP]40[/SUP] Let all things be done decently and in order.
1 Corinthians 16:14[SUP]14[/SUP] Let all your things be done with charity.

If any manifestation does not edify or spiritually build up the church, is not decent or in order, is not done in love, it is not of God.

why don't you extract yourself from the FIRST CENTURY RECORD of the Acts of the Apostles and the brand new church?
for once.

why do you keep inserting yourself into it?
you weren't there....Power from on High to make you an INFALLIBLE vessel was not poured out on you.

 

[Stephen63]

it is.
and the Charismatic tree is corrupt.
that's my point.

i could show you beyond a reasonable doubt...if you were willing.
but you are not.

Matthew 7:1-6 [SUP]1 [/SUP]Judge not, that ye be not judged. [SUP]2 [/SUP]For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. [SUP]3 [/SUP]And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? [SUP]4 [/SUP]Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? [SUP]5 [/SUP]Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye. [SUP]6 [/SUP]Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

 

[zone]

Matthew 7:1-6 [SUP]1 [/SUP]Judge not, that ye be not judged. [SUP]2 [/SUP]For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. [SUP]3 [/SUP]And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? [SUP]4 [/SUP]Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? [SUP]5 [/SUP]Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye. [SUP]6 [/SUP]Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

that would be a worthy passage...if what the pentecostal movement produced was holy, and pearls.

is this all you have stephen?
k...ttyl.

 

[notuptome]

To answer your other question. Spiritual gifts are from God. There is a simple way to know whether or not what someone is doing is under the influence of the Holy Spirit or not. Note the Scripture:
1 Corinthians 14:26[SUP]26[/SUP] How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
1 Corinthians 14:40[SUP]40[/SUP] Let all things be done decently and in order.
1 Corinthians 16:14[SUP]14[/SUP] Let all your things be done with charity.

If any manifestation does not edify or spiritually build up the church, is not decent or in order, is not done in love, it is not of God.

So how does one establish the criteria? What edifies? What is decent? Who's order? Love is the most subjective of all. I rather think that the immutable word of God must be our standard.
The word of God requires that there be unsaved Jews present. 1 Cor 14:22 no tongues if the prescribed audience is not present. Study vs 21 and glean an idea of why tongues are for Jews. Hint it has to do with judgment.
Next we must determine if the criteria of 1 Cor 13:8 have been met. Have tongues ceased? We are told they will. The prophecy of Joel was given to Israel. Reading Joel 2 we see the Holy Spirit poured out upon all flesh but those of Israel speaking in tongues, dreaming dreams and prophesying not all flesh. We must decide if Pentecost was indeed to former rain in view of Joel 2 since not all of Joels prophecy has been fulfilled. The signs in the heavens being reserved until the latter rain when Christ returns to judge the earth at the close of the tribulation.
Well that's a lot of study and most who say they can speak in tongues are not going to be motivated to undertake any real and honest study of the subject. Much easier to just go with the feeling than to seek and know the mind of Christ on the matter.

For the cause of Christ
Roger