Catholic vs Protestant Debate.

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ChurchAuthority said:
Deut. 24:6 tells us about Moses death and burial:
"And He buried him in the valley in the land of Moab, opposite Beth-peor; but no man knows his burial place until this day."

This connotes an ongoing situation.
Did the people suddenly find out AFTER where Moses was buried?
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this is another 'apples and oranges' comparison...'until this day' means until the day the author of deuteronomy 24 wrote...obviously the author didn't know what was going to happen after 'this day'...so this is another definite endpoint unlike in matthew 1:25...

when 'until' is used with reference to a particular event that is not a definite endpoint such as death or the end of time or the date of writing...then the use of 'until' implies a change of state...

like i said...nobody would ever say 'john paul ii was celibate until he became pope'

matthew didn't write 'joseph knew her not until the day she died'...he didn't even write 'joseph knew her not until this day'...he wrote that joseph didn't know her until a specific reference point after which it is clear that both were still alive and still capable of 'knowing' each other...if it was matthew's intent to indicate mary's 'perpetual virginity' then he would have used one of the first two wordings...
 
now the most convincing objections to the myth of mary's 'perpetual virginity' are theological and moral...

the first problem is that it is blasphemous... if joseph is no longer permitted to 'know' mary because she has become the mother of the son of God...then you basically have God stealing a man's wife...which is the same thing God condemned herod for through john the baptist...

the second problem is that it accuses mary of sin... 1 corinthians 7:3-5 outlines the sexual responsibilities of married couples and allows only for temporary sexual self denial...there is no provision for 'perpetual virginity' within marriage... moreover refusing to even attempt to produce an heir was also a sin...so the myth of mary's 'perpetual virginity' basically makes her a female version of onan...

it is really past time for christians to stop putting up with this ridiculous misogynistic mythology...
 
RachelBibleStudent said:
this is another 'apples and oranges' comparison...'until this day' means until the day the author of deuteronomy 24 wrote...obviously the author didn't know what was going to happen after 'this day'...so this is another definite endpoint unlike in matthew 1:25...

when 'until' is used with reference to a particular event that is not a definite endpoint such as death or the end of time or the date of writing...then the use of 'until' implies a change of state...

like i said...nobody would ever say 'john paul ii was celibate until he became pope'

matthew didn't write 'joseph knew her not until the day she died'...he didn't even write 'joseph knew her not until this day'...he wrote that joseph didn't know her until a specific reference point after which it is clear that both were still alive and still capable of 'knowing' each other...if it was matthew's intent to indicate mary's 'perpetual virginity' then he would have used one of the first two wordings...
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You have to do some pretty fancy Scriptural acrobatics to arrive at those points.
Tell me, since Mary obviously had other children - who were they? Why doesn't Scripture mention them?

Finally, why would anybody say that John Paul II was celibate until he became Pope? That doesn't even make sense.
 
RachelBibleStudent said:
actually regardless of the age of joseph's children...they would have been required to go to bethlehem to register just like joseph and mary did...because they would have been from the line of david too...

and likewise joseph's children would have traveled to jerusalem with them for the passover...luke 2:44 indicates that they went with their relatives... interestingly no brothers or sisters are mentioned among the relatives at that time...maybe they weren't born yet?
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Uhh, no they wouldn't. Joseph had to go there because that was where he was from. His children were probably from Nazareth, where Joseph chose to make his home.
 
ChurchAuthority said:
You have to do some pretty fancy Scriptural acrobatics to arrive at those points.
Tell me, since Mary obviously had other children - who were they? Why doesn't Scripture mention them?

Finally, why would anybody say that John Paul II was celibate until he became Pope? That doesn't even make sense.
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it isn't acrobatics...just common sense reading comprehension...

if mary had other children then they might be the 'brothers' mentioned in matthew 12:46-47 and mark 3:31-32 and luke 8:19-20 and john 2:12 and acts 1:14...

and you are right that it doesn't make sense to say 'john paul ii was celibate until he became pope' if he was really celibate all his life...it makes no more sense that it would to say 'joseph knew her not until she gave birth' if mary had remained a virgin her entire life...
 
I hope this can be helpful to us :D if so Gloryb2God, God bless you all, my friends :D

Proverbs 29:9"If a wise man contendeth with a foolish man, whether he rage or laugh, there is no rest."

Titus 3:9"But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain."

[h=3]1 Peter Chapter 3[/h][SUP]15[/SUP] But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and [be] ready always to [give] an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
[SUP]16[/SUP] Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.
 
ChurchAuthority said:
Uhh, no they wouldn't. Joseph had to go there because that was where he was from. His children were probably from Nazareth, where Joseph chose to make his home.
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according to luke 2:4 joseph had to go to bethlehem because his family line was from there...namely the house of david...

any children of joseph's would have been of the house of david as well...so they would have to go to bethlehem too...
 
there is one more reason to believe mary had other sons besides jesus...because it was prophesied that she would!

psalm 69:8...
"I have become estranged from my brothers
And an alien to my mother’s sons."

this is a messianic psalm because the very next verse is quoted as a prophecy about jesus' life in john 2:17...
 
RachelBibleStudent said:
there is one more reason to believe mary had other sons besides jesus...because it was prophesied that she would!

psalm 69:8...
"I have become estranged from my brothers
And an alien to my mother’s sons."

this is a messianic psalm because the very next verse is quoted as a prophecy about jesus' life in john 2:17...
Click to expand...

Jesus' brothers in this prophecy are His fellow Jews. The Jews rejected Him, in case you forgot.
 
RachelBibleStudent said:
it isn't acrobatics...just common sense reading comprehension...

if mary had other children then they might be the 'brothers' mentioned in matthew 12:46-47 and mark 3:31-32 and luke 8:19-20 and john 2:12 and acts 1:14...

and you are right that it doesn't make sense to say 'john paul ii was celibate until he became pope' if he was really celibate all his life...it makes no more sense that it would to say 'joseph knew her not until she gave birth' if mary had remained a virgin her entire life...
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And I have already shown that these named "brothers" were the children of the "other" Mary at the foot of the cross.
 
ChurchAuthority said:
Jesus' brothers in this prophecy are His fellow Jews. The Jews rejected Him, in case you forgot.
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the prophecy specifically refers to jesus' -mother's sons-

his mother is mary...his mother's sons would be mary's sons...
 
ChurchAuthority said:
And I have already shown that these named "brothers" were the children of the "other" Mary at the foot of the cross.
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how could you have identified those brothers if matthew 12:46-47 and mark 3:31-32 and luke 8:19-20 and john 2:12 and acts 1:14 don't name them?

you are vastly overstating your case...
 
Peace be with you, did JESUS have a debate discussion with the faithless Pharisees? Did JESUS continue to convince the faithless Pharisees that HE is the MESSIAH? Can't the Holy Scripture judge that a contentious spirit, conform to the pattern of the wisdom of man and man made traditions called religion and also religious is to be false and an unreliable witness of the truth and cannot be?
Can't one who is spiritual distinguish between the spirit of error and the spirit of truth? Is this a disciple spirit, willing to learn and share Scriptural wisdom of the Holy Bible or a spirit who wants to justify its 'denomination doctrine and practices' are true and just? Isn't it a wolf in disguise come to disturb and scatter the lambs and sheeps of the MESSAIH in this chat web, who are beginning and learning together, starting to hear JESUS's voice from GOD's vessels of the Holy Scriptures?
'satan disguises himself as an angel of light and it is not surprising that his agents (in the form of mankind or spirits) discuises themselves as servants of righteousness.' 'Get rid of the yeast that rises the whole batch of dough.' 'Stay away from the people who are not the followers of the LORD (JESUS CHRIST according to the Holy Bible).' Yet do not deny them help as they come to you in their poor needs.
Spiritual people, learn to distinguish as you have been taught the Holy Scriptures between 'the spirit of error and the spirit of truth.' 'Blind guides themselves who reject the HOLY SPIRIT who inspired the Holy Scripture Bible, cannot guide others.' In ignorance and arrogance have been deceived and have come to deceive others. Stay awake and be alert to the scheme and devices of the enemy through man and spirits.
 
Revelations 17.

Babylon is not a physical woman; she is a church...
 
RachelBibleStudent said:
the prophecy specifically refers to jesus' -mother's sons-

his mother is mary...his mother's sons would be mary's sons...
Click to expand...

Apparently, you've never taken a course in Theology.
Jesus was born from the people of Israel. This is why there are no less than TWO lineages mentioned in the Gospels - one from Mary's side and one from Joseph's side. Prophecies are RARELY, if ever literal. Biblical prophecy is usually symbolic.

The "mother" being spoken of here in Psalm 69 is Israel.
The "brothers" are the Jews who rejected Him.
 
RachelBibleStudent said:
how could you have identified those brothers if matthew 12:46-47 and mark 3:31-32 and luke 8:19-20 and john 2:12 and acts 1:14 don't name them?

you are vastly overstating your case...
Click to expand...

Because the "brothers" (Adelphoi) are named elsewhere like in Matt. 13. They don't need to be named in every single verse that they are mentioned.

This is Bible 101 here.
 
You reject all who stray from Your statutes (Acts 2:1/ 1Cor. 5:7-8),
for their deceit is a lie. - Psalm 119:118, Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

You rebuke the proud—the cursed,
Who stray from Your commandments (1Cor. 7:19/ 1Jn 2:3-4). - Psalm 119:21, NKJV




forsaking the right way, they have gone astray … -2Peter 2:15, NASB

A spirit of prostitution leads them astray;
they are unfaithful to their God. – Hosea 4:12, NIV

… Come, I will show you the punishment of the great prostitute … – Rev. 17:1, NIV

… The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits. - Rev. 17:9, NIV


... the mother of prostitutes ... - Rev. 17:5, NIV
 
bleekerT said:
You reject all who stray from Your statutes (Acts 2:1/ 1Cor. 5:7-8),
for their deceit is a lie. - Psalm 119:118, Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

You rebuke the proud—the cursed,
Who stray from Your commandments (1Cor. 7:19/ 1Jn 2:3-4). - Psalm 119:21, NKJV


forsaking the right way, they have gone astray … -2Peter 2:15, NASB

A spirit of prostitution leads them astray;
they are unfaithful to their God. – Hosea 4:12, NIV

… Come, I will show you the punishment of the great prostitute … – Rev. 17:1, NIV

… The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits. - Rev. 17:9, NIV

... the mother of prostitutes ... - Rev. 17:5, NIV
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Many of your fellow anti-Catholics who used to believe in this Whore of Babylon rubbish about the Catholic Church have since learned from history that this is referring to the Roman Empire.
It's a shame that you haven't grasped what these verses are talking about.
 
RachelBibleStudent said:
now the most convincing objections to the myth of mary's 'perpetual virginity' are theological and moral...

the first problem is that it is blasphemous... if joseph is no longer permitted to 'know' mary because she has become the mother of the son of God...then you basically have God stealing a man's wife...which is the same thing God condemned herod for through john the baptist...

the second problem is that it accuses mary of sin... 1 corinthians 7:3-5 outlines the sexual responsibilities of married couples and allows only for temporary sexual self denial...there is no provision for 'perpetual virginity' within marriage... moreover refusing to even attempt to produce an heir was also a sin...so the myth of mary's 'perpetual virginity' basically makes her a female version of onan...

it is really past time for christians to stop putting up with this ridiculous misogynistic mythology...
Click to expand...





Rachel, you have a habit of ignoring the scripture that refutes your position. Blaspemous?! A sin? Misogynistic? Wrong, wrong, wrong.
In the same letter you quote from it also says clearly;
1 Corinthians 7:8
"Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I do."

Do you just read past these passages and immediately forget them?

You say, "if joseph is no longer permitted to 'know' mary..." ?? But no one has said that ("permitted"). You are refuting a claim no one has made. This is the modus operandi of a deceiver.
It is very possible that, in his advanced years, Joseph simply refrained by choice.
 
ChurchAuthority said:
Apparently, you've never taken a course in Theology.
Jesus was born from the people of Israel. This is why there are no less than TWO lineages mentioned in the Gospels - one from Mary's side and one from Joseph's side. Prophecies are RARELY, if ever literal. Biblical prophecy is usually symbolic.

The "mother" being spoken of here in Psalm 69 is Israel.
The "brothers" are the Jews who rejected Him.
Click to expand...

jesus' mother is mary...not israel...

unless you are ready to start calling israel the 'mother of God' :cool:
 
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