Scripture Based Flat Earth Proposition

[posthuman]

what if there is more than one thing called a firmament - as we see from other scripture there is more than one place called 'heaven'

in Genesis 1:7 God created "the firmament" separating waters above from waters below. the waters below He gathered and called seas. He called this firmament "heaven" - it is what we call the sky.

in Genesis 7:11 the flood began. He opened the windows of heaven (the firmament) and water fell on the earth. He called it rain. the waters above the firmament in Genesis 1:7 are clearly the clouds.

in Genesis 1:14-19 He set the sun, the moon and the stars in a different place, "the firmament of the heavens"

a firmament is not a glass fishbowl.
it is a space between things, and there is more than one. there is the sky, here on earth, and there is the vast expanse of space in which the stars and the sun and the moon and the planets are divided from one another.

flat earth relies on gross misinterpretation of scripture, of facts and of the observable physics of the world.

 

[Romans34]

it is a space between things, and there is more than one.

A firmament is an expanse between things (in this case, water and water), but no place in Genesis 1 allows for more than one. Verse 6 introduces the firmament by stating "And God said, Let there be a firmament . . ."; then every other reference calls it the firmament. That means there's only one, in which He placed all the "lights" and "fowl" (verses 14 - 20). Seems clear to me.

 

[posthuman]

A firmament is an expanse between things (in this case, water and water), but no place in Genesis 1 allows for more than one. Verse 6 introduces the firmament by stating "And God said, Let there be a firmament . . ."; then every other reference calls it the firmament. That means there's only one, in which He placed all the "lights" and "fowl" (verses 14 - 20). Seems clear to me.

He says "a" firmament.
then, on the next day, He says a a different thing, "the firmament of the heavens"


but you think the stars are below the clouds?

you have an observational reality problem with your misapplication of scripture.
or i guess you believe Satan uses a complex system of ropes, pulleys and mirrors to fool the entire world for 6,000 years into believing it can be cloudy outside.

Lol.
sorry but flat earth is a massive deception fail, that unfortunately works only on a select few ignorant people who have very strong urges that everyone else is ignorant instead of them.

 

[posthuman]

A firmament is an expanse between things (in this case, water and water), but no place in Genesis 1 allows for more than one. Verse 6 introduces the firmament by stating "And God said, Let there be a firmament . . ."; then every other reference calls it the firmament. That means there's only one, in which He placed all the "lights" and "fowl" (verses 14 - 20). Seems clear to me.

Please watch the sun or the moon either rise or set tonight or tomorrow morning and report to us all if it shrinks into dot only 30% smaller than it's apparent size at noon, 30 degrees above the horizon, or if it disappears over the horizon slowly and steadily such that at a certain point half of it is obscured by the horizon while the other half is visible and it hasn't changed visible diameter by more than 10%

OK?

Is actually opening your eyes and looking at the sky too much to ask? If so let me know that literal observation is off the table in your case: you prefer willful blindness above knowledge.

That will help me discern how to address you.
Thanks.

 

[Romans34]

He says "a" firmament.
then, on the next day, He says a a different thing, "the firmament of the heavens"

That's correct. There are two heavens within the firmament -- the atmosphere (where the fowl fly) and the area where all of the luminaries are found.

but you think the stars are below the clouds?

No. I believe stars are above the clouds. But the clouds are not "the waters which were above the firmament" Clouds are IN the firmament as well as sun, moon, and stars (just much lower).

 

[posthuman]

No. I believe stars are above the clouds. But the clouds are not "the waters which were above the firmament" Clouds are IN the firmament as well as sun, moon, and stars (just much lower).

then what are the waters above?

Genesis 7:11-12​

In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep were broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. And the rain was on the earth forty days and forty nights.​

​

there are waters above the firmament, and the firmament is called "heaven"
this equivalently says, the windows of the firmament were opened and the waters above fell on the earth 40 days and nights. it's rain that fell from the windows of the firmament.

clouds are made of water and they are separated from the land and seas by the sky. i don't see a problem here or an alternative.

 

[posthuman]

That's correct. There are two heavens within the firmament -- the atmosphere (where the fowl fly) and the area where all of the luminaries are found.

No.

at least two firmaments. the first which divided the waters above from the waters below, in which the birds fly. and a second firmament called the firmament of the heavens, in which the sun, moon, stars and planets are.

He differentiates between the two firmaments, not calling them the same firmament. the atmosphere is called heaven, singular, but there is another firmament above it, the firmament of the heavens, plural.

 

[Romans34]

then what are the waters above?

Genesis 7:11-12​

In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep were broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. And the rain was on the earth forty days and forty nights.​

​

there are waters above the firmament, and the firmament is called "heaven"
this equivalently says, the windows of the firmament were opened and the waters above fell on the earth 40 days and nights. it's rain that fell from the windows of the firmament.

clouds are made of water and they are separated from the land and seas by the sky. i don't see a problem here or an alternative.

Think for a moment (or longer if necessary) the possibility that before the flood there were no clouds, just the water above the firmament (where the windows of heaven opened releasing the rain upon the earth and later closed again stopping the rain) and the water below the firmament (where the fountains of the great deep were broken up). After the flood, according to the Psalmist (148:4), the waters that are above the heavens (firmament) are still there.

 

[Romans34]

No.

at least two firmaments. the first which divided the waters above from the waters below, in which the birds fly. and a second firmament called the firmament of the heavens, in which the sun, moon, stars and planets are.

He differentiates between the two firmaments, not calling them the same firmament. the atmosphere is called heaven, singular, but there is another firmament above it, the firmament of the heavens, plural.

Genesis 1
6 ¶And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. (*)
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8 And God called the firmament Heaven. [plural in the Hebrew -- Heavens] And the evening and the morning were the second day. (*)
9 ¶And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
. . .
14 ¶And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: (*)
15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. (*)
17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day. (*)
20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. (*) (*) (*) (*)
. . .
23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day. (*)

Just one firmament. Not just one heaven, but definitely just one firmament.

 

[posthuman]

Think for a moment (or longer if necessary) the possibility that before the flood there were no clouds, just the water above the firmament (where the windows of heaven opened releasing the rain upon the earth and later closed again stopping the rain) and the water below the firmament (where the fountains of the great deep were broken up). After the flood, according to the Psalmist (148:4), the waters that are above the heavens (firmament) are still there.

Yup there are still clouds. In fact it rained last night.

If outer space is made of water why does God call it rain in Genesis 7?
Rain falls from clouds, see Isaiah 45:8

 

[posthuman]

Genesis 1
6 ¶And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. (*)
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8 And God called the firmament Heaven. [plural in the Hebrew -- Heavens] And the evening and the morning were the second day. (*)
9 ¶And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
. . .
14 ¶And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: (*)
15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. (*)
17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day. (*)
20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. (*) (*) (*) (*)
. . .
23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day. (*)

Just one firmament. Not just one heaven, but definitely just one firmament.

Firmament and "firmament of the heavens"

Clearly two different things.


As I said before, flat earth relies on deliberate misinterpretation of scripture and willful ignorance of readily observed facts.

 

[posthuman]

You still haven't given any alternative explanation for what the waters above are.

 

[Romans34]

You still haven't given any alternative explanation for what the waters above are.

Water. The same stuff that fell to the earth (as rain) during the flood -- only what's left after God closed the windows of heaven.

 

[GaryA]

@posthuman - did you see/read this post? (post #440 in this thread)

The thing to remember is that - before the land appeared - before there was anything else - when it was just/only water - the 'waters' were divided by/with the 'firmament' (or, 'expanse') in between the water above and water below - everything following was then placed in the 'firmament'.

Let this sink in real good - then, go read Genesis 1 again...

 

[posthuman]

@posthuman - did you see/read this post? (post #440 in this thread)



Let this sink in real good - then, go read Genesis 1 again...

so you believe the stars are below the clouds?

that's crazy.

 

[posthuman]

Water. The same stuff that fell to the earth (as rain) during the flood -- only what's left after God closed the windows of heaven.

The waters saw You, O God;​

The waters saw You, they were afraid;​

The depths also trembled.​

The clouds poured out water;​

The skies sent out a sound;​

Your arrows also flashed about.
(Psalm 77:16-17)
​

sorry, but the Bible is quite clear that rain comes from clouds.

 

[GaryA]

so you believe the stars are below the clouds?

that's crazy.

No - what is crazy is you not paying attention to what others are actually saying and giving yourself time to "digest" it before making idiotic posts like the one quoted above - that is what is crazy.

 

[posthuman]

Water. The same stuff that fell to the earth (as rain) during the flood -- only what's left after God closed the windows of heaven.

the scripture is very, very clear that rain - water from above - comes from clouds.

He binds up the water in His thick clouds, Yet the clouds are not broken under it.
(Job 26:8)​

 

[GaryA]

sorry, but the Bible is quite clear that rain comes from clouds.

Where in the Bible does it say that clouds are the only place/thing that rain comes from?

 

[posthuman]

No - what is crazy is you not paying attention to what others are actually saying and giving yourself time to "digest" it before making idiotic posts like the one quoted above - that is what is crazy.

see post #821.