Scripture Based Flat Earth Proposition

[GaryA]

Actually, I should note, the Tiangong space station has greatly reduced gravity, thus the "floating visual effect", but it's not zero gravity.

If the gravitational pull of the earth - in concert with the gravitational pull of all of the other planets - help to keep the solar system intact and synchronized - how much gravity should be experienced at a space station at such a small distance (compared to the diameter of the solar system) from earth?

In other words, if the amount of gravitational pull the earth has on other planets is required to help keep the solar system intact - how can the effect of gravity at a 'space station' distance away from the earth possibly be anywhere even remotely close to zero?

I know what you are going to say - but, this is where the rubber meets the road and the truth presents itself in a most obvious way...

Only 'gravity' defies what no other laws of physics can - nowhere in any realm of physics does the "magic" of 'gravity' exist.

In every part of the realm of physics - whatever-effect is being examined - the effect is greater at a smaller distance than at a greater one. (As in the Inverse Square Law.)

However, "magic gravity" does the opposite - having greater effect on much larger 'targets' and/or over enormous distances than on much smaller 'targets' and/or over very short distances.

This is why 'gravity' is not believable by some - because it does not match the whole of the realm of [real] physics.

All known concepts, principles, and laws of physics obey the same - which God set up when He created our world.

However, 'gravity' is the exception - it does not obey the same concepts, principles, and laws of physics as everything else in the realm of physics.

It is completely inconsistent with all of physics. Therefore, it cannot be real and true.

Now - I will readily and happily agree that something "tells everything which way is down"; however, this is not according to the modern 'gravity' concept/idea/theory - whereby, the effect of 'gravity' is based [merely] on a relationship between the mass of objects - such that - in the midst of great-upheaval forces on greatly-massive objects, small objects have [virtually] no such effects on them. This makes no sense in that it runs directly against all of the whole realm of [real] physics.

That is why it is sometimes referred to as "magic gravity" - because, it totally defies all of the whole realm of [real] physics.

 

[Prodigal]

Shall we let the train get back on its tracks now...?

Hey Bro, I would like your permission to reprint here in this thread, my private correspondence to you from earlier, as to why I am no longer participating in this debate. Your comments excluded of course.

 

[GaryA]

Hey Bro, I would like your permission to reprint here in this thread, my private correspondence to you from earlier, as to why I am no longer participating in this debate. Your comments excluded of course.

If you wish - certainly - thanks for having the "common courtesy" to ask first...

Curious, however - why did you not ask this in the PM instead of the thread?

 

[GaryA]

Anyways, I don't know why people care so much about who's right when it comes to Christians. Eventually we'll know everything, so why bother arguing when we can all just wait for the full truth reveal?

It is not about who is right - it is about what is right - the truth.

At the point when the real truth about the physical nature of the world we live in becomes known and believed - with rare exception, a person's eyes are then opened to several other things which become painfully obvious as also being the truth.

Never in history has it been so critically important for the population of the world to "wake up" to the truth about the world they live in.

I believe that it will/would be very instrumental in helping a greater number of people come to Christ during the End Times Scenario.

 

[Prodigal]

Something else in this video is noteworthy - the sunspot - directly below the sun - cannot happen without a close sun.

If the sun were 93 million miles away, there is no way possible it could/would create a sunspot like we see in the video.

Only a local sun would even make that possible, It caught my eye as well. But remember what I said to you earlier? Notice how no one has bothered to respond? This is pointless Bruh. I know you want to be a blessing to our spinning ball brothers, but this entire conversation is completely counterproductive. You can’t make someone see what you see.

I’m a firm believer in the power of prayer.
Many years ago when I was doing a lot of evangelism and street ministry etc, the Lord spoke to my heart, His message could not have been more clear. The impression upon my heart and mind was this, Never speak to a man about me, unless you’ve spoken first to me about the man. Maybe the same applies here.

I’m not saying these brothers are lost, far from it. What I am saying is, if it’s the Lords will, they will come around, if it’s not they won’t. Maybe you’re right, maybe they’re right. I don’t see either side relenting regardless. Maybe none of us know what the heck we’re talking about. I don’t see the spinners ever accepting the possibility that they could be in error, as for myself, apart from the person of Christ and His redeeming and sanctifying work on my behalf, there aren’t too many views I presently hold that could not be altered with sufficient data.

But unless you or I are capable of strapping a rocket to our backside and gathering some incontrovertible data, these guys have several hundred years of science on their side. Is their science corrupt? Is it influenced by the current evil ruler of this realm? Does it seek to overthrow God at every turn, just as the dark prince has done from the beginning of time? On all points, yes. But they believe it. And my friend, you are NOT going to change their mind.

 

[Cold]

It is not about who is right - it is about what is right - the truth.

At the point when the real truth about the physical nature of the world we live in becomes known and believed - with rare exception, a person's eyes are then opened to several other things which become painfully obvious as also being the truth.

Never in history has it been so critically important for the population of the world to "wake up" to the truth about the world they live in.

I believe that it will/would be very instrumental in helping a greater number of people come to Christ during the End Times Scenario.

That's a fair point, I can see how one truth being revealed can make a series of truths become visible. Flat earth debunking could be used to reach a small few, but also, add debunking flat earth with many other topics being clarified could make a vast majority come the the truth of God. I guess I just have a disconnect on the matters that in my mind have no direct correlation to the deity of Jesus. Then when I see believers debating the small things, I wonder if there's any point in matters not relevant to salvation. But, if like you said, clarifying one truth leads to clarifying more. Then there's really no harm done. Unless of course, the statements are carried out in anger due to the differing opinions and assumed truths. At that point, the whole reason for debate becomes counter productive and just becomes a gateway to draw in sin. It possibly would push people away from finding the truth that could draw them to God. Unfortunately I have yet to ever find an internet debate that doesn't become heated in some way, so I always question why it should be started in the first place. Perhaps I am assuming there's heat in the conversation when there actually isn't. Who knows? I sure don't. Lol

 

[Prodigal]

If you wish - certainly - thanks for having the "common courtesy" to ask first...

Curious, however - why did you not ask this in the PM instead of the thread?

Pure convenience. Sorry.

 

[GaryA]

But remember what I said to you earlier? Notice how no one has bothered to respond?

Three things:

1) There may be one/some who will not even read a particular post for three days, a week, a month...

You have to remember that "conversations" on CC can be somewhat 'irregular' at times. People get on and off of here according to their own schedule/timing. You cannot always expect to see a response when you would like to see it. Sometimes, you must be patient and wait for it.

2) Sometimes "no response" equates to pondering/researching/thinking, etc.; albeit, unfortunately - often, others only make "reactionary" posts.

3) As a rule, others are not going to respond to something that they believe will put them in an uncomfortable spot if they do so...

 

[Romans34]

That's a fair point, I can see how one truth being revealed can make a series of truths become visible. Flat earth debunking could be used to reach a small few, but also, add debunking flat earth with many other topics being clarified could make a vast majority come the the truth of God. I guess I just have a disconnect on the matters that in my mind have no direct correlation to the deity of Jesus. Then when I see believers debating the small things, I wonder if there's any point in matters not relevant to salvation. But, if like you said, clarifying one truth leads to clarifying more. Then there's really no harm done. Unless of course, the statements are carried out in anger due to the differing opinions and assumed truths. At that point, the whole reason for debate becomes counter productive and just becomes a gateway to draw in sin. It possibly would push people away from finding the truth that could draw them to God. Unfortunately I have yet to ever find an internet debate that doesn't become heated in some way, so I always question why it should be started in the first place. Perhaps I am assuming there's heat in the conversation when there actually isn't. Who knows? I sure don't. Lol

The whole reason for the lies is to hide God. You cannot have millions of years if you don't have millions of miles.
If flat earth were proven beyond debate, and the whole world knew it, then they would also know:

1) There is no "outer space" and there are no space aliens.
2) The age of the earth is young.
3) There really is a God / Creator.
4) There really is a heaven and hell.
5) We are going to give an account to Him.

Yes, it really would make a difference. At lease Satan would have so much less to work with as to keep people's minds off of the obvious.

 

[GaryA]

That's a fair point, I can see how one truth being revealed can make a series of truths become visible. Flat earth debunking could be used to reach a small few, but also, add debunking flat earth with many other topics being clarified could make a vast majority come the the truth of God. I guess I just have a disconnect on the matters that in my mind have no direct correlation to the deity of Jesus. Then when I see believers debating the small things, I wonder if there's any point in matters not relevant to salvation. But, if like you said, clarifying one truth leads to clarifying more. Then there's really no harm done. Unless of course, the statements are carried out in anger due to the differing opinions and assumed truths. At that point, the whole reason for debate becomes counter productive and just becomes a gateway to draw in sin. It possibly would push people away from finding the truth that could draw them to God. Unfortunately I have yet to ever find an internet debate that doesn't become heated in some way, so I always question why it should be started in the first place. Perhaps I am assuming there's heat in the conversation when there actually isn't. Who knows? I sure don't. Lol

Why do people think that "the only thing that matters" is 'salvation'???

Sure - "it matters the most" - of course! However, it is not the only thing that is significant enough to make a positive difference if someone knows the truth.

 

[GaryA]

People get on and off of here according to their own schedule/timing.

And, speaking of such - I have to work tomorrow, so...

 

[Romans34]

I’m kind of busy today, way too busy to go through this entire thread pulling out our best arguments. So I’m going to post a couple of videos instead, one in particular that has over 100 rather compelling questions that ball earthers need to address.

Thank you for you contribution and I'll do it for you. Please find below the questions that have not been properly addressed as of yet.

Scripture Based Flat Earth Proposition (Part Four : The Question)
Since God placed the luminaries withIN the firmament . . .

In the days of Noah when He opened the windows of heaven,

how far did the water fall to the earth?

A hundred miles? A thousand miles? Or was it 25 trillion miles???

Proxima Centauri is said to be the closest star at 4.2465 light years away. That’s 24.93 trillion miles.

So how far did the water fall to the earth?

**Note also that about 1000 years before the coming of Christ (over 1300 years after the flood)

king David declared that the waters were still there when he wrote,

“Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that be above the heavens”.

View attachment 257281

Consider this illustration to put things into perspective. Based upon what we were taught, the sun and earth are 93,000,000 miles apart and Proxima Centauri is 24.93 trillion miles away. While there's not enough room to put a scale model on screen, this not-to-scale model (but with to-scale figures) will illustrate how inconsistant what we were all taught is with what the Word of God teaches (the reality).

Sun <----- 93,000,000 -----> Earth <-------------------------------- 24,930,000,000,000---------------------------------- Proxima Centauri

6" ball <------- 53'9" -------> .88" <--------------------------------- 2729 miles to the nearest star.

If you use a 6" ball (that's six inches in diameter) to represent the sun and a pinhead (just under 1/16 of an inch) to represent the earth, placing them 53'9" (that's 53 feet 9 inches) apart, then you will have a extremely accurate scale model of the size and distance of the sun and earth. Now if you take a nickel and place it 2729 miles away, you'll have a fairly accurate scale model of the nearest star (Proxima Centauri).

Matthew 24:29 states, "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"

Revelation 6:13 reads, "And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth . . ."

If you REALLY believe the Word of God, you'll have a problem believing that stars (many of them) the size of peas, marbles, nickels, and larger will travel greater distances than 2700 miles and fall to the earth one sixteenth of an inch in diameter. And the earth will maintain in orbit?

I'll ask once again, how far did the flood waters fall to the earth?

My mistake. That should be .88 / 16th's of an inch. Thank you for bringing it to my attention.

Gary, I've re-read this entire thread, and I don't see where anyone has argued against as to WHERE the "windows of heaven" are located (above the luminaries). NightTwister alluded to (based on your question) and ALMOST stated he believed the rain came from clouds, but there weren't rain-clouds before the flood, so I wouldn't hold him to it. I know the reason you asked the question was essentially to point out that no one is willing to address is the initial question of this thread: So how far did the water fall to the earth? It is the DISTANCE no one wants to deal with, but then, that's the point of the proposition, is to get one to think seriously about what the Word of God teaches in Genesis chapter 1. No one on a "Christian" forum wants to outright deny the Word of God, and they don't know what else to say (because It says what It says), do they don't say anything (at least not anything that addresses the thread's focus).

Has anyone demonstrated the [earth science] model explained on post #14? Done the math? Reasoned how inconsistant it is with Scripture? Anyone?

For your consideration:

Matthew 24:29

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"

Revelation 6:13

"And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind."

Revelation 12:4

"And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born."

Question: How far will those stars fall from heaven to earth?

Not to mention - the size of every star is considered (by the BE model) to be so much larger than the earth - how is that going to work?

So are the earthquake, sun, moon, and stars in Matthew 24 and Revelation 6 also metaphorical? And, if so, what do they represent?

I think somehow the point is being missed that the BE stars couldn't all fall to earth from 25 trillion miles away (most of which are so massive) without completely 'knocking' the earth out of 'orbit'.

Now WITHOUT addressing where the windows of heaven were located, clouds, and rain, let's start with step one:

Long before the flood, even before God made man, when He created the expanse (firmament) that He called Heaven(s), and placed the luminaries withIN this expanse, did / does this expanse encapsulate the entire know 'universe' with all it's galaxies, stars, planets, sun, moon, etc.? For those that may be interested, I am only interested in taking this ONE STEP AT THE TIME, so please answer ONLY this first question, and then we will take it logically from there. Thank You!

Ok. Now maybe we can use those brains that God gave us.

Next step. We will go with the reading that the "entire known universe" (all except His throne room, so to speak) are within the expanse. Now, that means that the water on the face of the earth is the water that was below the firmament (v.7, 9). Also, above the earth are all of the luminaries. That only leaves the water that was above the firmament. Next question. Remember -- ONE STEP AT THE TIME.

Do you believe that God lifted enough water off of the earth (leaving an approximate 25,000 miles diameter ball) that would stretch around an expanse billions of light years across? That is the question to answer, but if He did, what would be the purpose? Why did he need to separate the waters from the waters and create an expanse that large? Why didn't He simply place the luminaries above the earth and be done with it? Remember, He DID create the earth BEFORE all of the luminaries. It really doesn't take a "rocket scientist" to think this thing through.

When I read Genesis 1, I don't see multiple firmaments, just one.

6 ¶And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. (*)
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day. (*)

14 ¶And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: (*)
15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. (*)
17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

No matter how many heavens it included, there was only ONE expanse, within which were the luminaries, and water above and below. [The waters below being that on the face of the earth.]

I need to point out this very unique observation that I think most are overlooking. According to Genesis 1:6-10, the earth is NOT inside the firmament (expanse) along with the luminaries. The earth is distinctly BELOW the firmament, where the "below" the firmament waters were gathered together and called 'Seas'. If the earth is in "outer space", and "outer space" is in the expanse, that would put the earth IN the firmament of Heaven, and not below it. Read it again carefully and prayerfully.

 

[Prodigal]

Gary reached out to me and we had a brief private conversation. With his permission, I am reposting my comments in there entirety. My first thought was to remove a few parts that some might find offensive, I decided against it.

It was an interesting few days hanging out here on the chat. Thanks to all of you who showed me brotherly kindness.

I was going to stick around and try to find some productive threads to participate in, or start one of my own, I just don’t see the point. The diversity of views on this forum, and the tone in which they are presented here, it makes encouragement and edification (for me at least, your mileage may vary) almost impossible.

I came here to encourage, be encouraged, and share in the wonderful truth of the person and work of the Lord Jesus Christ and to fellowship with other believers in the Spirit. My experience has been quite different than what I hoped for.

So far I’ve been berated for not supporting one persons preferred political candidate and told that I’ll get what I deserve for not doing so. I’ve been called unwise, unlearned, and ungrateful by people who don’t know me from Adam. My strongest points have been ignored, my weaknesses exploited. The best conversation I had here was brief, and with someone I suspect wasn’t even a genuine person.

But worst of all, I found myself engaging in the same type of self righteous, self important, condescending behavior that was being directed towards me. And that is where I draw the line.

For anyone I’ve offended, please accept my sincere and humble apologies. Debate is fine, it’s healthy, or at least it should be. That doesn’t seem to be the case around here. That’s not an indictment, just an observation.

As a final attempt to encourage and bless my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ, please allow me to recommend a book or two.

Holiest of All. A Commentary on Hebrews
by Andrew Murray

The Evil of Evils
by Jeremiah Burroughs

The Doctrine of Repentance
by Thomas Watson

Christ Set Forth
by Thomas Goodwin
(I seriously labored through this brothers book, his writing style was painful to endure, and it was worth every moment)

My comments to Gary follow below.

“Thanks for the kind note. It is encouraging to know that we are not alone in our observations and understanding. Regardless of how far along this road towards true understanding each of us may have traveled thus far.

Sadly, we are in the minority. And it is becoming increasingly obvious to me, that most of those, who for whatever reasons are unable or unwilling to even question their indoctrination, shall never do so. This is clearly not a matter of intellect, but there are spiritual forces long at work that blind the hearts and minds of men. When a man submits to fantasy, opposed to all observable physical reality, when he can so easily dismiss his senses and chooses rather to embrace the absurd explanations of a class of people who have proven themselves hostile at every turn to the God he claims to know and trust, what can be done to change his mind, his direction, or his fate?

I’ve decided, after looking over the threads and particularly my own contributions to them, that this is a pointless endeavor, counterproductive, and as good intentioned as both sides may be, leads us all away from those more important topics, which if actively pursued, may at some point break the spell that so many of our brothers have fallen victim to. Hence, I’ve decided to opt out of this discussion going forward.

There is a fine line between the desire to share wisdom, and the need to be proven correct. I feel as if those of us on our side of the argument are regularly crossing this line, self included, it smacks of pride, and pride being the first great sin, it needs be repented of.

From now on I will confine myself to those weightier subjects that lead men closer to Christ, further from division, nearer to fellowship, and hopefully in doing so, eventually the globe crowd will come around in time.

My personal studies have suffered due to the time wasted on these divisive topics. While I still believe them to be of great importance, they pale in comparison to growing in our knowledge of Christ, His redemptive work in our lives, and the promise of sanctification offered to those of us who are called by His name.

Perhaps you would be willing to join me in opening up a new thread. I have been focusing my personal devotions of late on the Person and works of Jesus Christ, His excellency, His magesty, and His redemptive power. In just a short time, my faith as well as my faithfulness has grown through this process.

I came to this site for fellowship, what I’ve encountered so far. with few exceptions, has been quite the opposite. I’m going to make an effort to change that. If unsuccessful, I’ll just move on.

Thanks again for the kind note, and for your support in the threads. Blessings and mercy and peace in His Most Holy Name”.

Seeing as deleting my account is not an option. I’ll just leave it at that. I may be long winded, my apologies, but I am far from insincere or disingenuous. It’s been a long hard struggle getting to the place I currently find myself in my walk with Christ, I’m not about to risk it for the sake of winning or even participating in
arguments that go nowhere. I’m glad you guys are strong enough to banter and bicker as you do, I’m not. Shalom.

 

[Sculpt]

When I read Genesis 1, I don't see multiple firmaments, just one.
6 ¶And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. (*)
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day. (*)

14 ¶And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: (*)
15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. (*)
17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

No matter how many heavens it included, there was only ONE expanse, within which were the luminaries, and water above and below. [The waters below being that on the face of the earth.]

There is no "a" word in hebrew. It's added as a part of speech for the english KJV translation. There is a hebrew prefix character "הַ" (pronounced "hey") that is often used for "the". Not all the "the"s we see in the KJV of Gen 1 are there as "הַ". But that's not the point.

Yes, there's one expanse, one area in Gen 1 (expanse לָֽרָקִ֖יעַ raqia). Nobody is saying there isn't. Gen 1:8 gives the area a name: heaven הַשָּׁמָֽיִם׃ shamayim. The point is... one area can be comprised of different parts, obviously, as Genesis 1 does when it refers to the sky part of the area/expanse. Case in point Gen 1:20 reads birds fly above the earth in the expanse לָֽרָקִ֖יעַ of heaven הַשָּׁמָֽיִם׃. You do agree the verse is not saying birds fly amongst the stars, right? It's identifying an area of this whole area/expanse. It's using those two words. With context, we aren't thinking birds are flying with the stars.

Gen 1:6-10 is using the same words (expanse לָֽרָקִ֖יעַ and heaven הַשָּׁמָֽיִם׃) as Gen 1:20. God made an area/expanse in the mist (middle) of the waters, separating them into two parts: the waters below the area are seas, and waters above the area are clouds. On biblehub.com seven of nine commentaries acknowledge this reading. Here, the NIV uses the word "sky", not "heaven".

No one is asking you to agree with the interpretation, but do you at least understand this information?

 

[GaryA]

According to the Bible:

~ There is [exactly] one 'firmament'. (one expanse which is [called] the 'firmament')
~ There is water above the 'firmament'. (not in it but above it)
~ There is water below the 'firmament'. (not in it but below it)
~ The sun, moon, and stars are in the 'firmament'. (in the upper part of it)
~ The birds fly in the 'firmament'. (in the lower part of it)

If clouds were the water above the 'firmament', then the sun, moon, and stars would be below the clouds.

However, that is not what the Bible indicates. Rather, there is water above the sun, moon, and stars.

 

[Romans34]

Yes, there's one expanse, one area in Gen 1 (expanse לָֽרָקִ֖יעַ raqia). Nobody is saying there isn't. Gen 1:8 gives the area a name: heaven הַשָּׁמָֽיִם׃ shamayim. The point is... one area can be comprised of different parts, obviously, as Genesis 1 does when it refers to the sky part of the area/expanse. Case in point Gen 1:20 reads birds fly above the earth in the expanse לָֽרָקִ֖יעַ of heaven הַשָּׁמָֽיִם׃. You do agree the verse is not saying birds fly amongst the stars, right? It's identifying an area of this whole area/expanse. It's using those two words. With context, we aren't thinking birds are flying with the stars.

Gen 1:6-10 is using the same words (expanse לָֽרָקִ֖יעַ and heaven הַשָּׁמָֽיִם׃) as Gen 1:20. God made an area/expanse in the mist (middle) of the waters, separating them into two parts: the waters below the area are seas, and waters above the area are clouds. On biblehub.com seven of nine commentaries acknowledge this reading. Here, the NIV uses the word "sky", not "heaven".

No one is asking you to agree with the interpretation, but do you at least understand this information?

Yes I agree the birds are not flying amongst the stars. I thought we'd got past that. GaryA explained it well. No matter how many "parts" you divide the firmament into, the 'whole' expanse has water above and below. So if the waters above are clouds, then the luminaries are below the clouds. If the luminaries are above the clouds (and they certainly are), then clouds CANNOT be the "waters above the firmament", because the waters are above the expanse that includes the 1st heaven (where birds fly) and the 2nd heaven (where the luminaries reside).

biblehub.com (or any other source) doesn't hold the weight that the Word of God has. Make sure you understand what the Word is saying.

And Yes, I understand this information very well. Do you understand my response?

 

[Sculpt]

Yes I agree the birds are not flying amongst the stars. I thought we'd got past that. GaryA explained it well. No matter how many "parts" you divide the firmament into, the 'whole' expanse has water above and below. So if the waters above are clouds, then the luminaries are below the clouds. If the luminaries are above the clouds (and they certainly are), then clouds CANNOT be the "waters above the firmament", because the waters are above the expanse that includes the 1st heaven (where birds fly) and the 2nd heaven (where the luminaries reside).

biblehub.com (or any other source) doesn't hold the weight that the Word of God has. Make sure you understand what the Word is saying.

And Yes, I understand this information very well. Do you understand my response?

Yes, I understand your response and your interpretation on this issue. Sorry I didn't indicate that before. We've both been repeating our opinion without acknowledging that we understand what the other person is explaining.

I know you're saying the "the waters above the expanse" are either 1) around the entire universe, like on the outside of the "universe ballon"; 2) somehow above the earth; or 3) you don't know exactly. Yep, I got it. I believed the waters were in an "above dimension" myself for a couple weeks when you brought up this issue. So, I thank you for bringing up this interesting question to research.

Now that I've researched the issue, I think the best answer is Gen 1:1-20 describes:
1. God created heaven (universe) and earth. Heaven being anything above the surface of the earth (1:1)
2. God made an expanse/area to separate the waters into two. (1:6-7)
3. Waters above area of separation are clouds (1:6-7)
4. He named that area of separation Heaven, an area above the surface of the earth (sky). (1:8)
5. Waters below that area of separation are seas (1:8-10)
Add. Gen 1:20 reads the birds fly in the area of Heaven; thereby giving a logical answer to the question of where the water above that area of separation was: the sky.
Add. Gen 1:14 reads God created objects in the area/expanse above the surface of the earth (heaven) to create/reflect light: moon, sun, stars. For those looking up into the sky in 10000 BC, the intended message would be understood. It's not a science book.

And Yes, I understand this information very well.

I assume when you wrote this you mean you understand this reading of the text (1-Add above), as opposed to you saying, "I know what scripture reads, but don't understand what you wrote."

biblehub.com (or any other source) doesn't hold the weight that the Word of God has. Make sure you understand what the Word is saying.

How are you defining "the Word"? That's a rather odd (and telling) thing to say. Genesis is written in hebrew perhaps in the 10th century BC. The original books were written in ancient hebrew, aramaic and koine greek which contain specific words and sentence structures different than modern english and idioms tied to those traditions, cultures and histories. This information helps provide context for understanding what's in each of the books of the bible. I assume you don't read hebrew, right?

The KJV is consequently a thought-for-thought translation, not a word-for-word translation. Thought-for-thought involves interpretation. It's comparatively more word-for-word than most others, but not as much as Young’s Literal Translation. Which may be better for those who are educated about the culture, idioms and history and languages of each book. But less helpful for those who don't. KJV is an Anglican translation intended to make sense to 15th century english speakers. For those who don't read hebrew/koine greek, that might not be as helpful as the more modern translations.

Biblehub.com (& others) carries the KJV, NIV and many other translations; has the original hebrew, aramaic and greek with the best english definitions of those words; and commentaries which provide historical, cultural, idiom, linguistic and biblical context; and the interpretations of Church Fathers, theologians, scholars for verses/chapters. And one should also ask the Holy Spirit to help them understand what's written, meditate on it, and acquire knowledge (Pro 18:15). If you're sticking to the KJV by yourself, you're doing less than those who do that plus using a biblehub.com.

Here's a word-for-word Young’s Literal Translation of Hebrews 6:1 (but punctuation is added), "Wherefore, having left the word of the beginning of the Christ, unto the perfection we may advance, not again a foundation laying of reformation from dead works, and of faith on God,"

 

[GaryA]

According to the Bible:

~ There is [exactly] one 'firmament'. (one expanse which is [called] the 'firmament')
~ There is water above the 'firmament'. (not in it but above it)
~ There is water below the 'firmament'. (not in it but below it)
~ The sun, moon, and stars are in the 'firmament'. (in the upper part of it)
~ The birds fly in the 'firmament'. (in the lower part of it)

If clouds were the water above the 'firmament', then the sun, moon, and stars would be below the clouds.

However, that is not what the Bible indicates. Rather, there is water above the sun, moon, and stars.

I hope it was/is understood that I am specifically referring to the 'water separation' in/of Genesis 1.

I am not suggesting that there is no water/moisture/etc. in the 'firmament' [at all].

 

[Romans34]

So, I thank you for bringing up this interesting question to research.

You're welcome.

 

[GaryA]

No matter how many "parts" you divide the firmament into, the 'whole' expanse has water above and below. So if the waters above are clouds, then the luminaries

The thing to remember is that - before the land appeared - before there was anything else - when it was just/only water - the 'waters' were divided by/with the 'firmament' (or, 'expanse') in between the water above and water below - everything following was then placed in the 'firmament'.