about the baker who lost business when sued by "gays"
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Every Christian has to be led by conscience. If I were in the same situation, I would have to consider whether I was showing approval for gay marriage or not. I was briefly in a retail sales job. Some of the customers were obviously gay. I could not refuse to serve them and my conscience was clear. However, the baker's case is different.
Suppose I was a craftsman and a Neo Nazi commissioned me to make a swastika. Assume that its not illegal. Would I make a swastika? Now what is the difference between making a cake that celebrates gross sin and making an ode to Hitler's wicked regime? Would I be showing the love of Christ by making a swastika or making a stand against wickedness by saying no?
The idea that we all have to kowtow to the world and not offend anyone is false. The gospel is offensive and so is the Lord Jesus. They offend because sinners refuse to accept that they sin and that God condemns them for it.
Suppose I was a craftsman and a Neo Nazi commissioned me to make a swastika. Assume that its not illegal. Would I make a swastika? Now what is the difference between making a cake that celebrates gross sin and making an ode to Hitler's wicked regime? Would I be showing the love of Christ by making a swastika or making a stand against wickedness by saying no?
The idea that we all have to kowtow to the world and not offend anyone is false. The gospel is offensive and so is the Lord Jesus. They offend because sinners refuse to accept that they sin and that God condemns them for it.
I may be completely wrong, but there is a vast difference between making a cake (of my choice) based upon my principles, and making a swastica for a man who instructed thousands to murder millions of Jews and other "outcasts" according to Hilter. Seriously.
And you can give me a million of your red X's . . . I dun't care. You will never manipulate me in such a fashion so as to change my mind. Terrible practice, Gideon.
And you can give me a million of your red X's . . . I dun't care. You will never manipulate me in such a fashion so as to change my mind. Terrible practice, Gideon.
It's easy to be wise after the event. I doubt that the baker realised where it would all end up. Personally, I would have explained that my conscience prohibits me from making a cake that celebrates sin. It's not bigotry, it's standing up for righteousness. And homosexuals are increasingly militant.
It's no wonder that God's judgement is so obviously afflicting the world, especially the once "Christian" nations that are working hard to push God out of their lives. COVID, heatwaves, floods and droughts and other disasters are permitted by God to tell the world that He is not happy. The rise of China and the "rebirth" of Russia should be getting people's attention. People rightly say that climate change is due to human behaviour. It is, but not because of CO2. If the world returned to godliness, God's wisdom and grace would spare the world from the disasters that are commonplace now.
It's no wonder that God's judgement is so obviously afflicting the world, especially the once "Christian" nations that are working hard to push God out of their lives. COVID, heatwaves, floods and droughts and other disasters are permitted by God to tell the world that He is not happy. The rise of China and the "rebirth" of Russia should be getting people's attention. People rightly say that climate change is due to human behaviour. It is, but not because of CO2. If the world returned to godliness, God's wisdom and grace would spare the world from the disasters that are commonplace now.
Manipulate? In what way? And what if your principles preclude you making a cake for behaviour that God says is the result of deliberate denial of His existence?
I do not hate gays, or Nazis for that matter. Sin is sin. A wedding cake is a celebration of marriage. Marriage is what God deems it to be, not man's opinion.
Yes, there is a difference in degree in my example, although homosexuals spreading aids was a disaster for a very long time. The death toll is estimated at least 35 million people. WW2 killed 60 million, but that includes the war in Asia. Hitler had little to do with that.
The principle remains. Don't demand that I do something that my conscience forbids. OK, a less emotive example. Would you demand that a Muslim make you a ham sandwich? Where's the harm in that? Except that it is entirely against his religious beliefs. Telling the truth is not manipulation. You need to search your heart and see if God is trying to tell you something.
I do not hate gays, or Nazis for that matter. Sin is sin. A wedding cake is a celebration of marriage. Marriage is what God deems it to be, not man's opinion.
Yes, there is a difference in degree in my example, although homosexuals spreading aids was a disaster for a very long time. The death toll is estimated at least 35 million people. WW2 killed 60 million, but that includes the war in Asia. Hitler had little to do with that.
The principle remains. Don't demand that I do something that my conscience forbids. OK, a less emotive example. Would you demand that a Muslim make you a ham sandwich? Where's the harm in that? Except that it is entirely against his religious beliefs. Telling the truth is not manipulation. You need to search your heart and see if God is trying to tell you something.
The problem is that I'm not going to do, or think, as you want me to do and think. So, I'd take a step back and realize that you're a simple messenger. You are a servant . . . that's all. God does not require you to lay down His Laws, in fact, God does not require you . . . at . . . all. He doesn't. But it is your job to be a leader and a guide in your example of humility and simple human grace. Your job is to be kind and understanding, especially towards those who have yet to receive the Circumcision of Christ.
Instead of running around and correcting everyone, perhaps you ought to spend one to two years studying the Doctrine of Circumcision. Perhaps then you'll find a new attitude of Love.
I'm done with this thread. I'll be unwatching it as I find it to be rather exhausting . . . tromping through this shallow mud-puddle, a cloudy pool of poor doctrine.
Instead of running around and correcting everyone, perhaps you ought to spend one to two years studying the Doctrine of Circumcision. Perhaps then you'll find a new attitude of Love.
I'm done with this thread. I'll be unwatching it as I find it to be rather exhausting . . . tromping through this shallow mud-puddle, a cloudy pool of poor doctrine.
I read a very interesting story about how a saintly person was given a visit (or vision?) or whatever from Jesus Himself and Jesus told this person that 1) the sin of homosexual acts was what got God so angry He destroyed several cities... and 2) the sin is so disgusting that even though demons urge people on to commit this act, even they leave the person..
which is rather strange since... you'd think it would invite even more demons into the person...
I am not sure whether that story has been "accepted" by the Church officially...
which is rather strange since... you'd think it would invite even more demons into the person...
I am not sure whether that story has been "accepted" by the Church officially...
I'm not a baker. However, if I were I too would bake the cakes requested.
This same Colorado baker made news for refusing a mother's request for a rainbow styled birthday cake for her daughter who loved rainbows.
If Christians in business stop serving the sinner public we'd be out of business.
Besides, marriage in God's eyes is between one man and one woman.
Baking a cake for gays entering into what they call marriage, is baking a cake for what the state calls marriage.
Not God.
Big difference.
In other news, the Pennsylvania high court recently ruled Catholic adoption agencies can refund to place children in gay and Transgender homes.
This ruling insures all Christian grounded adoption agencies there can also refuse.
That is righteous and very good news.
This same Colorado baker made news for refusing a mother's request for a rainbow styled birthday cake for her daughter who loved rainbows.
If Christians in business stop serving the sinner public we'd be out of business.
Besides, marriage in God's eyes is between one man and one woman.
Baking a cake for gays entering into what they call marriage, is baking a cake for what the state calls marriage.
Not God.
Big difference.
In other news, the Pennsylvania high court recently ruled Catholic adoption agencies can refund to place children in gay and Transgender homes.
This ruling insures all Christian grounded adoption agencies there can also refuse.
That is righteous and very good news.
Why not make a big "Jesus Loves You" cake. If they are coming to you for your artistic expression why not? On the other hand if they are dictating exactly what the cake should look like then it is no longer artwork, it is like hiring a painter to paint your house. Have an apprentice do it.
Instead of saying no, simply have a contract that gives them the option of having you design a cake for the occasion with full artistic liberty or else contract with you to make a cake according to their specifications which you are free to subcontract out. Their choice, hire you the artist or hire you the local baker.
Make sure the "Jesus Loves You" cake is gorgeous with a depiction of Jesus and His bride. Use it as an opportunity to preach the gospel and not as an opportunity to judge others. We are in the world but not of the world.
Instead of saying no, simply have a contract that gives them the option of having you design a cake for the occasion with full artistic liberty or else contract with you to make a cake according to their specifications which you are free to subcontract out. Their choice, hire you the artist or hire you the local baker.
Make sure the "Jesus Loves You" cake is gorgeous with a depiction of Jesus and His bride. Use it as an opportunity to preach the gospel and not as an opportunity to judge others. We are in the world but not of the world.
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Amen . . . ZNP. As Christians, we need to find a way to reach the "lost." Is it really that hard, or, do we just need to make such a process difficult and painful.
We don't allocate punishment . . . the Lord does!
Matthew 5:43-45 NKJV - "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' "But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, "that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust."
When we do exactly what we ARE TOLD, then we can know that we are "sons of our Father in Heaven."
We don't allocate punishment . . . the Lord does!
Matthew 5:43-45 NKJV - "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' "But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, "that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust."
When we do exactly what we ARE TOLD, then we can know that we are "sons of our Father in Heaven."