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Who was Jesus before he became a human? The same person he was after he returned to Heaven. And as I have twice quoted, the above makes it clear who the Apostle Paul thought Jesus was.
I believe it is a tragedy when we are not willing to follow plainly written scripture, and that written by the author of nearly half the boos of the NT.
Well I konw that I have nowhere near the spiritual insight or knowledge the Apostle Paul had, if others feel differently that is up to them
I believe it is a tragedy when we are not willing to follow plainly written scripture, and that written by the author of nearly half the boos of the NT.
Well I konw that I have nowhere near the spiritual insight or knowledge the Apostle Paul had, if others feel differently that is up to them
D
Well you said.. this seems to be a pattern for my postings.. So, because if I am doing some wrong. And you said: Dutch.. look first to your own posting.. I agree with you.. So, I can think I type with respect for the other.. but because I don't know how it come over.. And I wanted to be a witness, I have to confrontate with my postings.. so I can see and learn how I have to write it more better. 
You can gave me a Pm if you want. But if you decide to do it here.. it is fine with me too
You can gave me a Pm if you want. But if you decide to do it here.. it is fine with me too
24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all(1 Corinthians 15:24-28).
There is 2 beings according to these scriptures but it is not God the Father and a created god,and it is not God the Father and a second person of a trinity.
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus(1 Timothy 2:5).
Our mediator is the man Christ Jesus.Our Saviour is the man Christ Jesus.
Only a sinless man can approach a holy God on man's behalf.
No man is sinless so God manifest Himself in flesh,the man Christ Jesus,and gave us His human body as a sacrifice to take away our sins.
God reconciled sinful man back to Himself in the person of Jesus Christ,fully God and fully man in harmony.Father and Son,the man Christ Jesus,in harmony and all who receive the Spirit will be Father and human in harmony.
God's right hand represents power,wisdom,and salvation.
Jesus said that all power in heaven and earth is given to Him.
The Bible says that Jesus is on the right hand of God.
God gave all power and authority to the man Christ Jesus because He is our Saviour.
Jesus is God manifest in the flesh,so God still has all the power but He is ruling by the man Christ Jesus.
Because the man Christ Jesus is our Saviour He must rule until all His enemies are conquered.
The Bible says that Jesus will have all power and authority,which is represented by sitting on the right hand of God,until a certain time,and then when all His enemies are conquered God will stop ruling by the man Christ Jesus and God will be all in all.
Jesus is God manifest in the flesh so God still has all power but He is ruling by the man Christ Jesus.
The Bible says that there is one throne in heaven and one who sits on the throne which is the throne of God and the Lamb,God the Father in the glorified body of the man Christ Jesus.
Jesus on the right hand of God does not mean He has a throne next to the Father,but that God gave the man Christ Jesus all power in heaven and earth until a certain time,then God will stop ruling by the man Christ Jesus,God's personal bodily manifestation,and God will be all in all.
Jesus is God manifest in the flesh,which means that God gave all His attributes to the man Christ Jesus,and the Spirit in Christ is connected to the omnipresent Spirit of God for God cannot be separated,and God's visible manifestation to the saints in heaven.
25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish(Ephesians 5:25-27).
The Bible says the Son shall deliver up the kingdom to God the Father.The kingom is the Church.
The Bible says that Jesus will present the Church to Himself.
Jesus is God manifest in the flesh,fully God and fully man so Jesus as a man will present the Church,kingdom,to Himself as God.
There is 2 beings in 1 Corinthians 15:24-28,but it is not God the Father and a created god,and it is not God the Father and a second person of a trinity,but it God the Father and the Son,the man Christ Jesus.
God is an omnipresent Spirit and is the same throughout His omnipresent Spirit with no distinction of persons.
The Bible says that God is in all and through all.In the Son,the man Christ Jesus,God manifest all His attributes and the Spirit in the Son,the man Christ Jesus,is still connected to the omnipresent Spirit of God for God cannot be separated.Jesus is not a created god or a second person of a trinity,but He is the fulness of the attributes of God,making Him God in a bodily manifestation,and the Spirit in the Son,the man Christ Jesus,is still connected to the omnipresent Spirit of God.
In the siants God manifested partial attributes.
The only difference between the Son and the saints,is the Son has the fulness of God's attributes,and the siants have partial attributes,but the Son is not a created god or a second person of a trinity but God the Father showing us a visible manifestation of Himself,and the Spirit in the Son is still connected to the omnipresent Spirit of God which has no distinction of persons.
7If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. 11Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake(John 14:7-11).
8Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power(Colossians 2:8-10).
14That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
15Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 16Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen(1 timothy 6:14-16).
Jesus is the only Potentate,Ruler,and no man can see Him,nor ever will see Him,because He is God the Father which no man can ever see,but we can only see a visible manifestation of the Father as the Lord Jesus Christ,God the Father in the glorified body of the Son,the man Christ Jesus.
God showed Himself to Abraham as a man,but you would not say that it is another personality or another God,but a visible manifestation of God the Father.
God showed Himself to us as a man,Jesus Christ,but you cannot say it is another personality or another God,because it is a visible manifestation of God the Father,but a permanent manifestation of God,for that is how we will see the invisble God in heaven,and the Spirit in the Son,the man Christ Jesus,is still connected to the ominpresent Spirit of God as one omnipresent Spirit of God with no distinction of persons and cannot be separated.
Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any(Isaiah 44:8).
Matt
25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all(1 Corinthians 15:24-28).
There is 2 beings according to these scriptures but it is not God the Father and a created god,and it is not God the Father and a second person of a trinity.
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus(1 Timothy 2:5).
Our mediator is the man Christ Jesus.Our Saviour is the man Christ Jesus.
Only a sinless man can approach a holy God on man's behalf.
No man is sinless so God manifest Himself in flesh,the man Christ Jesus,and gave us His human body as a sacrifice to take away our sins.
God reconciled sinful man back to Himself in the person of Jesus Christ,fully God and fully man in harmony.Father and Son,the man Christ Jesus,in harmony and all who receive the Spirit will be Father and human in harmony.
God's right hand represents power,wisdom,and salvation.
Jesus said that all power in heaven and earth is given to Him.
The Bible says that Jesus is on the right hand of God.
God gave all power and authority to the man Christ Jesus because He is our Saviour.
Jesus is God manifest in the flesh,so God still has all the power but He is ruling by the man Christ Jesus.
Because the man Christ Jesus is our Saviour He must rule until all His enemies are conquered.
The Bible says that Jesus will have all power and authority,which is represented by sitting on the right hand of God,until a certain time,and then when all His enemies are conquered God will stop ruling by the man Christ Jesus and God will be all in all.
Jesus is God manifest in the flesh so God still has all power but He is ruling by the man Christ Jesus.
The Bible says that there is one throne in heaven and one who sits on the throne which is the throne of God and the Lamb,God the Father in the glorified body of the man Christ Jesus.
Jesus on the right hand of God does not mean He has a throne next to the Father,but that God gave the man Christ Jesus all power in heaven and earth until a certain time,then God will stop ruling by the man Christ Jesus,God's personal bodily manifestation,and God will be all in all.
Jesus is God manifest in the flesh,which means that God gave all His attributes to the man Christ Jesus,and the Spirit in Christ is connected to the omnipresent Spirit of God for God cannot be separated,and God's visible manifestation to the saints in heaven.
25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish(Ephesians 5:25-27).
The Bible says the Son shall deliver up the kingdom to God the Father.The kingom is the Church.
The Bible says that Jesus will present the Church to Himself.
Jesus is God manifest in the flesh,fully God and fully man so Jesus as a man will present the Church,kingdom,to Himself as God.
There is 2 beings in 1 Corinthians 15:24-28,but it is not God the Father and a created god,and it is not God the Father and a second person of a trinity,but it God the Father and the Son,the man Christ Jesus.
God is an omnipresent Spirit and is the same throughout His omnipresent Spirit with no distinction of persons.
The Bible says that God is in all and through all.In the Son,the man Christ Jesus,God manifest all His attributes and the Spirit in the Son,the man Christ Jesus,is still connected to the omnipresent Spirit of God for God cannot be separated.Jesus is not a created god or a second person of a trinity,but He is the fulness of the attributes of God,making Him God in a bodily manifestation,and the Spirit in the Son,the man Christ Jesus,is still connected to the omnipresent Spirit of God.
In the siants God manifested partial attributes.
The only difference between the Son and the saints,is the Son has the fulness of God's attributes,and the siants have partial attributes,but the Son is not a created god or a second person of a trinity but God the Father showing us a visible manifestation of Himself,and the Spirit in the Son is still connected to the omnipresent Spirit of God which has no distinction of persons.
7If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. 11Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake(John 14:7-11).
8Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power(Colossians 2:8-10).
14That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
15Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 16Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen(1 timothy 6:14-16).
Jesus is the only Potentate,Ruler,and no man can see Him,nor ever will see Him,because He is God the Father which no man can ever see,but we can only see a visible manifestation of the Father as the Lord Jesus Christ,God the Father in the glorified body of the Son,the man Christ Jesus.
God showed Himself to Abraham as a man,but you would not say that it is another personality or another God,but a visible manifestation of God the Father.
God showed Himself to us as a man,Jesus Christ,but you cannot say it is another personality or another God,because it is a visible manifestation of God the Father,but a permanent manifestation of God,for that is how we will see the invisble God in heaven,and the Spirit in the Son,the man Christ Jesus,is still connected to the ominpresent Spirit of God as one omnipresent Spirit of God with no distinction of persons and cannot be separated.
Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any(Isaiah 44:8).
Matt
Hi Imoss
It appears from reading mpaper's comment that he believes Jesus is God in human flesh/form in Heaven. I have never heard this before, nor do I believe it. Jesus is Spirit in Heaven, not flesh. He existed before the world began, not in human flesh, this only happened when He came to earth.
I agree there is only one true God, but God gave Jesus the name God(Heb1:9)
I believe it is entirely wrong to say Jesus is God the Father. If anyone can show me a verse in scripture where Jesus, or the writers of the NT state plainly, 'Jesus is God the Father I will accept it. Because to me scripture is the word of God. People can point to verses that they believe show Jesus is God the Father, but there is no verse that actually says he is.
If Jesus was God the Father would the Apostles not have plainly said he was? Would they not have made this plain to us? But I can point to many explicit verses of scripture that state Jesus is not God the Father.
I have on many occasoins discussed this subject exhaustively, so I do not wish once again to have to produce all of the scriptures backing up what I am saying, but I will give you my opinion. And it is an opinion as I do not believe anyone fully understands the exact mechanisms or working of Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
I believe that God the Father is Spirit and unseen. Jesus said no-one has ever seen God the Father except Jesus. I believe the Spirit of the Father exhibits in Christ, but this does not make Jesus God the Father, as backed up by numerous plain scripture. We also have the Holy Spirit, which the Bible says is the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Jesus, this confirms to me that Jesus embodies the Spirit of His Father. Therefore the Father, Son, and Spirit are as one in the Spirit of the Father, but with three individual, persons in that trinity.
Personally I like the view that it is an equal trinity but with a heirarchy in that with God the Father at the head.
If Jesus only existed in flesh/huiman form to save us and be our mediator with the Father, why would he have existed simply in human form before he came to earth? He existed before the world began?
The Apostle Paul is clear. Jesus will be subject to God the Father once the kingdom has been handed over to Him.
Spurgeon said that Jesus is our Father of the new Covenant, but in relation to the Trinity he is the son. Spurgeon was adamant, Jesus is not God the Father, and God the Father is not Jesus. To say that in order to be a Christian we have to believe that Jesus is God the Father is totally unscriptural and not based on what the plain, emphatic statements of the Bible actually say.
I can only repeat. If anyone can show me a plain scripture verse in the NT where it is written. 'Jesus is God the Father' I will hapopily debate this.
I can show many scriptures that clearly state Jesus is not.
It appears from reading mpaper's comment that he believes Jesus is God in human flesh/form in Heaven. I have never heard this before, nor do I believe it. Jesus is Spirit in Heaven, not flesh. He existed before the world began, not in human flesh, this only happened when He came to earth.
I agree there is only one true God, but God gave Jesus the name God(Heb1:9)
I believe it is entirely wrong to say Jesus is God the Father. If anyone can show me a verse in scripture where Jesus, or the writers of the NT state plainly, 'Jesus is God the Father I will accept it. Because to me scripture is the word of God. People can point to verses that they believe show Jesus is God the Father, but there is no verse that actually says he is.
If Jesus was God the Father would the Apostles not have plainly said he was? Would they not have made this plain to us? But I can point to many explicit verses of scripture that state Jesus is not God the Father.
I have on many occasoins discussed this subject exhaustively, so I do not wish once again to have to produce all of the scriptures backing up what I am saying, but I will give you my opinion. And it is an opinion as I do not believe anyone fully understands the exact mechanisms or working of Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
I believe that God the Father is Spirit and unseen. Jesus said no-one has ever seen God the Father except Jesus. I believe the Spirit of the Father exhibits in Christ, but this does not make Jesus God the Father, as backed up by numerous plain scripture. We also have the Holy Spirit, which the Bible says is the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Jesus, this confirms to me that Jesus embodies the Spirit of His Father. Therefore the Father, Son, and Spirit are as one in the Spirit of the Father, but with three individual, persons in that trinity.
Personally I like the view that it is an equal trinity but with a heirarchy in that with God the Father at the head.
If Jesus only existed in flesh/huiman form to save us and be our mediator with the Father, why would he have existed simply in human form before he came to earth? He existed before the world began?
The Apostle Paul is clear. Jesus will be subject to God the Father once the kingdom has been handed over to Him.
Spurgeon said that Jesus is our Father of the new Covenant, but in relation to the Trinity he is the son. Spurgeon was adamant, Jesus is not God the Father, and God the Father is not Jesus. To say that in order to be a Christian we have to believe that Jesus is God the Father is totally unscriptural and not based on what the plain, emphatic statements of the Bible actually say.
I can only repeat. If anyone can show me a plain scripture verse in the NT where it is written. 'Jesus is God the Father' I will hapopily debate this.
I can show many scriptures that clearly state Jesus is not.
D
We have to understand when Paul said in 1Tim 3:16
2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
He is actually talking here about the Old Testament.
When Paul wrote in the Greek the word God (Theos) and the word Lord (Kurios).. we have to understand too, that Paul didn't taucht a new doctrine. We have to understand that all of the Churches in that time, spoke the Greek language. And their Bible was actually not the Hebrew Bible, (because they couldn't read and speak it), but the Greek language. The Septuaginta was written for Jews who didn't spoke Hebrew anymore and was made between 250-100 BC.... In the NT is in many cases (not always), quoted from the Septuaginta.
To prove this I will show some, what is written in the book of Corinthe:
1 Corinthians 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
The Septuaginta
Isaiah 29:14 Therefore behold I will proceed to remove this people, and I will remove them: and I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will hide the understanding of the prudent.
The MT (Masoretic Text):
Isaiah 29:14 Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, [even] a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise [men] shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent [men] shall be hid.
And I will show another quote:
1 Corinthians 3:20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.
Septuaginta
Psalms 93:11 The Lord knows the thoughts of men, that they are vain.
MT
Psalms 94:11 The LORD knoweth the thoughts of man, that they [are] vanity.
In the TeNaCH, the God revealed Him self as YHWH, (what probably means: I am)
(The TeNaCH is the Old Testament from the Jews)
And now comes the interesting part: In the Septuaginta YHWH is translated with Kurios. And we translated with Lord. Like the YHWH part is translated with LORD.
When, the Paul talk about 1 Corinthians 3.20, and he quote Ps 93:11, He quote from the Septuaginta.
When we study the Masoretic text we know that there is written: YHWH knows... : The Septuaginta said: Kurious knows.
So we understand Kurious is YHWH. But when Paul said: Kurious knows.. We know that there is one Kurious. Now the question is: What would the Corinthians thought, when they heard that there is one Kurios.
Because we understand that they only got the Septuaginta. They assiociate Kurios with YHWH.
I want to take you to the Shema..
The MT said: HEAR, O ISRAEL: THE LORD OUR GOD, THE LORD IS ONE]
YHWH our Elohiem, YHWH is one.
What does the Septuaginta said: Akoue, Israel, kurios ho theos hemoon, kurios heis esti.
Or: Hear Israel, The Lord our God , The Lord is one.
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]What did Jesus said in Mr 12:29:[/FONT]
[FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]And Jesus answered him, "The first of all the commandments is: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God is one Lord.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]He said: Hear, O Israel, Kurios our Theos, is one Kurios.[/FONT]
Jesus said: there is one(1) Kurios.
Let us take a look at 1Cor 8:6
yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we unto him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we through him.
What would the Corinthians thought when Paul said: there is one Theos, the Father, of whom are all things, and we unto him; and one Kurios.
We know, that the believers know that Kurios mean YHWH. And when Paul said: There is only one Kurios, Jesus Christ. He said actually... There is one YHWH, called Jesus Christ. We have really understand if that wasn't the meaning.. Paul taught blasefemie.
Because Jesus Him self said: There is one Kurios..and that is YHWH
And if Paul said: there is one Kurious, we don't have to doubt that He mean: Jesus is the Kurios.
==
And when we look at the unity... in this.. well when we looked at the Scriptures
1Thess 1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
We see the unity in the words Grace be unto you, and peace. From God our Father and Lord Jesus Christ..
P
Hello Again Dutch,
I sort of figured that perhaps you were having trouble finding the proper English words to convey your thoughts. For the most part you did fairly well except where I indicated to you I was having some difficulty understanding what you meant to say.
Well Dutch, correct me if I am wrong, but based on the comments you have been making thus far, it is quite obvious to me that you ARE of the ONENESS culture, even though you have not come out and said so directly.
I don’t want to keep beating this particular “horse” to death too much longer, but there are a couple of things you said about my last post that require a response from me.
Well now, I sure would like you to point me to where I said: “YHWH rules over Jesus.”
And even if I had said such a thing how can you conclude from it that I actually said “……Jesus did sin”?
Let me ask you a couple of questions. Who was “the mother of all living” taken out from? Who was your first great………….grand father?
Gen 2:23-24; 3:20 “And the man said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife………And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.”
See the connection yet? You would not be “living” right now were it not for your first great……..grand father, ADAM, out of whom “the mother of all living”, EVE, was taken!
.
It is written:
1Cor. 8:6 “Yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we unto him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we through him.”
And it is again written:
John 16:27-28 “For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God. I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.”
It is also written:
1Cor. 11:3 “But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.”
And it is further written that:
GOD is LIGHT
GOD is LOVE
GOD is HOLY
GOD is SPIRIT
GOD is INVISIBLE
GOD had NO BIGINNING
GOD is WITHOUT END
GOD’S name is YHWH
Before creation began GOD was ALL IN HIMSELF. And because GOD is Who He is and because he STRONGLY DESIRES to give of HIMSELF and SHARE what He has, He determined to became a FATHER and have a family composed of sons and daughters who are created in HIS IMAGE so that after a SET time period of “training”, He may become ALL IN ALL.
Therefore:
GOD brought forth a VISIBLE IMAGE of Himself, A FIRSBORN SON, Who is the BEGINNING of the CREATION of GOD.
He is known as: THE WORD, THE LAMB OF GOD (SLAIN BEFORE a single sin entered the world), the LORD JESUS CHRIST
And GOD, THE FATHER, through JESUS CHRIST, THE LORD, then created:
TIME
The HEAVENS
The EARTH
Things VISIBLE
Things INVISIBLE
POWERS
PRINCIPALITIES
THRONES
DOMINIONS
YOU and ME and every ATOM that exists
And that, in a nutshell, is the greatest story you will ever read and it is only found in the WORD OF GOD.
I sort of figured that perhaps you were having trouble finding the proper English words to convey your thoughts. For the most part you did fairly well except where I indicated to you I was having some difficulty understanding what you meant to say.
Well Dutch, correct me if I am wrong, but based on the comments you have been making thus far, it is quite obvious to me that you ARE of the ONENESS culture, even though you have not come out and said so directly.
I don’t want to keep beating this particular “horse” to death too much longer, but there are a couple of things you said about my last post that require a response from me.
Well now, I sure would like you to point me to where I said: “YHWH rules over Jesus.”
And even if I had said such a thing how can you conclude from it that I actually said “……Jesus did sin”?
Let me ask you a couple of questions. Who was “the mother of all living” taken out from? Who was your first great………….grand father?
Gen 2:23-24; 3:20 “And the man said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife………And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.”
See the connection yet? You would not be “living” right now were it not for your first great……..grand father, ADAM, out of whom “the mother of all living”, EVE, was taken!
.
It is written:
1Cor. 8:6 “Yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we unto him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we through him.”
And it is again written:
John 16:27-28 “For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God. I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.”
It is also written:
1Cor. 11:3 “But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.”
And it is further written that:
GOD is LIGHT
GOD is LOVE
GOD is HOLY
GOD is SPIRIT
GOD is INVISIBLE
GOD had NO BIGINNING
GOD is WITHOUT END
GOD’S name is YHWH
Before creation began GOD was ALL IN HIMSELF. And because GOD is Who He is and because he STRONGLY DESIRES to give of HIMSELF and SHARE what He has, He determined to became a FATHER and have a family composed of sons and daughters who are created in HIS IMAGE so that after a SET time period of “training”, He may become ALL IN ALL.
Therefore:
GOD brought forth a VISIBLE IMAGE of Himself, A FIRSBORN SON, Who is the BEGINNING of the CREATION of GOD.
He is known as: THE WORD, THE LAMB OF GOD (SLAIN BEFORE a single sin entered the world), the LORD JESUS CHRIST
And GOD, THE FATHER, through JESUS CHRIST, THE LORD, then created:
TIME
The HEAVENS
The EARTH
Things VISIBLE
Things INVISIBLE
POWERS
PRINCIPALITIES
THRONES
DOMINIONS
YOU and ME and every ATOM that exists
And that, in a nutshell, is the greatest story you will ever read and it is only found in the WORD OF GOD.
D
Hoi Pondre
No I am not a oneness or a trinitarian.. If people wanted to lable me.. it is ok with me. But for me Jesus is God. The Bible is clear about that.. When your statement is: Jesus is Kurios.. and there is one Kurios.. you have to know.. that Jesus said: There is one Kurious too... and that is YHWH.
For now I am leaving to Israel.. and I am back in 10 or 12 days. My response I will given in about 14 days.
In this I will answer you..
But unfortunately you didn't answer me.. who was Jesus before He was a human.
GBY
No I am not a oneness or a trinitarian.. If people wanted to lable me.. it is ok with me. But for me Jesus is God. The Bible is clear about that.. When your statement is: Jesus is Kurios.. and there is one Kurios.. you have to know.. that Jesus said: There is one Kurious too... and that is YHWH.
For now I am leaving to Israel.. and I am back in 10 or 12 days. My response I will given in about 14 days.
In this I will answer you..
But unfortunately you didn't answer me.. who was Jesus before He was a human.
GBY
P
I agree that part of Paul’s instruction here about “all Scripture” included the OT but it also must have included the Epistles and letters he had written to the churches as well. Keep in mind that at the time Paul wrote this particular Epistle, he must have been preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ for over 30 years. He was in prison at the time and knew he was close to his “dissolution”.
Also keep in mind that Paul was one of the foremost Hebrew scholars of his day. He was well educated and wealthy. He was well versed in the Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek languages. So that when he requested Timothy bring him the BOOKS (Grk” “biblion”) and especially the PARCHMENTS you can bet it included 30 years worth of HIS writings as well.
2 Tim 4:13 The cloak that I left at Troas with Carpus, bring when thou comest, and the BOOKS, especially the PARCHMENTS.
Of course Paul did not have to teach new doctrine to the Jews regarding the fact that to us “……there is one God, the Father and one Lord, Jesus Christ…..” They already were well acquainted with that revelation. But Paul DID have to teach the multi-god worshipping Greek converts at Corinth this important fact. To them it was new doctrine. That is why he said that not EVERYONE has that knowledge. The church at Corinth was composed of both Jews and Gentiles.
That is totally incorrect and just about every scholar will disagree with your conclusion here. ALL CHURCHES did not just speak ONLY Greek nor were the Scriptures they used only in Greek. Jesus Christ did not speak in Greek when He went into the Temple and the Synagogues in Jerusalem or Judea or in some of the other surrounding towns in order to teach or debate with the Pharisees. They probably would have thrown Him out or outright stoned them on the spot in some of those places.
And neither did the Apostles when they were doing the same thing in the same places. And neither was the Septuagint used exclusively in those places.
The languages spoken at that time were Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek and likely Latin as well. The Jews were and still are very zealous of their heritage and they would have used Hebrew to communicate with each other. In fact, the Gospel of Matthew was written in Hebrew.
On the other hand, the Jews of the Diaspora, living in Greek cities and other nations, would have been the ones more in need of a Greek version of the OT.
It is a well known fact that the oldest versions of the Septuagint did not show the word “kurios” in those places where it is seen now. Instead, the early Jewish translators left either a blank space or copied the Hebrew Tetragrammaton (YHWH) over exactly as it was written in the Hebrew Tanakh. Only later translations of the Septuagint (100-200 AD), began to replace the Hebrew Tetragrammaton and fill the blank spaces with “Kurios”.
But the question I have is what exactly are you trying to say by pointing all this out?
The Corinthians would have thought exactly what Paul said to them: that in the heavens and in the earth there are many THEOS and many KURIOS but that TO US there was ONE THEOS, the Father and ONE KURIOS, Jesus Christ and that NOT MANY knew this fact.
To me ONE plus ONE always equals two – One Who is in control of ALL things and the other One Who is subservient to the One in control of ALL things.
Again, I ask: what exactly are you trying to prove with all of this?
The same question I have asked you above applies to your comments here as well.
But let’s look at your Mark verse in more detail and let’s quote a bit more of the context. Jesus, the Son of God, the Christ, was having a question and answer debate, if you will, with the Sadducees and Pharisees in the temple. I will use the Greek equivalent in place of “Lord”. I will also use Matthew’s version of the account instead of Mark’s. It says the same thing:
Matt 22:41-45 “While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, saying, "What do you think about the Christ? Whose Son is He?" They said to Him, "The Son of David." He said to them, "How then does David in the Spirit call Him `KURIOS,' saying: `The KURIOS said to my KURIOS, "Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool" '? "If David then calls Him `KURIOS,' how is He his Son?"
Verse 37 in Matthew and verse 29 in Mark, are direct quotes of:
Psa. 110:1 “A Psalm of David. The KURIOS said unto my KURIOS, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Now, who do you suppose is David’s “KURIOS”? And who is “THE KURIOS“ that is instructing David’s “KURIOS?
By the way, which language do you think Jesus was using when He spoke in these verses?
The Corinthians would have thought exactly what Paul said to them: that in the heavens and in the earth there are many THEOS and many KURIOS but that TO US there was ONE THEOS, the Father and ONE KURIOS, Jesus Christ and that NOT MANY knew this fact.
Yes, that is right, the Scriptures teach just that……that Jesus the Christ is known by His Father’s name YHWH, but He is NOT the Father because Jesus Christ, the KURIOS, came out from the FATHER and prays to a FATHER. And guess Who that Father is?
Jesus the Christ is also known as the MIGHTY GOD, but He is not the ALMIGHTY GOD, because He has a God Who is MIGHTIER then He.
So then Dutch, what is the conclusion of the matter? What is it that you want to convey to me (and others, I assume) concerning this topic? In your own words, who do you say the following are:
God the Father?
The Lord Jesus Christ?
The Son of the Living God?
Holy Spirit?
Also keep in mind that Paul was one of the foremost Hebrew scholars of his day. He was well educated and wealthy. He was well versed in the Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek languages. So that when he requested Timothy bring him the BOOKS (Grk” “biblion”) and especially the PARCHMENTS you can bet it included 30 years worth of HIS writings as well.
2 Tim 4:13 The cloak that I left at Troas with Carpus, bring when thou comest, and the BOOKS, especially the PARCHMENTS.
Of course Paul did not have to teach new doctrine to the Jews regarding the fact that to us “……there is one God, the Father and one Lord, Jesus Christ…..” They already were well acquainted with that revelation. But Paul DID have to teach the multi-god worshipping Greek converts at Corinth this important fact. To them it was new doctrine. That is why he said that not EVERYONE has that knowledge. The church at Corinth was composed of both Jews and Gentiles.
That is totally incorrect and just about every scholar will disagree with your conclusion here. ALL CHURCHES did not just speak ONLY Greek nor were the Scriptures they used only in Greek. Jesus Christ did not speak in Greek when He went into the Temple and the Synagogues in Jerusalem or Judea or in some of the other surrounding towns in order to teach or debate with the Pharisees. They probably would have thrown Him out or outright stoned them on the spot in some of those places.
And neither did the Apostles when they were doing the same thing in the same places. And neither was the Septuagint used exclusively in those places.
The languages spoken at that time were Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek and likely Latin as well. The Jews were and still are very zealous of their heritage and they would have used Hebrew to communicate with each other. In fact, the Gospel of Matthew was written in Hebrew.
On the other hand, the Jews of the Diaspora, living in Greek cities and other nations, would have been the ones more in need of a Greek version of the OT.
It is a well known fact that the oldest versions of the Septuagint did not show the word “kurios” in those places where it is seen now. Instead, the early Jewish translators left either a blank space or copied the Hebrew Tetragrammaton (YHWH) over exactly as it was written in the Hebrew Tanakh. Only later translations of the Septuagint (100-200 AD), began to replace the Hebrew Tetragrammaton and fill the blank spaces with “Kurios”.
But the question I have is what exactly are you trying to say by pointing all this out?
The Corinthians would have thought exactly what Paul said to them: that in the heavens and in the earth there are many THEOS and many KURIOS but that TO US there was ONE THEOS, the Father and ONE KURIOS, Jesus Christ and that NOT MANY knew this fact.
To me ONE plus ONE always equals two – One Who is in control of ALL things and the other One Who is subservient to the One in control of ALL things.
Again, I ask: what exactly are you trying to prove with all of this?
The same question I have asked you above applies to your comments here as well.
But let’s look at your Mark verse in more detail and let’s quote a bit more of the context. Jesus, the Son of God, the Christ, was having a question and answer debate, if you will, with the Sadducees and Pharisees in the temple. I will use the Greek equivalent in place of “Lord”. I will also use Matthew’s version of the account instead of Mark’s. It says the same thing:
Matt 22:41-45 “While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, saying, "What do you think about the Christ? Whose Son is He?" They said to Him, "The Son of David." He said to them, "How then does David in the Spirit call Him `KURIOS,' saying: `The KURIOS said to my KURIOS, "Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool" '? "If David then calls Him `KURIOS,' how is He his Son?"
Verse 37 in Matthew and verse 29 in Mark, are direct quotes of:
Psa. 110:1 “A Psalm of David. The KURIOS said unto my KURIOS, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Now, who do you suppose is David’s “KURIOS”? And who is “THE KURIOS“ that is instructing David’s “KURIOS?
By the way, which language do you think Jesus was using when He spoke in these verses?
The Corinthians would have thought exactly what Paul said to them: that in the heavens and in the earth there are many THEOS and many KURIOS but that TO US there was ONE THEOS, the Father and ONE KURIOS, Jesus Christ and that NOT MANY knew this fact.
Yes, that is right, the Scriptures teach just that……that Jesus the Christ is known by His Father’s name YHWH, but He is NOT the Father because Jesus Christ, the KURIOS, came out from the FATHER and prays to a FATHER. And guess Who that Father is?
Jesus the Christ is also known as the MIGHTY GOD, but He is not the ALMIGHTY GOD, because He has a God Who is MIGHTIER then He.
So then Dutch, what is the conclusion of the matter? What is it that you want to convey to me (and others, I assume) concerning this topic? In your own words, who do you say the following are:
God the Father?
The Lord Jesus Christ?
The Son of the Living God?
Holy Spirit?
P
Hello Dutch,
Well, if that is so, then I stand corrected.
When you say Jesus is God, are you saying that He is God the Father? That Jesus is the ALMIGHTY God?
But I did give an answer to that question in posts 72 and 76 but you just did not have the “eyes” to see it. You are so intent in examining the bark on the tree that you are unable to see the tree itself.
Let me try and do this in another way. Jesus Christ, the Lord IS:
It must be nice to be able to take a trip like that. Have an enjoyable a safe trip.
Well, if that is so, then I stand corrected.
When you say Jesus is God, are you saying that He is God the Father? That Jesus is the ALMIGHTY God?
But I did give an answer to that question in posts 72 and 76 but you just did not have the “eyes” to see it. You are so intent in examining the bark on the tree that you are unable to see the tree itself.
Let me try and do this in another way. Jesus Christ, the Lord IS:
- The VISIBLE IMAGE of the INVISIBLE SUPREME GOD, THE FATHER.
- The WORD (VOICE) of the SUPREME GOD, THE FATHER, who no one has heard.
- The FIRSTBORN of ALL CREATION.
- The BEGINNING of the creation of the SUPREME GOD, THE FATHER.
- The SON of the LIVING GOD, THE FATHER, Who is the SUPREME GOD.
- Called GOD because HIS FATHER IS THE SUPREME GOD Who is HIS GOD.
- Referred to as YHWH because HIS FATHER’S NAME IS YHWH and He REPRESENTS THE FATHER to HIS CREATURES.
It must be nice to be able to take a trip like that. Have an enjoyable a safe trip.
G
If the Scripture declared Jesus as God even once, that's all it would take. If the Scripture declared the Holy Spirit as God only once, that's all it would take. But in fact, Scripture does not make mention of the Deity of Christ once, nor does it make mention of the Deity of the Holy Spirit once. Rather, it makes mention of the Deity of Christ, though not limited to, at least sixteen times, and makes mention of the Deity of the Holy Spirit at least eleven times, that I know of.
Your argument that shows a distinction between Jesus Christ, and the Father is really no argument at all against the Trinity, as Trinitarians also believe the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct Persons. This does not hurt the Trinity in anyway, in fact, it supports it. Your argument seems to be against Sebellianism/Modalism, which is the belief that Jesus is the Father, that God is one in Person, and switches His mask from one moment to the next. One moment Jesus is the Father, then He changes His mask and becomes the Son, then changes His mask again, and then He’s the Spirit.
You’ve said, ‘In my opinion, there are considerably more verses of Scripture that totally disprove the tradition of a Trinity of Gods.’ First, allow me to say that you’re totally correct, Scripture is clear, there is only One God – Father, Son, and Holy Spirit – not three Gods, as Mormonism teaches. 'There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus' (Galatians 3:28). Likewise, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are One in the Godhead, One God.
Another way of looking at it is pictured in Mark 10:6-8, which states, ‘But from the beginning of creation, God MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE. FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH; so they are no longer two, but one flesh.’
That’s not to say that the husband and wife become one in person, as in numerical value. I wholly believe that what Christ said in reference to Genesis 2:24 (‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh’) can completely be applied to the Trinity, to the Godhead. The reason for that is because the term used in Genesis 2:24 for the word ‘one’ is the Hebrew word ‘echad,’ which in this context means ‘unified,' 'compound unity.' And though 'echad' does not always mean 'compound unity,' it at times does. With that said 'echad,' which is used as a compound unity in Genesis 2:24, is also used in Deuteronomy 6:4, which states, ‘Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!’ While in light of the whole of Scriptures, 'echad,' in terms of Deuteronomy 6:4 does seem to make reference to a compound unity when referring to Genesis 1:26, John 1:1, John 17:5, Hebrews 1:8-12. Second, one piece of Scripture does not make another void.
Scripture is emphatically clear that Jesus is God. This statement is made in John 1:1-14, Colossians 1:13-17, Hebrews 1:8-12, Isaiah 40:3 (c.f. Matthew 3:3), Isaiah 48:16, Revelation 1:8-18, Revelation 3:14, Revelation 22:12-16, Acts 20:24, John 8:56-59, John 10:29-33, Matthew 1:23, John 17:5, Genesis 1:26, Micah 5:2, John 20:28.
[FONT="]“[/FONT]A voice is calling, ‘Clear the way for the LORD in the wilderness; Make smooth in the desert a highway for our God.’” – Isaiah 40:3 (in reference to the prophecy of Jesus Christ by John the Baptist, Matthew 3:3)
In regards to the Holy Spirit, I’d like for you to turn in your Bible to Psalm 95. Psalm 95 says,What is said here is vitally important. We know from that v. 9-11 that David is quoting Yahweh (see v. 1, and v. 3). However, Hebrews 3:7-11 (NASB) states,Likewise, Acts 5:1-4 tells us, ‘But a man named Ananias, with his wife Sapphira, sold a piece of property, and kept back some of the price for himself, with his wife's full knowledge, and bringing a portion of it, he laid it at the apostles' feet. But Peter said, ‘Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back some of the price of the land? While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.’"
Refer also to Hebrews 9:14, Psalm 139, Job 33:4, 2 Corinthians 6:16, 1 Corinthians 3:16, Hebrews 10:15-17, Jeremiah 31:30-33.
If any man has ears to hear, let him hear. If any man has eyes to see, let him see. If man hasn't the ears to hear, nor the eyes to see, may God grant the understanding and knowledge of this truth unto him.
Your argument that shows a distinction between Jesus Christ, and the Father is really no argument at all against the Trinity, as Trinitarians also believe the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct Persons. This does not hurt the Trinity in anyway, in fact, it supports it. Your argument seems to be against Sebellianism/Modalism, which is the belief that Jesus is the Father, that God is one in Person, and switches His mask from one moment to the next. One moment Jesus is the Father, then He changes His mask and becomes the Son, then changes His mask again, and then He’s the Spirit.
You’ve said, ‘In my opinion, there are considerably more verses of Scripture that totally disprove the tradition of a Trinity of Gods.’ First, allow me to say that you’re totally correct, Scripture is clear, there is only One God – Father, Son, and Holy Spirit – not three Gods, as Mormonism teaches. 'There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus' (Galatians 3:28). Likewise, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are One in the Godhead, One God.
Another way of looking at it is pictured in Mark 10:6-8, which states, ‘But from the beginning of creation, God MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE. FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH; so they are no longer two, but one flesh.’
That’s not to say that the husband and wife become one in person, as in numerical value. I wholly believe that what Christ said in reference to Genesis 2:24 (‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh’) can completely be applied to the Trinity, to the Godhead. The reason for that is because the term used in Genesis 2:24 for the word ‘one’ is the Hebrew word ‘echad,’ which in this context means ‘unified,' 'compound unity.' And though 'echad' does not always mean 'compound unity,' it at times does. With that said 'echad,' which is used as a compound unity in Genesis 2:24, is also used in Deuteronomy 6:4, which states, ‘Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!’ While in light of the whole of Scriptures, 'echad,' in terms of Deuteronomy 6:4 does seem to make reference to a compound unity when referring to Genesis 1:26, John 1:1, John 17:5, Hebrews 1:8-12. Second, one piece of Scripture does not make another void.
Scripture is emphatically clear that Jesus is God. This statement is made in John 1:1-14, Colossians 1:13-17, Hebrews 1:8-12, Isaiah 40:3 (c.f. Matthew 3:3), Isaiah 48:16, Revelation 1:8-18, Revelation 3:14, Revelation 22:12-16, Acts 20:24, John 8:56-59, John 10:29-33, Matthew 1:23, John 17:5, Genesis 1:26, Micah 5:2, John 20:28.
[FONT="]“[/FONT]A voice is calling, ‘Clear the way for the LORD in the wilderness; Make smooth in the desert a highway for our God.’” – Isaiah 40:3 (in reference to the prophecy of Jesus Christ by John the Baptist, Matthew 3:3)
In regards to the Holy Spirit, I’d like for you to turn in your Bible to Psalm 95. Psalm 95 says,
O come, let us sing for joy to the LORD,
Let us shout joyfully to the rock of our salvation.
Let us come before His presence with thanksgiving,
Let us shout joyfully to Him with psalms.
For the LORD is a great God
And a great King above all gods,
In whose hand are the depths of the earth,
The peaks of the mountains are His also.
The sea is His, for it was He who made it,
And His hands formed the dry land.
Come, let us worship and bow down,
Let us kneel before the LORD our Maker.
For He is our God,
And we are the people of His pasture and the sheep of His hand
Today, if you would hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts, as at Meribah,
As in the day of Massah in the wilderness,
"When your fathers tested Me,
They tried Me, though they had seen My work.
"For forty years I loathed that generation,
And said they are a people who err in their heart,
And they do not know My ways.
"Therefore I swore in My anger,
Truly they shall not enter into My rest."
Let us shout joyfully to the rock of our salvation.
Let us come before His presence with thanksgiving,
Let us shout joyfully to Him with psalms.
For the LORD is a great God
And a great King above all gods,
In whose hand are the depths of the earth,
The peaks of the mountains are His also.
The sea is His, for it was He who made it,
And His hands formed the dry land.
Come, let us worship and bow down,
Let us kneel before the LORD our Maker.
For He is our God,
And we are the people of His pasture and the sheep of His hand
Today, if you would hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts, as at Meribah,
As in the day of Massah in the wilderness,
"When your fathers tested Me,
They tried Me, though they had seen My work.
"For forty years I loathed that generation,
And said they are a people who err in their heart,
And they do not know My ways.
"Therefore I swore in My anger,
Truly they shall not enter into My rest."
Therefore, just as the Holy Spirit says,
“TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,
DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME,
AS IN THE DAY OF TRIAL IN THE WILDERNESS,
WHERE YOUR FATHERS TRIED Me BY TESTING Me,
AND SAW MY WORKS FOR FORTY YEARS.
THEREFORE I WAS ANGRY WITH THIS GENERATION,
AND SAID, 'THEY ALWAYS GO ASTRAY IN THEIR HEART,
AND THEY DID NOT KNOW MY WAYS';
AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH,
'THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST.'"
“TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,
DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME,
AS IN THE DAY OF TRIAL IN THE WILDERNESS,
WHERE YOUR FATHERS TRIED Me BY TESTING Me,
AND SAW MY WORKS FOR FORTY YEARS.
THEREFORE I WAS ANGRY WITH THIS GENERATION,
AND SAID, 'THEY ALWAYS GO ASTRAY IN THEIR HEART,
AND THEY DID NOT KNOW MY WAYS';
AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH,
'THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST.'"
Refer also to Hebrews 9:14, Psalm 139, Job 33:4, 2 Corinthians 6:16, 1 Corinthians 3:16, Hebrews 10:15-17, Jeremiah 31:30-33.
If any man has ears to hear, let him hear. If any man has eyes to see, let him see. If man hasn't the ears to hear, nor the eyes to see, may God grant the understanding and knowledge of this truth unto him.
G
From a previous post of mine:
1.) Firstly, let us look at Colossians 1:15, which states, "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation."
According to Thayer's Greek Lexicon, the word 'firstborn' (Greek: prototokos) is an adjective. While in a literal sense, it can denote the first that comes from the womb, but frequently is an expression of supremacy, not chronological order.
Psalms 89:27, God said in regards to David, that He would appoint David to be His 'firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth.' Also in Jeremiah 31:9, where Ephraim is called the Lord's 'firstborn,' although, Manasseh was Ephraim's older brother, the 'firstborn' from the womb (Genesis 48:14). In this context, and as shown in Genesis 48:19, as well as Psalms 89:27, the term 'firstborn' is a title of superiority, of supremacy. The term 'firstborn' in Colossians 1:15 does not refer to an actual physical birth, but rather, refers to Christ's position of supremacy. Colossians 1:15 has absolutely nothing to do with Christ being 'created.' Colossians 1:18 goes on to Jesus is 'the beginning.'
2.) Secondly, let us examine Revelation 3:14-15, which states, “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this: ‘I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot.’”
‘Beginning’ here, translates from the Greek word ‘arche,’ meaning ‘the origin,’ ‘the active cause,’ ‘that by which anything begins to be,’ ‘leader,’ ‘the person or thing that commences,’ ‘magistracy,’ ‘rule.’ Revelation 3:14 does not in anyway teach that Christ was created. Ironically, it teaches that He is the ‘active cause,’ ‘the origin’ of all creation, that He is the Creator, the source of all things, the Beginning of all things. As Micah 5:2, a Messianic prophecy puts it, ‘But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Too little to be among the clans of Judah, From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel His goings forth are from long ago, From the days of ETERNITY.’
To further prove the Eternal existence of Christ, He said in John 8:58, "Truly, truly, I say unto you, before Abraham was born, I am." Exodus 3:14, "God said to Moses, 'I AM WHO I AM'; and He said, 'Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, I AM has sent me to you.'" The 'I am' denoted absolute eternal existence, it is a claim to be Yahweh of the Old Testament. The Jews understood the significance of this claim, and it's clear in their reaction, when they picked up stones against Christ. John 10:29-33 also make note of a similar incident, "The Jews answered Him, 'For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.'"
1.) Firstly, let us look at Colossians 1:15, which states, "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation."
According to Thayer's Greek Lexicon, the word 'firstborn' (Greek: prototokos) is an adjective. While in a literal sense, it can denote the first that comes from the womb, but frequently is an expression of supremacy, not chronological order.
Psalms 89:27, God said in regards to David, that He would appoint David to be His 'firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth.' Also in Jeremiah 31:9, where Ephraim is called the Lord's 'firstborn,' although, Manasseh was Ephraim's older brother, the 'firstborn' from the womb (Genesis 48:14). In this context, and as shown in Genesis 48:19, as well as Psalms 89:27, the term 'firstborn' is a title of superiority, of supremacy. The term 'firstborn' in Colossians 1:15 does not refer to an actual physical birth, but rather, refers to Christ's position of supremacy. Colossians 1:15 has absolutely nothing to do with Christ being 'created.' Colossians 1:18 goes on to Jesus is 'the beginning.'
2.) Secondly, let us examine Revelation 3:14-15, which states, “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this: ‘I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot.’”
‘Beginning’ here, translates from the Greek word ‘arche,’ meaning ‘the origin,’ ‘the active cause,’ ‘that by which anything begins to be,’ ‘leader,’ ‘the person or thing that commences,’ ‘magistracy,’ ‘rule.’ Revelation 3:14 does not in anyway teach that Christ was created. Ironically, it teaches that He is the ‘active cause,’ ‘the origin’ of all creation, that He is the Creator, the source of all things, the Beginning of all things. As Micah 5:2, a Messianic prophecy puts it, ‘But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Too little to be among the clans of Judah, From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel His goings forth are from long ago, From the days of ETERNITY.’
To further prove the Eternal existence of Christ, He said in John 8:58, "Truly, truly, I say unto you, before Abraham was born, I am." Exodus 3:14, "God said to Moses, 'I AM WHO I AM'; and He said, 'Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, I AM has sent me to you.'" The 'I am' denoted absolute eternal existence, it is a claim to be Yahweh of the Old Testament. The Jews understood the significance of this claim, and it's clear in their reaction, when they picked up stones against Christ. John 10:29-33 also make note of a similar incident, "The Jews answered Him, 'For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.'"
P
GraceBeUntoYou
I will quote certain relevant portions in your post where you said the following (note especially the bolded portions):
I’m confused. How many “Gods” and how many “distinct persons" did you say are in this Trinity of yours?
Let me see if I can follow your Trinitarian “logic”. You claim that:
God = There is one God, not three Gods.
Jesus = Is God - emphatically declared so at least sixteen times in the Scriptures.
Holy Spirit = Is God – declared so at least eleven times in the Scriptures. But then you say, the Holy Spirit is a “distinct Person” and not a God.
Persons = There are three, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit who are “distinct persons”.
The Father = Is a “distinct person” – not a God.
The Son = Is a “distinct person” – not a God.
So, based on your teaching about the Trinity, one can conclude that there is this One God, who is composed of three “distinct persons”: the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. But, in some way, the Holy Spirit is also God because the Scriptures have declared it so. Could it be that the One God is actually the Holy Spirit?
But wait. That can’t be because the Scriptures have also declared that Jesus is God too! So maybe, there are really three Gods after all. Or maybe, this One God morphs into God the Holy Spirit or Jesus the God, as the situation dictates.
Any way, at least the Father and the Son are “distinct persons” and not Gods (right?).
So, how did I do? Did I get it right about the Trinity?
You know, I got about half way through your post and had to stop to get some Pepto Bismol. This theology of the Trinity seems to be a theology of “mass confusion”!!
You are so all over the place with your explanations that you do not even realize the confusing things you say, not to mention how outside the Scriptures you have placed yourself.
And that is the problem with those who attempt to explain the Doctrine of a Trinity of Gods or “Persons”, as you prefer to call them. It is just not taught in the Scriptures and in order to claim that it is taught there, Trinitarians have to resort to inventing extra-Scriptural terms such as:
“Pre-existed, Co-equal, Eternal existence, One essence, Son from all eternity, One being, Who subsides, Three persons, Compound unity, Persons, Beings are not the same as Persons” etc.
They force meaning into words in the Scriptures that are not there or the context does not allow. They make incorrect inferences from the context in order to claim support for doctrine that is not supported in the Scriptures. There is no direct Scriptural support for a Trinity Doctrine.
As I have pointed out in previous posts, the Scriptures very clearly teach that there is only ONE GOD, THE FATHER and only ONE LORD, JESUS CHRIST and not three co-equal Gods or “three distinct persons” as you put it. By the way, are your “three distinct persons” co-equal?
In some ways, you almost sound like you are some sort of a “hybrid” Christian, so to speak, a cross between a Trinitarian and someone of the Oneness persuasion. Like having something along the lines of a “TRINI-ONENESS” doctrine, that no one is able to understand.
I am not going to reply your last two posts (98 and 99) until I understand what you are trying to say concerning the Trinity. After which I will respond to your post 50, point by point, if you wish, to show you how far outside of the Scriptures your theology has drifted.
But first, I need for you to clarify and define a few things for me. No need to post verses of Scripture for now. Just keep it as simple as you can. Please make it easy on me.
GOD – What does that word mean? Is it a name or a title? Besides the MOST HIGH GOD, how many other Gods are there? Can anybody be a God?
THE FATHER – Who is THE FATHER? Does He have a name? If so, what is His name? How did He come into existence? Whose Father is He? Is THE FATHER THE MOST HIGH GOD or just A GOD?
THE SON – Who is THE SON? Does He have a name? If so, what is His name? How did He come into existence? Whose Son is He? Is THE SON THE MOST HIGH GOD or just A GOD?
THE CHRIST - Who is THE CHRIST. What does the word CHRIST mean? Is THE CHRIST THE MOST HIGH GOD or just A GOD?
JESUS – Who is JESUS? What does the word JESUS mean? Is JESUS THE MOST HIGH GOD or just A GOD?
HOLY SPIRIT – Who or what is the HOLY SPIRIT? Is the HOLY SPIRIT a separate Person? Is the HOLY SPIRIT THE MOST HIGH GOD or just A GOD?
PERSON – Compared to the Deity, what is a PERSON? How does a PERSON become a “Deitized”?
CO-EQUAL = Are the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit co-equal?
Feel free to add any other related thoughts you may have.
I will quote certain relevant portions in your post where you said the following (note especially the bolded portions):
I’m confused. How many “Gods” and how many “distinct persons" did you say are in this Trinity of yours?
Let me see if I can follow your Trinitarian “logic”. You claim that:
God = There is one God, not three Gods.
Jesus = Is God - emphatically declared so at least sixteen times in the Scriptures.
Holy Spirit = Is God – declared so at least eleven times in the Scriptures. But then you say, the Holy Spirit is a “distinct Person” and not a God.
Persons = There are three, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit who are “distinct persons”.
The Father = Is a “distinct person” – not a God.
The Son = Is a “distinct person” – not a God.
So, based on your teaching about the Trinity, one can conclude that there is this One God, who is composed of three “distinct persons”: the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. But, in some way, the Holy Spirit is also God because the Scriptures have declared it so. Could it be that the One God is actually the Holy Spirit?
But wait. That can’t be because the Scriptures have also declared that Jesus is God too! So maybe, there are really three Gods after all. Or maybe, this One God morphs into God the Holy Spirit or Jesus the God, as the situation dictates.
Any way, at least the Father and the Son are “distinct persons” and not Gods (right?).
So, how did I do? Did I get it right about the Trinity?
You know, I got about half way through your post and had to stop to get some Pepto Bismol. This theology of the Trinity seems to be a theology of “mass confusion”!!
You are so all over the place with your explanations that you do not even realize the confusing things you say, not to mention how outside the Scriptures you have placed yourself.
And that is the problem with those who attempt to explain the Doctrine of a Trinity of Gods or “Persons”, as you prefer to call them. It is just not taught in the Scriptures and in order to claim that it is taught there, Trinitarians have to resort to inventing extra-Scriptural terms such as:
“Pre-existed, Co-equal, Eternal existence, One essence, Son from all eternity, One being, Who subsides, Three persons, Compound unity, Persons, Beings are not the same as Persons” etc.
They force meaning into words in the Scriptures that are not there or the context does not allow. They make incorrect inferences from the context in order to claim support for doctrine that is not supported in the Scriptures. There is no direct Scriptural support for a Trinity Doctrine.
As I have pointed out in previous posts, the Scriptures very clearly teach that there is only ONE GOD, THE FATHER and only ONE LORD, JESUS CHRIST and not three co-equal Gods or “three distinct persons” as you put it. By the way, are your “three distinct persons” co-equal?
In some ways, you almost sound like you are some sort of a “hybrid” Christian, so to speak, a cross between a Trinitarian and someone of the Oneness persuasion. Like having something along the lines of a “TRINI-ONENESS” doctrine, that no one is able to understand.
I am not going to reply your last two posts (98 and 99) until I understand what you are trying to say concerning the Trinity. After which I will respond to your post 50, point by point, if you wish, to show you how far outside of the Scriptures your theology has drifted.
But first, I need for you to clarify and define a few things for me. No need to post verses of Scripture for now. Just keep it as simple as you can. Please make it easy on me.
GOD – What does that word mean? Is it a name or a title? Besides the MOST HIGH GOD, how many other Gods are there? Can anybody be a God?
THE FATHER – Who is THE FATHER? Does He have a name? If so, what is His name? How did He come into existence? Whose Father is He? Is THE FATHER THE MOST HIGH GOD or just A GOD?
THE SON – Who is THE SON? Does He have a name? If so, what is His name? How did He come into existence? Whose Son is He? Is THE SON THE MOST HIGH GOD or just A GOD?
THE CHRIST - Who is THE CHRIST. What does the word CHRIST mean? Is THE CHRIST THE MOST HIGH GOD or just A GOD?
JESUS – Who is JESUS? What does the word JESUS mean? Is JESUS THE MOST HIGH GOD or just A GOD?
HOLY SPIRIT – Who or what is the HOLY SPIRIT? Is the HOLY SPIRIT a separate Person? Is the HOLY SPIRIT THE MOST HIGH GOD or just A GOD?
PERSON – Compared to the Deity, what is a PERSON? How does a PERSON become a “Deitized”?
CO-EQUAL = Are the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit co-equal?
Feel free to add any other related thoughts you may have.