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J
1Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
This distinction clearly reveals that there are three personalities that are God.
I would like you to refrain from using the word God to illuminate your points, instead
use their proper titles such as The Father, Jesus or The Son and The Holy Spirit.
When you do it this way your ideas are much clearer.
This distinction clearly reveals that there are three personalities that are God.
I would like you to refrain from using the word God to illuminate your points, instead
use their proper titles such as The Father, Jesus or The Son and The Holy Spirit.
When you do it this way your ideas are much clearer.
To people who believe in a trinity some things need to be explained on their part.
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace(Isaiah 9:6).
How can the Son be called The everlasting Father?
Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell(Proverbs 30:4).
Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they(Hebrews 1:4).
I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive(John 5:43).
How can the Father and the Son share the same name?
And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne(Revelation 4:2).
3And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: 4And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads(Revelation 22:3-4).
There is only one throne in heaven,not 2 thrones in heaven,and Jesus is the one on that throne,who is both God and the Lamb,the man Christ Jesus,Jesus who is God,in the glorified body of the man Christ Jesus.
How is it that there is one throne in heaven and Jesus sits on that throne?
Jesus is not on a throne next to the Father but there is only one throne in heaven and Jesus is on that throne.How then is Jesus on the Father's right hand?I know the answer.
But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting(Micah 5:2).
The Bible says when the Son comes He will have no beginning according to His deity,so He cannot be a created god.
The word Son means to be begotten and come after the Father or else the word Son has no meaning.
How can the Son be called the Son if He has no beginning when the term Son means to be begotten and come after the Father?
How can the Son be called the Son if He has no beginning?
If He were a created god then how can he have no beginning?
If He has no beginning then why is He called a Son?
And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you(John 16:23).
Jesus told His disciples when He ascends to heaven for them not to ask Him anything but only ask the Father.
12Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
13And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it(John 14:12-14).
Jesus told His disciples that when He ascends to heaven to ask Him and He will do it.
If Jesus said when He ascends to heaven not to ask Him anything but only ask the Father,then why did He say when He ascends to heaven to ask Him and He will do it?I know the answer.
The plain truth is that Jesus is our Father,and that is why the Old Testament says He shall be called the everlasting Father,shall have no beginning,and the Father and Son share the same name which the Son inherited the name from the Father,and came in His Father's name which is Jesus.
Jesus is God manifest in the flesh,so it is the name of the Father and Son,the man Christ Jesus,and that is why there is only one throne in heaven and one who sits on it who is Jesus.Jesus is the Father and the Son inherited that name from the Father.
The Holy Spirit comes in the name of Jesus for Jesus is the Holy Spirit.The Father is the Holy Spirit and the Son is the man Christ Jesus,not a created god and not a second person of a trinity.
7If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. 11Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake(John 14:7-14).
Here the Son,the man Christ Jesus,is explaining that He is the Father manifest in flesh.
16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. 18I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you(John 14:16-18).
Here Jesus is explaining that He is the Holy Spirit manifest in flesh.
God is an omnipresent Spirit and is the same through His omnipresent Spirit with no distiction of persons and the Spirit that is in Christ is still connected to the omnipresent Spirit of God with no distinction of persons.
Father,Son and Holy Spirit are not 3 pesonalities in one God but the 3 ways the one true God with no distinction of persons has made Himself known to His saints,relationships,that He designates by titles.
Father-the saints parent.
Son-the visible relationship the Father has with the saints.The only way the saints can see the invisible God for God the Father and the Lamb,the man Christ Jesus,God the Father in the glorified body of the man Christ Jesus,share the same throne.
Holy Spirit-God's invisible relationship with the saints.
There are not 3 personalities in one God but the one true God who is an omnipresent Spirit created all things and is the parent of the saints,manifest some of His Spirit in flesh,which means He gave all His attributes to the Son,the man Chrits Jesus,and dwells in the hearts of the saints by His Spirit.
The Bible says that God is in all and through all,and the Spirit that is in Christ is connected to the omnipresent Spirit of God with no distinction of persons.
It is one God with no distinction of persons that did everything.
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him(1 Corinthians 8:6).
There is only one God the Father,and one visible manifestation of God the Father,the Lord Jesus Christ.
Matt
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace(Isaiah 9:6).
How can the Son be called The everlasting Father?
Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell(Proverbs 30:4).
Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they(Hebrews 1:4).
I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive(John 5:43).
How can the Father and the Son share the same name?
And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne(Revelation 4:2).
3And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: 4And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads(Revelation 22:3-4).
There is only one throne in heaven,not 2 thrones in heaven,and Jesus is the one on that throne,who is both God and the Lamb,the man Christ Jesus,Jesus who is God,in the glorified body of the man Christ Jesus.
How is it that there is one throne in heaven and Jesus sits on that throne?
Jesus is not on a throne next to the Father but there is only one throne in heaven and Jesus is on that throne.How then is Jesus on the Father's right hand?I know the answer.
But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting(Micah 5:2).
The Bible says when the Son comes He will have no beginning according to His deity,so He cannot be a created god.
The word Son means to be begotten and come after the Father or else the word Son has no meaning.
How can the Son be called the Son if He has no beginning when the term Son means to be begotten and come after the Father?
How can the Son be called the Son if He has no beginning?
If He were a created god then how can he have no beginning?
If He has no beginning then why is He called a Son?
And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you(John 16:23).
Jesus told His disciples when He ascends to heaven for them not to ask Him anything but only ask the Father.
12Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
13And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it(John 14:12-14).
Jesus told His disciples that when He ascends to heaven to ask Him and He will do it.
If Jesus said when He ascends to heaven not to ask Him anything but only ask the Father,then why did He say when He ascends to heaven to ask Him and He will do it?I know the answer.
The plain truth is that Jesus is our Father,and that is why the Old Testament says He shall be called the everlasting Father,shall have no beginning,and the Father and Son share the same name which the Son inherited the name from the Father,and came in His Father's name which is Jesus.
Jesus is God manifest in the flesh,so it is the name of the Father and Son,the man Christ Jesus,and that is why there is only one throne in heaven and one who sits on it who is Jesus.Jesus is the Father and the Son inherited that name from the Father.
The Holy Spirit comes in the name of Jesus for Jesus is the Holy Spirit.The Father is the Holy Spirit and the Son is the man Christ Jesus,not a created god and not a second person of a trinity.
7If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. 11Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake(John 14:7-14).
Here the Son,the man Christ Jesus,is explaining that He is the Father manifest in flesh.
16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. 18I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you(John 14:16-18).
Here Jesus is explaining that He is the Holy Spirit manifest in flesh.
God is an omnipresent Spirit and is the same through His omnipresent Spirit with no distiction of persons and the Spirit that is in Christ is still connected to the omnipresent Spirit of God with no distinction of persons.
Father,Son and Holy Spirit are not 3 pesonalities in one God but the 3 ways the one true God with no distinction of persons has made Himself known to His saints,relationships,that He designates by titles.
Father-the saints parent.
Son-the visible relationship the Father has with the saints.The only way the saints can see the invisible God for God the Father and the Lamb,the man Christ Jesus,God the Father in the glorified body of the man Christ Jesus,share the same throne.
Holy Spirit-God's invisible relationship with the saints.
There are not 3 personalities in one God but the one true God who is an omnipresent Spirit created all things and is the parent of the saints,manifest some of His Spirit in flesh,which means He gave all His attributes to the Son,the man Chrits Jesus,and dwells in the hearts of the saints by His Spirit.
The Bible says that God is in all and through all,and the Spirit that is in Christ is connected to the omnipresent Spirit of God with no distinction of persons.
It is one God with no distinction of persons that did everything.
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him(1 Corinthians 8:6).
There is only one God the Father,and one visible manifestation of God the Father,the Lord Jesus Christ.
Matt
M
James,
Once again, I would be careful using 1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word,
and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. as a proof text of the trinity because most scholars consider it an addition done a few hundred years ago.
In fact many of the translations like NIV do not include it. The fact that you keep using it only weakens any other arguments you might use.
The fact that so many posts state that you do not have to read the "Old Testament Scriptures" anymore is astounding to me. Virtually the entire New Testament is a repeat of the TaNaK (Old) and no one quotes from it more than Paul. If one never reads the TaNaK, how can one understand when Paul says the Just shall live by Faith (Hab 2:4) or any of the dozens of quotes in the book of Romans alone?
To try to understand the New Testament which is written by first century Jews without understanding first century Judaism is a waste of time. And one cannot understand first century Judaism, unless one understands the scriptures by which their entire lifestyles were based.
I encourage everyone to study the Old Testament with someone who loves it too, not from some modern day "bible teacher" who has to hold his nose while he reads from Leviticus. And by the way, Leviticus which is the last book most Christians will read, was the first book studied by a first century Jewish boy!
Jeff
Once again, I would be careful using 1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word,
and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. as a proof text of the trinity because most scholars consider it an addition done a few hundred years ago.
In fact many of the translations like NIV do not include it. The fact that you keep using it only weakens any other arguments you might use.
The fact that so many posts state that you do not have to read the "Old Testament Scriptures" anymore is astounding to me. Virtually the entire New Testament is a repeat of the TaNaK (Old) and no one quotes from it more than Paul. If one never reads the TaNaK, how can one understand when Paul says the Just shall live by Faith (Hab 2:4) or any of the dozens of quotes in the book of Romans alone?
To try to understand the New Testament which is written by first century Jews without understanding first century Judaism is a waste of time. And one cannot understand first century Judaism, unless one understands the scriptures by which their entire lifestyles were based.
I encourage everyone to study the Old Testament with someone who loves it too, not from some modern day "bible teacher" who has to hold his nose while he reads from Leviticus. And by the way, Leviticus which is the last book most Christians will read, was the first book studied by a first century Jewish boy!
Jeff
J
Thank you Jeff,
Firstly I do not state in this post or personally believe we should not read the OT.
I'm pretty sure I've read 90% of it, lots of it more than once.
Still digging around it looking for areas I missed. And I do not find it boring or tedious,
with the few tedious exceptions.
I study the KJV as I have for over 30 years of bible study. Recently I started using esword,
a bible program I can call up and compare very many versions.
The quote I referred to is a direct copy/paste from the KJV. As all my bible quotes are.
There are probably lots of scholars who are perpetually trying to disprove or remove any part of the bible
at any given time.
This bible given to us is the Word of God.
Also I am currently studying this issue very carefully, there are many issues in the bible that
people don't understand, the triunity of God (meaning all three personalities) seems to be
fairly straightforward, there is more to support this than against it.
I challenge anyone to find a KJV verse proving against the triunity that I cannot explain.
And I'm not meaning to sound like a fathead.
I want to know.
Firstly I do not state in this post or personally believe we should not read the OT.
I'm pretty sure I've read 90% of it, lots of it more than once.
Still digging around it looking for areas I missed. And I do not find it boring or tedious,
with the few tedious exceptions.
I study the KJV as I have for over 30 years of bible study. Recently I started using esword,
a bible program I can call up and compare very many versions.
The quote I referred to is a direct copy/paste from the KJV. As all my bible quotes are.
There are probably lots of scholars who are perpetually trying to disprove or remove any part of the bible
at any given time.
This bible given to us is the Word of God.
Also I am currently studying this issue very carefully, there are many issues in the bible that
people don't understand, the triunity of God (meaning all three personalities) seems to be
fairly straightforward, there is more to support this than against it.
I challenge anyone to find a KJV verse proving against the triunity that I cannot explain.
And I'm not meaning to sound like a fathead.
I want to know.
Last edited:
M
Hi James,
I can see you are really searching for the truth and I in no way meant to challenge that. I applaud your use of esword as it is a great program and mine is open as I type this. I hope you are using the KJV+ with Strong's numbers. I also hope you have taken the time to download some of the other translations even if they cost you. I use the KJV primarily because of the availability of Strongs and because it is pretty consistant with its word choice. This way if it says common, I can usually assume that it came from the Greek word koinos etc. But be aware that it is not without its issues and reading parallel verses can sometimes point this out.
For the first thirty years as a Christian, 90%+ of my bible reading came from the New Testament. When I made the decision 10 years ago to spend more time reading the Old Testament, I discovered that my understanding of some New Testament scriptures changed. God gave us the books of the bible in a certaing order. Why do most people start at the back? They would never read any other book that way.
Jeff
I can see you are really searching for the truth and I in no way meant to challenge that. I applaud your use of esword as it is a great program and mine is open as I type this. I hope you are using the KJV+ with Strong's numbers. I also hope you have taken the time to download some of the other translations even if they cost you. I use the KJV primarily because of the availability of Strongs and because it is pretty consistant with its word choice. This way if it says common, I can usually assume that it came from the Greek word koinos etc. But be aware that it is not without its issues and reading parallel verses can sometimes point this out.
For the first thirty years as a Christian, 90%+ of my bible reading came from the New Testament. When I made the decision 10 years ago to spend more time reading the Old Testament, I discovered that my understanding of some New Testament scriptures changed. God gave us the books of the bible in a certaing order. Why do most people start at the back? They would never read any other book that way.
Jeff
M
Just like the sh'ma where the Hebrew word for one is echad, which means united.
Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
H259
אחד
'echâd
ekh-awd'
A numeral from H258; properly united, that is, one; or (as an ordinal) first: - a, alike, alone, altogether, and, any (-thing), apiece, a certain [dai-] ly, each (one), + eleven, every, few, first, + highway, a man, once, one, only, other, some, together.
It was clearly this context when Jesus said:
Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.
Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
H259
אחד
'echâd
ekh-awd'
A numeral from H258; properly united, that is, one; or (as an ordinal) first: - a, alike, alone, altogether, and, any (-thing), apiece, a certain [dai-] ly, each (one), + eleven, every, few, first, + highway, a man, once, one, only, other, some, together.
It was clearly this context when Jesus said:
Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.
P
Greetings James Stephen,
I think I see your point. It could make things somewhat less confusing to someone who many not have read my earlier post on this subject. At those times when I may not specifically be referring to a verse of Scripture, how about if I used the word God as the Apostle Paul used it in:
1Cor. 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
And in:
1Thess 1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Now, I will have to say this, I will not be able to use the word God with Holy Ghost, such as “God the Holy Ghost” because it is not in the Scriptures and because I believe that neither is such a concept taught in them. The same, of course, would apply to the terms: “Trinity of Gods” or “God the Trinity”, for the same reason.
Also, if I may, I would like to clarify a few things that you mentioned in this post of yours. “Jesus” is not a title, it is a name. The other three references, The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit are titles as you said and that also includes the word “God”.
The other thing is your use of 1John 5:7. As several others have pointed out, that verse stands on very, very shaky ground indeed. When I did my studies on this subject some years ago, I learned the following:
Of the 5000 plus MSS that the bible translations have been based on, only a 100 or so have that verse in them and most of those have it shown on the margin of those MSS, as if some copyist had added them in.
Also, most of those 100 or so MSS are dated no earlier that 1500 AD. A handful may go back as far as 200-300 AD but they are of doubtful origin. None of the MSS that are earlier than 200-300 AD has them in them.
Most scholars and many theologians know this. That is why the later translations of the Scriptures omit 1John 5:7 entirely or add a note qualifying it. Some of those translations are: NIV, NAS, RSV, ASV, DBY, BBE, WEY and others.
In my opinion, there are considerably more verses of Scripture that totally disprove the tradition of a Trinity of Gods.
Just Pondering along........
S
I agree, and they seem to refuse to qualify some scriptures, and base their theories in a select few. I think if you have a belief you should be able to qualify it against every scripture in the Bible, with a reasonable explanation for apparent discrepancies.
As someone who doesn't yet know what the truth of the Godhead is, I have asked in earnest for explanations of some scriptures and they are simply overlooked or they respond with quotations of alternate scriptures as an answer. That doesn't appease me when I am seeking the truth. And by truth I mean something that stands true without neglecting a great portion of scripture.
As someone who doesn't yet know what the truth of the Godhead is, I have asked in earnest for explanations of some scriptures and they are simply overlooked or they respond with quotations of alternate scriptures as an answer. That doesn't appease me when I am seeking the truth. And by truth I mean something that stands true without neglecting a great portion of scripture.
P
Well now, there is nothing like a good old challenge to get them old brain synapses sparking again.
But first a little “Scriptural house keeping” needs to be done. I have this bad “addiction” about using correct Scriptural terms and the word “triunity is not a Scriptural term. Now that we have cleaned that up, these are some Verses of Scripture that prove against a triune diety……….
A. By way of omission:
1Cor. 8:6-7 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge………..
John 16:27-28 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God. I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
See also Gal. 1:3; Eph. 6:23; 2Tim. 1:2; 1Peter 1:3; 2John 3;
B. By way of a parallel:
1Cor 11:3, 8-9 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God……….For a man indeed ought not to have his head veiled, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man. For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man: for neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.
Notice how perfectly these verses of Scripture dovetail with the 1Cor. 8:6 and John 16:27-28 verses. All things have COME OUT FROM GOD THE FATHER. The Father is the SOURCE of everything that exists.
Jesus Christ CAME OUT FROM GOD, He CAME FORTH FROM THE FATHER. He is the FIRSTBORN of all creation, the BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD. And then THROUGH the Lord Jesus Christ, all that exists was brought forth. Jesus Christ is the CHANNEL through Whom God the Father brought forth all of creation.
And so the HEAD of Christ is God.
Now notice the beautiful parallel that exists between the man and the woman. Adam was formed from the hand of the Lord Jesus Christ.
And so the HEAD of man is the Lord Jesus Christ.
In his relationship to the human race, Adam is the FATHER of humanity. And just as the Lord Jesus Christ came out from God the Father, the woman CAME OUT FROM ADAM. Adam is the SOURCE from which humanity sprang and continues to do so.
And then THROUGH the woman has come all of humanity and is continuing to do so. The woman is the CHANNEL through whom MAN (Adam) brings forth the human race.
Therefore, the HEAD of the woman is man (Adam).
C. By way of directly stating it:
Heb 1:1-10 (specially verses 8 and 9) “But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
D. By way of a warning:
1John 2:21-24 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth. Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: but he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
The Holy Spirit is nowhere mentioned in these verses. If such an important and co-equal God existed in a Trinity, then it should have definitely been brought forth before us just as God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ have been forth to us.
D
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Sometimes it is difficult to understand what the Bible teach about Jesus..[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]What does the Bible teach us about YHWH and Jesus?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]I think the clue is in the OT.. because we have to understand that nobody got the NT when Jesus lived.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Jesus said in Lc 24:44 [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]And He said unto them, "These are the words which I spoke unto you while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and in the Prophets and in the Psalms concerning Me."[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Even whe have to understand what is written in Ex 34:14[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]14 For you shall worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]So, it is clear.. We have to worship one God. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Gen 3:15 is written He is the seed that will crush the head of the snake. We can read this part from Gal 4:4 where is written that Jesus is born out of a woman to redeem us.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Dt 18:15 write: Jesus is a prophet like Moses, and at that Person we have to listen[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Isaiah 6:1 Jesus is YHWH sitting on His throne, we know this, because it is written in [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]John 12:38-41 41 These things said Isaiah when he saw His glory and spoke of Him. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Isaiah 7:14 Jesus title is Immanuel (God with us)[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]In John 1:14 we can see that the Word (who is God, vs 1) became Flesh[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]In Phil 2:6 we can read that God became a human.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Isaiah 9:6 or unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given; and the government shall be upon His shoulder. And His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The Mighty God, The Everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Isaiah 10:21 is written the remnant of Israel will return to the Mighty God. (Or actually they will accept Jesus)[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Jeremiah 32:18 The name of the Mighty God is.. LORD of Host.. (or like we can see here YHWH him self)[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]In Mich 2:10 We can read there is only one Father.. who created us.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]In Mich 5;2 we can read that YHWH said.. Jesus will come out of ME.., and to prove that.. YHWH said, whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]He will rule over Israel..[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]In 5:3 YHWH said: Jesus will come out of a woman.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]So actually YHWH said here: I will became flesh, and a human...[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif](Like is written in John 1;14 and Phil 2:6)[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Back to Isaiah:[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Isaiah said in 11:1: Jesus is coming too from the tribe of Isaï (the father of David). And on Him the Spirit of the Lord will come.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]In Jeremiah 23:5 We can read that YHWH will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and his name is YHWH TSIDQUENU, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]In Jeremiah we can read that the YHWH Tsidquenu is the title for Jesus. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]In Isaiah 53 we can read, that Jesus became for our sin. And He carried the punishment.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]In Ps 30:3 we can read Jesus is raised out of the death, and in Ps 118:17-18 we can read that Jesus will live. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]In Hosea 6:2 is written that Jesus will raise from the death on the 3e day.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]In Ps 24:1-10 is there a question: Who shall ascend onto the hill of the LORD?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]We can read that the answer is: only the one who got clean hands and a pure hart.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]He shall receive the blessing from the LORD, and righteousness from the God of his salvation.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]In vs 7 we can read that the King of Glory wanted to come in. And the answer who that King is: The LORD of hosts, He is the King of glory.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]And we know, this is Jesus.. He is the King...[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]read 1Tim 1:16-17[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]16 However, for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show forth all long-suffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Paul isn't talking about the Father here.. No.. He gave Jesus all the honer. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif](remember Ex 34:14) When you read this good.. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]In ps 68:18 is written: You have ascended on high, you have led captivity captive[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]We can read this too in Ef 4:8 Why he said, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts to men.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]When we read about the text in the writting of Efeze we know Paul is written about Jesus..[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]But in Ps 68:18 the Person who is ascended on high is YHWH.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Thou hast ascended on high, Thou hast led captivity captive; Thou hast received gifts for men, yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]When Jesus said: Look in the Scripture what is written about me.. They could know that Jesus was God, and became a human (John 1:14, Phil 2:6)[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The Jews in Berea had only the OT, and they knew from the promises.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]When they read[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Zach 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and of supplication; and they shall look upon Me whom they have pierced[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]And when we study this vers: We can see that YHWH is talking here. And once the Jews know that they pierce their own God. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]And than we know this:[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]4 And his feet shall stand in that day on the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall split in the middle thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]5 And you shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach to Azal: yes, you shall flee, like as you fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with you.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]We know that this part is going about Jesus who will come back.. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]We can read this in the book of Acts that Jesus will return, with His feet on the Mt Olive. We know [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]too that He will come with His saints[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Read 1 Tess 4 [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]15 For this we say unto you by the Word of the Lord: that we who are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who are asleep.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first;[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]17 then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so shall we ever be with the Lord.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The only conclussion that we can made is: Seeing from the OT, confirm in the NT Jesus is YHWH.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]These scriptures are based what we can see what is written in the OT.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The next time (it can be about 2 weeks, if my plane leave) I will write about more evidence..[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]What does the Bible teach us about YHWH and Jesus?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]I think the clue is in the OT.. because we have to understand that nobody got the NT when Jesus lived.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Jesus said in Lc 24:44 [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]And He said unto them, "These are the words which I spoke unto you while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and in the Prophets and in the Psalms concerning Me."[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Even whe have to understand what is written in Ex 34:14[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]14 For you shall worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]So, it is clear.. We have to worship one God. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Gen 3:15 is written He is the seed that will crush the head of the snake. We can read this part from Gal 4:4 where is written that Jesus is born out of a woman to redeem us.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Dt 18:15 write: Jesus is a prophet like Moses, and at that Person we have to listen[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Isaiah 6:1 Jesus is YHWH sitting on His throne, we know this, because it is written in [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]John 12:38-41 41 These things said Isaiah when he saw His glory and spoke of Him. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Isaiah 7:14 Jesus title is Immanuel (God with us)[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]In John 1:14 we can see that the Word (who is God, vs 1) became Flesh[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]In Phil 2:6 we can read that God became a human.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Isaiah 9:6 or unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given; and the government shall be upon His shoulder. And His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The Mighty God, The Everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Isaiah 10:21 is written the remnant of Israel will return to the Mighty God. (Or actually they will accept Jesus)[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Jeremiah 32:18 The name of the Mighty God is.. LORD of Host.. (or like we can see here YHWH him self)[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]In Mich 2:10 We can read there is only one Father.. who created us.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]In Mich 5;2 we can read that YHWH said.. Jesus will come out of ME.., and to prove that.. YHWH said, whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]He will rule over Israel..[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]In 5:3 YHWH said: Jesus will come out of a woman.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]So actually YHWH said here: I will became flesh, and a human...[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif](Like is written in John 1;14 and Phil 2:6)[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Back to Isaiah:[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Isaiah said in 11:1: Jesus is coming too from the tribe of Isaï (the father of David). And on Him the Spirit of the Lord will come.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]In Jeremiah 23:5 We can read that YHWH will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and his name is YHWH TSIDQUENU, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]In Jeremiah we can read that the YHWH Tsidquenu is the title for Jesus. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]In Isaiah 53 we can read, that Jesus became for our sin. And He carried the punishment.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]In Ps 30:3 we can read Jesus is raised out of the death, and in Ps 118:17-18 we can read that Jesus will live. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]In Hosea 6:2 is written that Jesus will raise from the death on the 3e day.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]In Ps 24:1-10 is there a question: Who shall ascend onto the hill of the LORD?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]We can read that the answer is: only the one who got clean hands and a pure hart.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]He shall receive the blessing from the LORD, and righteousness from the God of his salvation.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]In vs 7 we can read that the King of Glory wanted to come in. And the answer who that King is: The LORD of hosts, He is the King of glory.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]And we know, this is Jesus.. He is the King...[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]read 1Tim 1:16-17[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]16 However, for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show forth all long-suffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Paul isn't talking about the Father here.. No.. He gave Jesus all the honer. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif](remember Ex 34:14) When you read this good.. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]In ps 68:18 is written: You have ascended on high, you have led captivity captive[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]We can read this too in Ef 4:8 Why he said, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts to men.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]When we read about the text in the writting of Efeze we know Paul is written about Jesus..[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]But in Ps 68:18 the Person who is ascended on high is YHWH.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Thou hast ascended on high, Thou hast led captivity captive; Thou hast received gifts for men, yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]When Jesus said: Look in the Scripture what is written about me.. They could know that Jesus was God, and became a human (John 1:14, Phil 2:6)[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The Jews in Berea had only the OT, and they knew from the promises.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]When they read[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Zach 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and of supplication; and they shall look upon Me whom they have pierced[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]And when we study this vers: We can see that YHWH is talking here. And once the Jews know that they pierce their own God. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]And than we know this:[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]4 And his feet shall stand in that day on the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall split in the middle thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]5 And you shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach to Azal: yes, you shall flee, like as you fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with you.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]We know that this part is going about Jesus who will come back.. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]We can read this in the book of Acts that Jesus will return, with His feet on the Mt Olive. We know [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]too that He will come with His saints[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Read 1 Tess 4 [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]15 For this we say unto you by the Word of the Lord: that we who are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who are asleep.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first;[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]17 then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so shall we ever be with the Lord.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The only conclussion that we can made is: Seeing from the OT, confirm in the NT Jesus is YHWH.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]These scriptures are based what we can see what is written in the OT.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The next time (it can be about 2 weeks, if my plane leave) I will write about more evidence..[/FONT]
D
Ponder write
To understand this: we have to look this how it is meant:
First the word head: The Greekword here is Kephal.. what mean head, but mean too spring of Live too.
An other when the man is the head, it means not: The man is more as the woman.
When we looked at Genesis 2:13 when God said:It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper meet for him.
He didn't mean. The woman is inferior to the man. No, actually before the sin fall they where totally equal at each other. In Hebrew the word for helper is ezer: And we have to understand that the same word is used for God.
Psalms 30:10 Hear, O LORD, and have mercy on me: LORD, be you my helper.
Psalm 33:20Our soul waits for the LORD: he is our help and our shield
Psalms 54:4 Behold, God is my helper: the Lord is with them that uphold my soul.
Psalm 70:55 But I am poor and needy; make haste unto me, O God. Thou art my help and my deliverer; O LORD, make no tarrying
Psalm 115:9 O Israel, trust thou in the LORD: He is their help and their shield.
The same word Ezer or the root is used for the our God. And in this way we have to see this. The helper is in this case God. And He is more as us.. The woman is meaning as a helper for the man. Not his slave.. or employee.
In the paradise the female was called Woman, but when they kicked out of the Paradise.. the Woman got an other name: Eve
And Adam called his wife’s name Eve; because she was the mother of all living
Here is written: She is the mother of all living.. and why isn't called Adam the father of all living? When we look at the word Eve that mean actual Live giver.
If you said: Eve is the Channel.. and through the Adam became the human race.. well. You have to read this:
Luc 1:33 and He shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of His Kingdom there shall be no end."
34 Then said Mary unto the angel, "How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?"
35 And the angel answered and said unto her, "The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee. Therefore also that Holy Being who shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
Why is Jesus called the Son of God.. because there was no man intervention. So in your theory.. you said.. God out God. Maria was the Channel from God.
Interesting is when we read the history of Eve, we can read she came out of Adam..
Philo from Alexandrie (Jew and not a Christian who lived in the time of John) He gave a description of
the(Word) Logos like this: When we understand this.. Philo said actually.. out of Him self. And read now John 1:1-14 and Phil 2:6 again.. So we can understand what and who Jesus is..
To understand this: we have to look this how it is meant:
First the word head: The Greekword here is Kephal.. what mean head, but mean too spring of Live too.
An other when the man is the head, it means not: The man is more as the woman.
When we looked at Genesis 2:13 when God said:It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper meet for him.
He didn't mean. The woman is inferior to the man. No, actually before the sin fall they where totally equal at each other. In Hebrew the word for helper is ezer: And we have to understand that the same word is used for God.
Psalms 30:10 Hear, O LORD, and have mercy on me: LORD, be you my helper.
Psalm 33:20Our soul waits for the LORD: he is our help and our shield
Psalms 54:4 Behold, God is my helper: the Lord is with them that uphold my soul.
Psalm 70:55 But I am poor and needy; make haste unto me, O God. Thou art my help and my deliverer; O LORD, make no tarrying
Psalm 115:9 O Israel, trust thou in the LORD: He is their help and their shield.
The same word Ezer or the root is used for the our God. And in this way we have to see this. The helper is in this case God. And He is more as us.. The woman is meaning as a helper for the man. Not his slave.. or employee.
In the paradise the female was called Woman, but when they kicked out of the Paradise.. the Woman got an other name: Eve
And Adam called his wife’s name Eve; because she was the mother of all living
Here is written: She is the mother of all living.. and why isn't called Adam the father of all living? When we look at the word Eve that mean actual Live giver.
If you said: Eve is the Channel.. and through the Adam became the human race.. well. You have to read this:
Luc 1:33 and He shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of His Kingdom there shall be no end."
34 Then said Mary unto the angel, "How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?"
35 And the angel answered and said unto her, "The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee. Therefore also that Holy Being who shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
Why is Jesus called the Son of God.. because there was no man intervention. So in your theory.. you said.. God out God. Maria was the Channel from God.
Interesting is when we read the history of Eve, we can read she came out of Adam..
Philo from Alexandrie (Jew and not a Christian who lived in the time of John) He gave a description of
the(Word) Logos like this: When we understand this.. Philo said actually.. out of Him self. And read now John 1:1-14 and Phil 2:6 again.. So we can understand what and who Jesus is..
P
Hello Dutch,
After reading through your post several times, I feel you may not have understood what I was trying to convey with the 1COR. verses. But then again I could be wrong, since I was having a hard time following what you were trying to say.
The point I was trying to make from the Scriptures is that the relationship that exists between GOD THE FATHER and the LORD JESUS CHRIST, as revealed in 1COR 8:6, is very much like the relationship that exists between a MAN and a WOMAN as revealed in 1COR. 11:8-12 without a third co-equal party being involved.
All of this is neatly summarized in 1COR. 11:3.
Before I go on, I need to make a quick……..
DISCALIMER: Ladies, I want you all to know that I am not a MCP (that’s “Male Chauvinist Pig” for those of you who may be acronymically challenged). All I will be doing is quoting Scripture. Keep that in mind as you read what follows.
When I see someone use words like “this is how it is MEANT” and “it MEANS not”, I immediately turn on my “Anti-Tradition” Scripture radar, because they may be getting ready to “translate” the TRUTH to an untruth in order to support a TRADITION they have misplaced their faith in.
The Greek word “KEPHALE” does not have the meaning that you are trying to apply to the verses in question. In those verses it has the meaning of “authority” or “having authority over” or “be in subjection to” someone or something. For example:
Col 1:18 And HE IS THE HEAD OF THE BODY, THE CHURCH: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Eph. 5:23-24 For THE HUSBAND IS THE HEAD OF THE WIFE, even as CHRIST IS THE HEAD OF THE CHURCH: and he is the saviour of the body. THEREFORE AS THE CHURCH IS SUBJECT UNTO CHRIST, SO LET THE WIVES BE TO THEIR OWN HUSBANDS IN EVERYTHING.
Therefore, to say “when the man is the head, it means not: The man is more as the woman” is to be completely outside of the Scriptures.
Would you apply the same “interpretation” to: “…….the HEAD of man is Christ….” (1cor. 11:3) and say that it does not mean that Jesus Christ is more than mere man!?
Let’s see what the Scriptures really say about all that:
1Tim. 2:5-15 (specifically verses 13-15) “For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.”
Gen. 2:21-22 And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall on Adam, and he slept; and He took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh in its place. Then the rib which the Lord God had taken from man He made into a woman, and He brought her to the man.
Gen. 3:16-17 To the woman he said, "I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you." To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, `You must not eat of it,' "Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat of it all the days of your life.”
Notice what is pointed out in these verses (ladies, don’t forget my disclaimer!):
A. Adam was FIRST formed.
B. Eve was formed AFTERWARDS from flesh and bone OUT OF the MAN.
C. Adam was NOT DECEIVED.
D. The woman was the one DECEIVED.
E. The woman was the in the TRANSGRESSION (disobedience, sin).
F. Notwithstanding the woman shall be SAVED because of her childbearing.
G. Adam LISTENED to the woman instead of God.
F. Man shall RULE over the woman.
There are some interesting commentaries that could be added to the above points but I may be in enough trouble already, so I better lay low for now.
Because it is not necessary that Adam be referred to as such. As HEAD of the woman, Adam IS the father of all living!
He, he, he, I can tell you one thing for sure, without Adam, Eve would never have made it to motherhood…..and neither would have Adam made it to fatherhood without Eve!!!
quote=Dutch41]
Why is Jesus called the Son of God.. because there was no man intervention. So in your theory.. you said.. God out God. Maria was the Channel from God.
[/quote]
I think you are confused. What you say here does not make any sense to me. You almost sound like you belong to one of those “ONNESS” sects.
Tell you what, why don’t you tell me what your belief is in two or three sentences. For example, I believe that there is only ONE GOD, THE FATHER, out from Whom are all things and we are for Him and ONE LORD, JESUS CHRIST, through Whom are all things and we are through Him.
I think I’ve done enough pondering for one day.
After reading through your post several times, I feel you may not have understood what I was trying to convey with the 1COR. verses. But then again I could be wrong, since I was having a hard time following what you were trying to say.
The point I was trying to make from the Scriptures is that the relationship that exists between GOD THE FATHER and the LORD JESUS CHRIST, as revealed in 1COR 8:6, is very much like the relationship that exists between a MAN and a WOMAN as revealed in 1COR. 11:8-12 without a third co-equal party being involved.
All of this is neatly summarized in 1COR. 11:3.
Before I go on, I need to make a quick……..
DISCALIMER: Ladies, I want you all to know that I am not a MCP (that’s “Male Chauvinist Pig” for those of you who may be acronymically challenged). All I will be doing is quoting Scripture. Keep that in mind as you read what follows.
When I see someone use words like “this is how it is MEANT” and “it MEANS not”, I immediately turn on my “Anti-Tradition” Scripture radar, because they may be getting ready to “translate” the TRUTH to an untruth in order to support a TRADITION they have misplaced their faith in.
The Greek word “KEPHALE” does not have the meaning that you are trying to apply to the verses in question. In those verses it has the meaning of “authority” or “having authority over” or “be in subjection to” someone or something. For example:
Col 1:18 And HE IS THE HEAD OF THE BODY, THE CHURCH: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Eph. 5:23-24 For THE HUSBAND IS THE HEAD OF THE WIFE, even as CHRIST IS THE HEAD OF THE CHURCH: and he is the saviour of the body. THEREFORE AS THE CHURCH IS SUBJECT UNTO CHRIST, SO LET THE WIVES BE TO THEIR OWN HUSBANDS IN EVERYTHING.
Therefore, to say “when the man is the head, it means not: The man is more as the woman” is to be completely outside of the Scriptures.
Would you apply the same “interpretation” to: “…….the HEAD of man is Christ….” (1cor. 11:3) and say that it does not mean that Jesus Christ is more than mere man!?
Let’s see what the Scriptures really say about all that:
1Tim. 2:5-15 (specifically verses 13-15) “For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.”
Gen. 2:21-22 And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall on Adam, and he slept; and He took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh in its place. Then the rib which the Lord God had taken from man He made into a woman, and He brought her to the man.
Gen. 3:16-17 To the woman he said, "I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you." To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, `You must not eat of it,' "Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat of it all the days of your life.”
Notice what is pointed out in these verses (ladies, don’t forget my disclaimer!):
A. Adam was FIRST formed.
B. Eve was formed AFTERWARDS from flesh and bone OUT OF the MAN.
C. Adam was NOT DECEIVED.
D. The woman was the one DECEIVED.
E. The woman was the in the TRANSGRESSION (disobedience, sin).
F. Notwithstanding the woman shall be SAVED because of her childbearing.
G. Adam LISTENED to the woman instead of God.
F. Man shall RULE over the woman.
There are some interesting commentaries that could be added to the above points but I may be in enough trouble already, so I better lay low for now.
Because it is not necessary that Adam be referred to as such. As HEAD of the woman, Adam IS the father of all living!
He, he, he, I can tell you one thing for sure, without Adam, Eve would never have made it to motherhood…..and neither would have Adam made it to fatherhood without Eve!!!
quote=Dutch41]
Why is Jesus called the Son of God.. because there was no man intervention. So in your theory.. you said.. God out God. Maria was the Channel from God.
[/quote]
I think you are confused. What you say here does not make any sense to me. You almost sound like you belong to one of those “ONNESS” sects.
Tell you what, why don’t you tell me what your belief is in two or three sentences. For example, I believe that there is only ONE GOD, THE FATHER, out from Whom are all things and we are for Him and ONE LORD, JESUS CHRIST, through Whom are all things and we are through Him.
I think I’ve done enough pondering for one day.
D
Hello Polder,
First, I wanted to make my appology for my writings mistakes. Because it was a long time ago that I wrote in English. So if you got questions.. pls ask.
Yes, I understand that you wanted to compare the relationship with God the Father and Lord Jesus Christ, with the relationship between Man and Woman. But if you have to do that.. you have to look how it was meant. And you have to look to the start in Genesis.
Yes, I understand what you write.. and I have to say.. I made a mistake.. again.. In Holland we got one word for it. And that is source. (Instead of spring, and I used the word spring)
The word Kephal what is translated with head, got the same meaning as source of live.(Greek-Dutch dictionary)
Maybe you can try to fit it.. the Source of Live in this part. It gave you a refreshing view on the case.
Yes I read you disclaimer. but actually you said: The man is more as the woman.
In my opinion the man is the source of live of the woman. The woman came out of the man. (Interesting is in this case, that it happen just one time, the rest of the man came out of the woman)
To understand you clear:
A: Adam was First formed.. (that is true)
B: Eve was formed out of Adam, outside of the Man. (that is true.. that is why she is called a woman)
C: The woman was the one deceived. That is true, because the snake was talking to her.
E: The woman was in the transgression.. ( I agree with that too)
D: Not with standing the woman shall be saved because of her childbearing.
( I don't agree with you, is not written in the Bible)
E. Adam listened to the woman, instead of God. ( I agree, like the woman listen to the snake and not to God, but God said:[FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, [/FONT][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]and[/FONT][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif] hast eaten of the tree of which I commanded thee, saying, ‘Thou shalt not eat of it,’ cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life.[/FONT]
F. Man shall rule over the woman. (yes that is true)
And now we get something interesting about the woman:
Let my quote vs 16
[FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."[/FONT]
[FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]It is the curse of the woman that the husband shall rule over her. Before in the paradise, the man didn't rule over her. And when you wanted to compare Jesus and YHWH.. and you said: YHWH rules over Jesus.. you said actually.. Jesus did sin. [/FONT]
Yes I got a lot of commentary about Adam and Eve. 
But for now I will let it be.
You said: Adam is the father of all living. No, that isn't true. Can you gave me the Scriptual text? I don't think you can..
Adam is the source of Eve.. because Eve came out of Adam. The ruler is AFTER THE SINN, and it was a CURSE.
I think you are confused. What you say here does not make any sense to me. You almost sound like you belong to one of those “ONNESS” sects. [/quote]
Well, it was only your theory. But in my eyes your theory is really an unbiblical theory. And it is in my eye's really a stupid theory.
Why? In Gen 2:24
[FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife; and they shall be one flesh[/FONT]
And actually here is written, because Adam cleave at Eve they shall be one body. And there is not written: Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and he shall cleave unto his wife, and Adam will be the head.
What mean without the woman the man isn't complete, And if you compare YHWH-and Jesus with man and woman. Well they are one part.
I can tell you in one sentence who Jesus is: Jesus is YHWH.
But tell me: who is Jesus, before he became a human?
And there is one Kurios? Do I understand you correct?
First, I wanted to make my appology for my writings mistakes. Because it was a long time ago that I wrote in English. So if you got questions.. pls ask.
Yes, I understand that you wanted to compare the relationship with God the Father and Lord Jesus Christ, with the relationship between Man and Woman. But if you have to do that.. you have to look how it was meant. And you have to look to the start in Genesis.
Yes, I understand what you write.. and I have to say.. I made a mistake.. again.. In Holland we got one word for it. And that is source. (Instead of spring, and I used the word spring)
The word Kephal what is translated with head, got the same meaning as source of live.(Greek-Dutch dictionary)
Maybe you can try to fit it.. the Source of Live in this part. It gave you a refreshing view on the case.
Yes I read you disclaimer. but actually you said: The man is more as the woman.
In my opinion the man is the source of live of the woman. The woman came out of the man. (Interesting is in this case, that it happen just one time, the rest of the man came out of the woman)
To understand you clear:
A: Adam was First formed.. (that is true)
B: Eve was formed out of Adam, outside of the Man. (that is true.. that is why she is called a woman)
C: The woman was the one deceived. That is true, because the snake was talking to her.
E: The woman was in the transgression.. ( I agree with that too)
D: Not with standing the woman shall be saved because of her childbearing.
( I don't agree with you, is not written in the Bible)
E. Adam listened to the woman, instead of God. ( I agree, like the woman listen to the snake and not to God, but God said:[FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, [/FONT][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]and[/FONT][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif] hast eaten of the tree of which I commanded thee, saying, ‘Thou shalt not eat of it,’ cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life.[/FONT]
F. Man shall rule over the woman. (yes that is true)
And now we get something interesting about the woman:
Let my quote vs 16
[FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."[/FONT]
[FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]It is the curse of the woman that the husband shall rule over her. Before in the paradise, the man didn't rule over her. And when you wanted to compare Jesus and YHWH.. and you said: YHWH rules over Jesus.. you said actually.. Jesus did sin. [/FONT]
There are some interesting commentaries that could be added to the above points but I may be in enough trouble already, so I better lay low for now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dutch41
She is the mother of all living.. and why isn't called Adam the father of all living?
Because it is not necessary that Adam be referred to as such. As HEAD of the woman, Adam IS the father of all living!
He, he, he, I can tell you one thing for sure, without Adam, Eve would never have made it to motherhood…..and neither would have Adam made it to fatherhood without Eve!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dutch41
She is the mother of all living.. and why isn't called Adam the father of all living?
Because it is not necessary that Adam be referred to as such. As HEAD of the woman, Adam IS the father of all living!
He, he, he, I can tell you one thing for sure, without Adam, Eve would never have made it to motherhood…..and neither would have Adam made it to fatherhood without Eve!!!
But for now I will let it be.You said: Adam is the father of all living. No, that isn't true.
Can you gave me the Scriptual text? I don't think you can.. Adam is the source of Eve.. because Eve came out of Adam. The ruler is AFTER THE SINN, and it was a CURSE.
I think you are confused. What you say here does not make any sense to me. You almost sound like you belong to one of those “ONNESS” sects. [/quote]
Well, it was only your theory.
But in my eyes your theory is really an unbiblical theory. And it is in my eye's really a stupid theory.Why? In Gen 2:24
[FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife; and they shall be one flesh[/FONT]
And actually here is written, because Adam cleave at Eve they shall be one body. And there is not written: Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and he shall cleave unto his wife, and Adam will be the head.
What mean without the woman the man isn't complete, And if you compare YHWH-and Jesus with man and woman. Well they are one part.
I can tell you in one sentence who Jesus is: Jesus is YHWH.
But tell me: who is Jesus, before he became a human?
And there is one Kurios? Do I understand you correct?