Works

[eternally-gratefull]

You know perfectly well that keeping the law is not what we are speaking of, it is WANTING to keep the law. This thread is about whether a saved person should then work for the Lord or not.

To say that you must keep the law perfectly to show you have faith in Christ, is (as I am sure you know) against what scripture tells us. However there are many verses in scripture telling us to obey, to be perfect (even though we can't be), and we are to follow Him. Those verses should not be twisted around to mean that if we aren't perfect we have no faith.

There seems to be demons at work and their work is brought out when anyone speaks of obedience. All sorts of twisting and objections are found. Usually scripture is used in the objections, although it is a twist of scripture, and the motive behind these seems to be working for disobedience to God, although scripture truth is used to promote this disobedience. It is true that works won't save us, that we are dead to sin, that sin was nailed to the cross, that many laws of Moses were cancelled. These are truths from the Lord. They are not to teach disobedience.

1. how foolish is is to want to do something you KNOW is impossible to do.
2. The law can NOT show us how to be rightous. Is it not better to look at what CAN make us righteous people
3. The law is called unbearable burden, a minister of death. A tutor to lead us to christ after which we no longer need a tutur.
4. Considering the above. WHY would any one want to try to follow the law? Paul spent much time to try to tell us to walk away from what you want to puit us back in. Was Paul wrong?

again. If the law CONDEMS everyone who tries to follow it. WHY WOULD YOU CONTINUE TO WANT TO TRY TO BE UNDER WHAT CONDEMNS YOU?

there is only one way I can see. and scripture agrees. We water down the law. We make it less than it really is. so it does not condemn us. So we ignore what it teaches. then use the excuse those who do not agree with us must hate the law.

WHy do you want to be a modern day pharisee? I do not get it

 

[BillG]

You know perfectly well that keeping the law is not what we are speaking of, it is WANTING to keep the law. This thread is about whether a saved person should then work for the Lord or not.

I have been reading this thread.
Can't quite get a handle on this.
What is the law that we want to keep?
And how does this relate to wanting to work for Lord (which is a no brainer)
If such works do not fufuill the golden rule then it's mute.

 

[ewq1938]

Ecc_3:17 I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work.

God judges the righteous and the wicked, not only the wicked.

Tit_3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

Romans 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Romans 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Romans 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)
Romans 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.


Rev_14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Our works follow us to judgment day. Be careful to "maintain good works".

Jas_5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

1Pe_4:8 And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.

Here good works can even cause sins to be covered or removed which is to be forgiven.

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

 

[SophieT]

You would be a fool if you listened to me as a person, either I speak from God's word or what I say is absolutely nothing. My thoughts are only for you to search scripture to see if I am correct or not.

And it is absolutely wrong of you to say that what I say of scripture is 'threatening PEOPLE". If I say someone would be wrong if they don't listen to God, it is not threatening people, it is stating a biblical truth that I found. If you think it is not a biblical truth, say so, don't accuse me. It is about scripture, not about gunning for people.

I have 'searched' scripture and continue to do so

you are wrong

as most here try to tell you

 

[SophieT]

Wow, just wow

so I admit I can not keep the law. and in doing so it shows I have no faith in Christ?

I am seriously worried about you

like my dog actually catching her tail and spinning...catches your attention but you don't want to emulate it

 

[Blik]

1. how foolish is is to want to do something you KNOW is impossible to do.
2. The law can NOT show us how to be rightous. Is it not better to look at what CAN make us righteous people
3. The law is called unbearable burden, a minister of death. A tutor to lead us to christ after which we no longer need a tutur.
4. Considering the above. WHY would any one want to try to follow the law? Paul spent much time to try to tell us to walk away from what you want to puit us back in. Was Paul wrong?

again. If the law CONDEMS everyone who tries to follow it. WHY WOULD YOU CONTINUE TO WANT TO TRY TO BE UNDER WHAT CONDEMNS YOU?

there is only one way I can see. and scripture agrees. We water down the law. We make it less than it really is. so it does not condemn us. So we ignore what it teaches. then use the excuse those who do not agree with us must hate the law.

WHy do you want to be a modern day pharisee? I do not get it

1. Christ is not foolish, yet Christ said to be perfect, knowing it was only through Him we could be perfect. We are to be perfect through Christ.

2. The law is holy, the law is good according to scripture, the law tells us what is sin.

3. Christ said come to me, my burden is light. It is bondage to sin the is a terrible burden, or thinking that a rite is obeying he spirit of the law.

4. We are not to follow the law, we are to follow Christ. The law tells us how to do that. It is not of our own power we follow Christ, it it is Christ within. Christ never once told us to ignore the law, but to be humble and listen as a child listens and accept all that Christ is. Christ is grace, Christ is love, Christ is forgiveness and the law tells us how to live in a way that expresses that. We can't do it perfectly, but Christ never once told us not to do this. These posts go on and on and on about how terrible it is to listen to Christ as Christ tells us of the law.

 

[Blik]

I have been reading this thread.
Can't quite get a handle on this.
What is the law that we want to keep?
And how does this relate to wanting to work for Lord (which is a no brainer)
If such works do not fufuill the golden rule then it's mute.

If you read the 119th Psalm, it explains the law that God wants us to aim for keeping. And you are so right about love. When the law was written in stone, it was written as hard and fast rules without pointing to the love that were part of every rule. You could keep the Sabbath that obeyed the hard rule, but do it without love so it wasn't keeping the law of the Lord. The story of the good Samaritan tells us this. Love is to be the basic "rule" of every law. There is an expression of love in every one of the laws given to us in stone, but without love the laws in stone are nothing. Circumcision by cutting flesh was a law in stone, circumcision of the heart is a law of love.

 

[Dino246]

4. We are not to follow the law, we are to follow Christ. The law tells us how to do that.

No it does not!

These posts go on and on and on about how terrible it is to listen to Christ as Christ tells us of the law.

No, they don't. That's more of your unfortunate incomprehension misconstruing the words of others.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

1. Christ is not foolish, yet Christ said to be perfect, knowing it was only through Him we could be perfect. We are to be perfect through Christ.

2. The law is holy, the law is good according to scripture, the law tells us what is sin.

3. Christ said come to me, my burden is light. It is bondage to sin the is a terrible burden, or thinking that a rite is obeying he spirit of the law.

4. We are not to follow the law, we are to follow Christ. The law tells us how to do that. It is not of our own power we follow Christ, it it is Christ within. Christ never once told us to ignore the law, but to be humble and listen as a child listens and accept all that Christ is. Christ is grace, Christ is love, Christ is forgiveness and the law tells us how to live in a way that expresses that. We can't do it perfectly, but Christ never once told us not to do this. These posts go on and on and on about how terrible it is to listen to Christ as Christ tells us of the law.

Why would Christ tell us to do something he knows we can’t do?And if he wanted us to be perfect. He certainly would not point us to the law. Because they law can’t do it. That’s why it is called a burden

Jesus came to give rest. I pray you find his rest soon

 

[ewq1938]

The old law was bondage:

Gal 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

Before faith, Jews such as Paul were under the law.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

But Jews that received that faith are no longer under the law!


Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

And here we have it. This is applied to all, whether Jew or not because all are one in Christ and thus all who receive the faith and have put on Christ should not be under the law any further, as Paul was no longer.


Gal 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
Gal 4:10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.
Gal 4:11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.
Gal 4:12 Brethren, I beseech you, be as I am; for I am as ye are: ye have not injured me at all.
Gal 4:13 Ye know how through infirmity of the flesh I preached the gospel unto you at the first.
Gal 4:14 And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus.
Gal 4:15 Where is then the blessedness ye spake of? for I bear you record, that, if it had been possible, ye would have plucked out your own eyes, and have given them to me.
Gal 4:16 Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?
Gal 4:17 They zealously affect you, but not well; yea, they would exclude you, that ye might affect them.
Gal 4:18 But it is good to be zealously affected always in a good thing, and not only when I am present with you.
Gal 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,
Gal 4:20 I desire to be present with you now, and to change my voice; for I stand in doubt of you.



Gal 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

The subject of these verses is the law.


Gal 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
Gal 4:23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

What came at Sinai? The law! And the law came as part of the Sinai Covenant! And that covenant which contained the law "gendereth to bondage" which means to "create bondage".

Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Gal 4:27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
Gal 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
Gal 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

And thus we should be free and not be put in bondage by the old covenant and the law. Sin isn't even mentioned here so we cannot replace the law and the covenant with "sin" and alter Paul's concise words, context nor subject.

I know it's hard, maybe even impossible for some to accept this but it's in black and white.

Gal_4:16 Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

He says this because what he is talking about made him many enemies but it was only the truth.





Rom_10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.


Romans 10:4

(ASV) For Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness to every one that believeth.

(BBE) For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who has faith.

(CEV) But Christ makes the Law no longer necessary for those who become acceptable to God by faith.

(Darby) For Christ is the end of law for righteousness to every one that believes.

(DRB) For the end of the law is Christ: unto justice to everyone that believeth.

(ESV) For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

(ISV) For the Messiah is the culmination of the Law as far as righteousness is concerned for everyone who believes.

(KJV) For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

(LITV) For Christ is the end of Law for righteousness to everyone that believes.

(MKJV) For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness for everyone who believes.

(YLT) For Christ is an end of law for righteousness to every one who is believing,

 

[Blik]

I have 'searched' scripture and continue to do so

you are wrong

as most here try to tell you

I need to know where scripture tells me I am wrong. If you feel any kindness you would point to the scripture that is truth, I am a human and cannot be relied on for truth. I have also searched scripture, and do my best to humbly sit before it, and these are the things I find in scripture. You are also human, it is scripture that is over us all.

 

[Blik]

Why would Christ tell us to do something he knows we can’t do?And if he wanted us to be perfect. He certainly would not point us to the law. Because they law can’t do it. That’s why it is called a burden

Jesus came to give rest. I pray you find his rest soon

I do not know why Christ told us to be perfect, I only know Christ did say that. It seems to me he told us that as another way of saying "repent". We can only reach heaven when we are perfect, and we can only be perfect through what Christ did for us.

Mat_5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Paul tells us: Romans 12:1-2
I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.

Luke 15:3 No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.

 

[Jackson123]

Why would Christ tell us to do something he knows we can’t do?And if he wanted us to be perfect. He certainly would not point us to the law. Because they law can’t do it. That’s why it is called a burden

Jesus came to give rest. I pray you find his rest soon

Jesus exactly say be perfect

Matt 5
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Read full chapter

I know you not agree with Jesus, but to be save you have agree with Him

Is Jesus say unless you perfect you not save?
It may not, I am never read a verse that say you save if you are perfect
But I ever read a verse by grace through faith you save. Not grace alone, but grace through faith.
And I believe strong faith in Jesus will lead us to what Jesus want in Matt 5:48( perfect)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I do not know why Christ told us to be perfect, I only know Christ did say that. It seems to me he told us that as another way of saying "repent". We can only reach heaven when we are perfect, and we can only be perfect through what Christ did for us.

Mat_5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Paul tells us: Romans 12:1-2
I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.

Luke 15:3 No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.

1. Yeah, no one has true saving faith unless they repent, it’s I possible
2. we will not be affective unless we sacrifice. That’s the law of love love others more than self, it’s also the means of no sin, love of self is sin,
3. he did not mean sinless perfect there, again he would not tell us to do something we can not do, he can tell us to strive to that point hitch is most likely what he was doing

but again, he would not point us to law for being perfect. The law was not given for that purpose

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Jesus exactly say be perfect

Matt 5
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Read full chapter

I know you not agree with Jesus, but to be save you have agree with Him

Is Jesus say unless you perfect you not save?
It may not, I am never read a verse that say you save if you are perfect
But I ever read a verse by grace through faith you save. Not grace alone, but grace through faith.
And I believe strong faith in Jesus will lead us to what Jesus want in Matt 5:48( perfect)

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but by his mercy, he saved us

if perfection was required, we could save ourselves.

that was the purpose of the law. To prove this point to us

sadly. Some think they can keep the law and try to drag others down that path of pharisaism with them

 

[SophieT]

I need to know where scripture tells me I am wrong. If you feel any kindness you would point to the scripture that is truth, I am a human and cannot be relied on for truth. I have also searched scripture, and do my best to humbly sit before it, and these are the things I find in scripture. You are also human, it is scripture that is over us all.

Blik, people have posted a book's worth of Bible verses and passages to help you see where you are wrong

the kindness would be if you would quit saying no one tells you where you are wrong

 

[Dino246]

I need to know where scripture tells me I am wrong. If you feel any kindness you would point to the scripture that is truth, I am a human and cannot be relied on for truth. I have also searched scripture, and do my best to humbly sit before it, and these are the things I find in scripture. You are also human, it is scripture that is over us all.

The problem is not that you have not been shown Scripture; the problem is that you twist the Scripture to your own liking.

Scripture says that the old covenant is obsolete and (was) passing away; you say God "added to" the old covenant.

Scripture says that Christ is the end of the law for those who believe; you say we are to follow the law to follow Christ.

As I have said to you many times, don't paraphrase! Don't paraphrase Scripture; accept it for what it actually says. Instead of trying to force-fit your own ideas into Scripture, let Scripture reshape your ideas. The new covenant in Christ's blood is not a mere addition to the old covenant; it is a replacement. It's a bit like buying a new mattress because the old one was broken, lumpy, and profoundly uncomfortable; you don't merely put the new one on top; you remove the old one and don't sleep on it any more!

 

[Blik]

1. Yeah, no one has true saving faith unless they repent, it’s I possible
2. we will not be affective unless we sacrifice. That’s the law of love love others more than self, it’s also the means of no sin, love of self is sin,
3. he did not mean sinless perfect there, again he would not tell us to do something we can not do, he can tell us to strive to that point hitch is most likely what he was doing

but again, he would not point us to law for being perfect. The law was not given for that purpose

Then how do you find in scripture how we are to use the law that is given to us all through scripture. God tells us not to use it for salvation, what do you think God is telling us to use it for?

My post promote using law to help us know how to live with Christ within and in a belief that the 119th psalm is from God telling us how to use law, your posts all oppose mine in so many ways. God must mean for us to use it or scripture would not be so filled with it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Then how do you find in scripture how we are to use the law that is given to us all through scripture. God tells us not to use it for salvation, what do you think God is telling us to use it for?

paul,told you. To lead them (and you) to Christ as a schoolmaster,

My post promote using law to help us know how to live with Christ within and in a belief that the 119th psalm is from God telling us how to use law, your posts all oppose mine in so many ways. God must mean for us to use it or scripture would not be so filled with it.

the law does not tell you how to what ypur promoting, it was not made for that purpose

your taking the law out of context, and in doing so, destroying it,

I pray you see this soon, befor you damage other people

 

[Blik]

The problem is not that you have not been shown Scripture; the problem is that you twist the Scripture to your own liking.

Scripture says that the old covenant is obsolete and (was) passing away; you say God "added to" the old covenant.

Scripture says that Christ is the end of the law for those who believe; you say we are to follow the law to follow Christ.

As I have said to you many times, don't paraphrase! Don't paraphrase Scripture; accept it for what it actually says. Instead of trying to force-fit your own ideas into Scripture, let Scripture reshape your ideas. The new covenant in Christ's blood is not a mere addition to the old covenant; it is a replacement. It's a bit like buying a new mattress because the old one was broken, lumpy, and profoundly uncomfortable; you don't merely put the new one on top; you remove the old one and don't sleep on it any more!

How I wish you listened to scripture enough that we could discuss this, but I find you will only go to how good, right, and perfect you are and how bad, illogical, and impossible I am--no scripture allowed to interfere with these positions you have. It is impossible to discuss scripture with you.