Why it will be a pre-trib rapture and why the rapture takes place.

[KJV1611]

Jesus said he had come to set the captives free. Those that were in Abrahams bosom were captive. That is proof of life my friend.
What you need to do is let the Holy Spirit guide you. Jesus said when he talks of earthly things we don't understand so how can we understand heavenly things.
At the time of our lord's death the ramson had been paid. Christ desended before ascending.
Why do you have a hard time in connecting the dots? Stop seeking for yourself my friend and start seeking the Lord.

I've been saying all along that the OT saints went to Abraham's bosom BEFORE Christ came. After Christ came, they were raised and taken to heaven. Where am I having a hard time connecting the dots?

 

[KJV1611]

Num_10:2 Make thee two trumpets of silver; of a whole piece shalt thou make them: that thou mayest use them for the calling of the assembly, and for the journeying of the camps.

Are you guys aware that the trumpets in Numbers 10 represents the bible? The last Trump is the New Testament.

 

[pottersclay]

I've been saying all along that the OT saints went to Abraham's bosom BEFORE Christ came. After Christ came, they were raised and taken to heaven. Where am I having a hard time connecting the dots?

Your post are conflicting or I'm getting to old for this.😂

The reason why the ot saints were walking around Jerusalem is that yes they were set free the ramson paid.
But untill the first day of the week which is the first time jesus ascended to present the grain offering for the harvest to the father
They remained on earth.

 

[KJV1611]

Your post are conflicting or I'm getting to old for this.😂

The reason why the ot saints were walking around Jerusalem is that yes they were set free the ramson paid.
But untill the first day of the week which is the first time jesus ascended to present the grain offering for the harvest to the father
They remained on earth.

Age is a state of mind.

I'm getting lazy, where does the bible say Jesus ascended on the first day of the week?

 

[KJV1611]

Age is a state of mind.

I'm getting lazy, where does the bible say Jesus ascended on the first day of the week?

I found it.

Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

 

[KJV1611]

Your post are conflicting or I'm getting to old for this.😂

The reason why the ot saints were walking around Jerusalem is that yes they were set free the ramson paid.
But untill the first day of the week which is the first time jesus ascended to present the grain offering for the harvest to the father
They remained on earth.

I like your line of thinking on the grain offering, I haven't looked at much of this from the feasts perspective. Consider this though. In the book of Acts we are told that Jesus would return in "like manner" as he left. The book of Jude says that Jesus will return with ten thousands of his saints. I would argue that the OT saints most likely ascended with Jesus then.

Does the grain offering have 50 days tied to it in any way?

 

[Yahshua]

To your first question, let me make a short summary of my timeline. I'll use fictitious calendar years, just to make the point

• 1,500 BC - Law is given to Israel
• 720 BC - ten northern Tribes carried away
• 600 BC - two southern Tribes carried away
• 530 BC - 2.5% of Judah and Benjamin return to rebuild Temple and later the City
• 4 BC Jesus is born
• 30 AD Jesus is murdered
• 70 AD Judah and Benjamin dispersed
• 70 AD - 2030 AD Israel chastised
• 2030 Israel, a new State, embrace the Beast and allow him into the Holy Place
• 2033 Second coming of the Lord, Armageddon, and Israel resurrected and gathered (Ezek.37)
• 2034 - 2130 Millennial Kingdom (Messianic Kingdom) ON EARTH
• 2131 -2140 Magog gathers an army and rebels, is defeated and God has White Throne Judgment
• 2141 - the "ages to come" on the New (Renewed - lit. Gk.) Earth

I say again, the dates are fictitious. I make no claim to knowing any date after 70 AD.

To your second question I have the same problem as you. But I think the answer is in verse 5, in the word "prevailed". "And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof." The words "hath prevailed" imply a dispute, or an argument in which one is victorious. It would seem, and I cannot prove this, that God set a standard for anyone to be worthy. A time passes in which heaven waits to see who will claim this worthiness. After a suitable wait, our Lord steps forth in His dual capacity as (i) King of Israel by Covenant between God and David, and (ii) firstborn of creation, making Him the Root of David. But we must then ask; Why these ranks and not one of the many other high ranks of our Lord Jesus?

I cannot answer. I can only surmise that the events that precipitate the Great Tribulation take place in Jerusalem - "the City of the Great King ... where Jesus was crucified". I say this because the following verse alludes to Him being the Lamb and being slain. It was Pontius Pilate, representative of Rome, who ordered a placard on the cross "King of the Jews". In 30 AD therefore, it was Jerusalem verses Rome. The Abomination of Desolation is again Rome verses Jerusalem. And again it is Caesar verses Jesus. Pilate, who should have represented Rome, agreed that Jesus was of David's House. But this time, Jesus comes, not as the suffering Son of Joseph, but the rampaging LION of Judah. It is from this Seat that Jesus will rule the world after His return (Zech.14:16).

Thanks Corban. I appreciate the outline. Yes it answered my questions. I see where we're similar. I miss the time when we could post tables in threads back when this site used a different platform. It was much easier to share information.

Here's a link to an online spreadsheet of my timeline if you're ever curious. The left side shows a summary of events and prophecy, while the right shows references from scripture, etc. Best if viewed on a computer screen, not a phone.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...lvlOQI4nEPPcLmaiDPoVaYMo6Jk/edit?usp=drivesdk

You've probably noticed this already, but in case you haven't, Ezekiel chapters 34 through 40 give a prophetic summary from the time remnant Judah was to return from Babylonian captivity, to Messiah dealing with corrupt shepherds as he looks for his lost sheep, to the destruction of Jerusalem and their scattering, through to the events like Gog & Magog leading to the millennial temple (i.e. new age). It can be used to further confirm the timeline.

Thanks again!

Blessings.

 

[pottersclay]

Age is a state of mind.

I'm getting lazy, where does the bible say Jesus ascended on the first day of the week?

As high priest (he had to acend ) to present the grain offering on the first day of the week. (Read my posts).
Jesus ascended twice.

 

[pottersclay]

I like your line of thinking on the grain offering, I haven't looked at much of this from the feasts perspective. Consider this though. In the book of Acts we are told that Jesus would return in "like manner" as he left. The book of Jude says that Jesus will return with ten thousands of his saints. I would argue that the OT saints most likely ascended with Jesus then.

Does the grain offering have 50 days tied to it in any way?

Yes by actually 49 that is the counting of the omer. Jesus broke that by 9days which 50 days brings us into pentecost.

 

[KJV1611]

Yes by actually 49 that is the counting of the omer. Jesus broke that by 9days which 50 days brings us into pentecost.

Where is the counting of the omer found in the bible?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Num_10:2 Make thee two trumpets of silver; of a whole piece shalt thou make them: that thou mayest use them for the calling of the assembly, and for the journeying of the camps.

Are you guys aware that the trumpets in Numbers 10 represents the bible? The last Trump is the New Testament.

I've pointed out Numbers 10:4 a number of times :


Numbers 10:4 -

"But if only ONE is sounded, then the leaders [*H5387 - nasi/nasiyhan-nə-śî-’îm/ (from nasa - H5375)], the heads [**H7218 - rosh] of the clans of Israel, are to gather [/meet - ***H3259 - yaad/wə-nō-w-‘ă-ḏū] before you [that is, before/unto Moses]."


--*H5387 - nasi/nasiy/han-nə-śî-’îm (from nasa - H5375) - 'one lifted up, exalted one, king, prince, leader, cloud'


--**H7218 - rosh - 'heads'


--***H3259 - yaad/wə-nō-w-‘ă-ḏū - 'gather, meet, to meet (at a stated time), assemble, cause to meet, summon (to trial), acquiring or designating as wife'




[2Th2:1 - "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering-together UNTO HIM"]



Why are you saying "the last Trump is the New Testament" ? NVM... I re-read your post... I get it now...

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ ... See also 1Cor14:8a [Paul said], "For if the trumpet give an uncertain [/indistinct] sound... "


[the "two silver trumpets" (Numbers 10) were to be blown in certain patterns for certain purposes--see again my Post #151]

 

[KJV1611]

I've pointed out Numbers 10:4 a number of times :


Numbers 10:4 -

"But if only ONE is sounded, then the leaders [*H5387 - nasi/nasiyhan-nə-śî-’îm/ (from nasa - H5375)], the heads [**H7218 - rosh] of the clans of Israel, are to gather [/meet - ***H3259 - yaad/wə-nō-w-‘ă-ḏū] before you [that is, before/unto Moses]."


--*H5387 - nasi/nasiy/han-nə-śî-’îm (from nasa - H5375) - 'one lifted up, exalted one, king, prince, leader, cloud'


--**H7218 - rosh - 'heads'


--***H3259 - yaad/wə-nō-w-‘ă-ḏū - 'gather, meet, to meet (at a stated time), assemble, cause to meet, summon (to trial), acquiring or designating as wife'




[2Th2:1 - "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering-together UNTO HIM"]



Why are you saying "the last Trump is the New Testament" ? NVM... I re-read your post... I get it now...

The lord comes at the sounding of the last trump, the time when the dead in Christ were raised. 👍

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The lord comes at the sounding of the last trump, the time when the dead in Christ were raised. 👍

I'm trying to figure out what you are saying (when viewing your post in light of posts you've already made in this thread [and elsewhere])... are you saying that Paul (in 1Cor15:52 'the last trump') is referring back to what had happened in Matthew 27:52-53 (32ad), or perhaps when each individual believer comes to faith... or dies... (according to your view)??


[note to readers: I believe the phrase "IN CHRIST" (or "IN HIM") is strictly a NT designation, pertaining solely to "the Church which is His body" (Eph1:20-23 WHEN [as to its existence]); not to all other saints of all OTHER time periods; in view of this... "the dead IN Christ" have not YET been "raised" / "shall rise first"]

 

[KJV1611]

I'm trying to figure out what you are saying (when viewing your post in light of posts you've already made in this thread [and elsewhere])... are you saying that Paul (in 1Cor15:52) is referring back to what had happened in Matthew 27:52-53 (32ad), or perhaps when each individual believer comes to faith... or dies... (according to your view)??


[note to readers: I believe the phrase "IN CHRIST" (or "IN HIM") is strictly a NT designation, pertaining solely to "the Church which is His body" (Eph1:20-23 WHEN [as to its existence]); not to all other saints of all OTHER time periods.]

Yes, Matthew 27:52-53 was fulfillment of Daniel 12:2.

(Dan 12:2) And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

 

[KJV1611]

It's also fulfillment of this.

Isa 26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

Verse 19 is the word of the Lord (Jesus) speaking, not Isaiah. Note that he says THY dead men and not OUR dead men shall live. Together with the speaker's (the word of the Lord, Jesus) dead body shall they arise.

 

[KJV1611]

Pro 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

Do you see how the resurrection is concealed in that verse. I think all of the verses leading up to verse 19 is Isaiah speaking and then at the resurrection verse it changes over to Jesus being the speaker. The truth is hidden right there in plain sight but most will not accept that Jesus is the speaker of verse 19 even though the grammar clearly shows that it isn't Isaiah and the only other speaker that it could be is the word of the Lord.

Isa 26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Yes, Matthew 27:52-53 was fulfillment of Daniel 12:2.

(Dan 12:2) And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Okay, I grasp your viewpoint...

but just for the record, I will place my view here (to be clear to the readers), again:

Daniel 12:1-4,10 is not speaking of a "bodily/physical resurrection" from the dead... but instead is speaking of "Israel - coming up out of the graveyard of nations, where scattered [i.e. 'sown / sow... in the earth']'" [context of Dan12:1-4,10 - future trib yrs (after Lk21:24 took place [70ad]: "and they shall be led away captive into all the nations")], and which parallels the following passages I'm always listing out (when on that Subject):

--Ezekiel 37:12-14,20-23 [dry bones prophecy] "... I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone... and bring them into their own land."

--Hosea 5:14-6:3

--Romans 11:15[25-29] "... what shall the receiving of them [/Israel] be, but LIFE FROM THE DEAD?"

--Isaiah 26:15-21

--John 6:39 [as distinct from v.40]

--possibly others...


...ALL about Israel's "FUTURE"... and which passages LIKEN [this] UNTO a resurrection.

But in Daniel 12:1-4,10, it tells what they GO ON TO DO (during that particular time-frame, in that context... at the END of such "days" ['day-amounts' named in the text], then Daniel is said he will "stand in thy lot [i.e. be 'resurrected' to stand again on the earth] at the END of the days"--that is, at the END of the 'days' named IN THAT CONTEXT, vv.6-7,1... a very specific set of days, which also correlate with other passages elsewhere in Scripture--it hasn't taken place yet).

 

[KJV1611]

Okay, I grasp your viewpoint...

but just for the record, I will place my view here (to be clear to the readers), again:

Daniel 12:1-4,10 is not speaking of a "bodily/physical resurrection" from the dead... but instead is speaking of "Israel - coming up out of the graveyard of nations, where scattered [i.e. 'sown / sow... in the earth']'" [context of Dan12:1-4,10 - future trib yrs (after Lk21:24 took place [70ad]: "and they shall be led away captive into all the nations")], and which parallels the following passages I'm always listing out (when on that Subject):

--Ezekiel 37:12-14,20-23 "... I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone... and bring them into their own land."

--Hosea 5:14-6:3

--Romans 11:15[25-29] "... what shall the receiving of them [/Israel] be, but LIFE FROM THE DEAD?"

--Isaiah 26:15-21

--John 6:39 [as distinct from v.40]

--possibly others...


...ALL about Israel's "FUTURE"... and which passages LIKEN [this] UNTO a resurrection.

But in Daniel 12:1-4,10, it tells what they GO ON TO DO (during that particular time-frame, in that context... at the END of such "days" ['day-amounts' named in the text], then Daniel is said he will "stand in thy lot [i.e. be 'resurrected' to stand again on the earth] at the END of the days"--that is, at the END of the 'days' named IN THAT CONTEXT, vv.6-7,1... a very specific set of days, which also correlate with other passages elsewhere in Scripture--it hasn't taken place yet).

Below WAS the history of Israel. God took the kingdom from them and gave it to another nation to bring forth the fruits of the kingdom.

Amo 8:2 And he said, Amos, what seest thou? And I said, A basket of summer fruit. Then said the LORD unto me, The end is come upon my people of Israel; I will not again pass by them any more.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Below WAS the history of Israel. God took the kingdom from them and gave it to another nation to bring forth the fruits of the kingdom.

Amo 8:2 And he said, Amos, what seest thou? And I said, A basket of summer fruit. Then said the LORD unto me, The end is come upon my people of Israel; I will not again pass by them any more.

We've been over this before (and your mis-understanding of the verse you keep posting/isolating), so I will post this again for the benefit of the readers (any who care to view it):

[re-posting]

Compare the same wording in each of these two verses:

Amos 8:2 - https://biblehub.com/text/amos/8-2.htm "“Amos, what do you see?” He asked. “A basket of summer fruit,” I replied. So the LORD said to me, “The end has come for My people Israel; I will no longer spare them.”

Amos 7:8 - https://biblehub.com/text/amos/7-8.htm "“Amos, what do you see?” asked the LORD. “A plumb line,” I replied. “Behold,” said the Lord, “I am setting a plumb line among My people Israel; I will no longer spare them: "



...then see the next chapter,

esp Amos 9:11-15 - https://biblehub.com/bsb/amos/9.htm



[end quoting old post]