Why it will be a pre-trib rapture and why the rapture takes place.

[KJV1611]

Depends on "context"... if the sentence says, "you with [G4862] Bozo the Clown," then NO.

Why is it that you’re the only translator that translates it as married. I checked multiple versions and all versions translate it the same way.

That’s called twisting the scripture to make it say what you want it to say.

 

[Corban]

Lol the rapture is to heaven..to the marriage...to the feast.

Read the 10 virgin parable.

I don't understand. I just, in that posting, expounded a few points on the parable and you say I must read it. Have you no comment on my points?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Why is it that you’re the only translator that translates it as married. I checked multiple versions and all versions translate it the same way.

That’s called twisting the scripture to make it say what you want it to say.

I said, "WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-with]" is distinct from "with [G3326 - accompanying]" like is used in the "10 VirginS/BridesmaidS [PLURAL]" passage (Matt25:1,10) who Jesus is NOT coming to MARRY (PLURAL "virginS"--not even "5" of them!<--THIS pertains to "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER [the earthly MK age] NOT "the MARRIAGE" itself pertaining to the "Bride/Wife [SINGULAR]"... which pertains to what Paul had said in 2Cor11:2 "that *I* may PRESENT"... and THAT is at a PARTICULAR POINT-IN-TIME [not occurring at various points in time throughout time/history])

 

[KJV1611]

I said, "WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-with]" is distinct from "with [G3326 - accompanying]" like is used in the "10 VirginS/BridesmaidS [PLURAL]" passage (Matt25:1,10) who Jesus is NOT coming to MARRY (PLURAL "virginS"--not even "5" of them!<--THIS pertains to "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER [the earthly MK age] NOT "the MARRIAGE" itself pertaining to the "Bride/Wife [SINGULAR]"... which pertains to what Paul had said in 2Cor11:2 "that *I* may PRESENT"... and THAT is at a PARTICULAR POINT-IN-TIME [not occurring at various points in time throughout time/history])

Union is distinct from accompanying. That’s not the issue, the issue is that trying to force union into marriage.

Union simply means to join two things together. The Union of the United States of America’s isn’t a marriage. The union of Soviet Socialist isn’t a marriage.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Union simply means to join two things together. The Union of the United States of America’s isn’t a marriage. The union of Soviet Socialist isn’t a marriage.

That's why I said, it depends on CONTEXT.

 

[KJV1611]

That's why I said, it depends on CONTEXT.

1Th 4:17 (KJV) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The context of 1 Thessalonians 4:17 is the TRANSLATION of believers, not the wedding of believers.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Here's another verse (like we were talking about earlier) that speaks of what is taking place in the "NOW" :

"But the one being-joined [*G2853] to the Lord is one spirit." 1Cor6:17 [that is NOW... in the "NOW"]

[*G2853 same word as found in Matthew 19:5 ("[a man shall leave...] and [shall] be joined [G2853] to the wife of him")... but here ^ it is referring to "spirit" (rather than "bodily/physically," at this point/in this present age)]




____________

Paul's use of "that *I* may PRESENT..." refers to a particular point-in-time, when the Body[/Bride] is complete (that is, ALL those saved "in this present age [SINGULAR]")

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

1Th2:19 "For who is our hope or joy or crown of boasting? Or are not even you, before our Lord Jesus at [en - G1722] His coming?" [<--comp. wording in 2Th2:1... where it also says, "our episynagoges [noun] UNTO HIM" (this is "the meeting [noun] of the Lord IN THE AIR" that we will be "caught up TOGETHER" to, at the same time / the same point-in-time [bodily--new/glorified/perfected bodies, that is ])]

 

[KJV1611]

Here's another verse (like we were talking about earlier) that speaks of what is taking place in the "NOW" :

"But the one being-joined [*G2853] to the Lord is one spirit." 1Cor6:17 [that is NOW... in the "NOW"]

[*G2853 same word as found in Matthew 19:5 ("[a man shall leave...] and [shall] be joined [G2853] to the wife of him")... but here ^ it is referring to "spirit" (rather than "bodily/physically," at this point/in this present age)]




____________

Paul's use of "that *I* may PRESENT..." refers to a particular point-in-time, when the Body[/Bride] is complete (that is, ALL those saved "in this present age [SINGULAR]")

It’s not talking about spirit there it’s talking about sex. A man and woman join together and his DNA together with her DNA forms a new creation

The same is true between us and Christ. His DNA, the word of God, together with our DNA forms a new creation, the second birth.

 

[Corban]

Yes I see where you're coming from. Thanks for taking the time to share it.




I agree with you regarding Hosea 6:2 and tying 2 Peter 3:8 to it. I just have a few questions to understand your timing of Jacob's trouble after the completion of the church...

So we agree the passage prophesies that after 2 millennia, in the 3rd millennium that follows, the people would be "raised up" and live in the Lord's sight.

Do you interpret this "raising up" as the resurrection with the gathering, or simply as a gathering only?

Also, when does Israel accept the gentile king after the 2 millennia if they live in the Lords sight after being raised up? I guess I'm asking if you're saying whether the restoration of Israel begins with the worship of the antichrist/gentile king or not.





I believe it's both, revealing the Messiah as king and judge during this age into the next...but I respect your viewpoint as goes into interpreting text...

But here's an interesting question I thought of as I read the last potion of your reply regarding the second coming...

In Revelation 5 we have a scene where an angel asks, "who is worthy to take the scroll and loose its seals?" And John tells us that no one anywhere is found worthy.

Rev 5:2-3
And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, “Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?” 3 But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it

The reality of this weighs so heavily on him that John starts to cry, as if to express hopelessness.

Of course, we know that the Messiah is alone worthy, and we next read that He appears and takes the scroll...but prior to Him appearing the passage says there was no one in heaven worthy enough...

If we know the Messiah is in heaven right now, sitting on the throne, how can this passage still be true if still set in the future?

To your first question, let me make a short summary of my timeline. I'll use fictitious calendar years, just to make the point

• 1,500 BC - Law is given to Israel
• 720 BC - ten northern Tribes carried away
• 600 BC - two southern Tribes carried away
• 530 BC - 2.5% of Judah and Benjamin return to rebuild Temple and later the City
• 4 BC Jesus is born
• 30 AD Jesus is murdered
• 70 AD Judah and Benjamin dispersed
• 70 AD - 2030 AD Israel chastised
• 2030 Israel, a new State, embrace the Beast and allow him into the Holy Place
• 2033 Second coming of the Lord, Armageddon, and Israel resurrected and gathered (Ezek.37)
• 2034 - 2130 Millennial Kingdom (Messianic Kingdom) ON EARTH
• 2131 -2140 Magog gathers an army and rebels, is defeated and God has White Throne Judgment
• 2141 - the "ages to come" on the New (Renewed - lit. Gk.) Earth

I say again, the dates are fictitious. I make no claim to knowing any date after 70 AD.

To your second question I have the same problem as you. But I think the answer is in verse 5, in the word "prevailed". "And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof." The words "hath prevailed" imply a dispute, or an argument in which one is victorious. It would seem, and I cannot prove this, that God set a standard for anyone to be worthy. A time passes in which heaven waits to see who will claim this worthiness. After a suitable wait, our Lord steps forth in His dual capacity as (i) King of Israel by Covenant between God and David, and (ii) firstborn of creation, making Him the Root of David. But we must then ask; Why these ranks and not one of the many other high ranks of our Lord Jesus?

I cannot answer. I can only surmise that the events that precipitate the Great Tribulation take place in Jerusalem - "the City of the Great King ... where Jesus was crucified". I say this because the following verse alludes to Him being the Lamb and being slain. It was Pontius Pilate, representative of Rome, who ordered a placard on the cross "King of the Jews". In 30 AD therefore, it was Jerusalem verses Rome. The Abomination of Desolation is again Rome verses Jerusalem. And again it is Caesar verses Jesus. Pilate, who should have represented Rome, agreed that Jesus was of David's House. But this time, Jesus comes, not as the suffering Son of Joseph, but the rampaging LION of Judah. It is from this Seat that Jesus will rule the world after His return (Zech.14:16).

 

[KJV1611]

1Th2:19 "For who is our hope or joy or crown of boasting? Or are not even you, before our Lord Jesus at [en - G1722] His coming?" [<--comp. wording in 2Th2:1... where it also says, "our episynagoges [noun] UNTO HIM" (this is "the meeting [noun] of the Lord IN THE AIR" that we will be "caught up TOGETHER" to, at the same time / the same point-in-time [bodily--new/glorified/perfected bodies, that is ])]

We can’t enter into heaven unless we have been translated into glorified bodies, if we could, the Old Testament saints would’ve went straight to heaven instead of Abraham’s bosom.

When we die, we go straight to heaven. We are translated at our death.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

It’s not talking about spirit there it’s talking about sex. A man and woman join together and his DNA together with her DNA forms a new creation

Sorry for not being more clear... when I said "THIS... referring to "'spirit'," I was speaking of the 1Cor6:17 verse which uses the word "spirit"... "is one spirit"

... I was not referring to the "man and wife" Matt19:5 verse (though both verses use the word "joined"--same Grk word--which is what I was pointing out... so Matt19:5 is talking about a man and wife being "joined"... whereas 1Cor6:17 is talking about "the one being-joined to the Lord is ONE SPIRIT" [even now... that is, in SPIRIT]).

 

[pottersclay]

Yes they died in faith in Jesus Christ just like us. They were in Christ just like us, the only difference between them and us is that they weren’t called Christians because the term “Christian” wasn’t coined until New Testament times.

The same faith of abraham

 

[KJV1611]

The same faith of abraham

Agreed it is the same faith as David, Daniel, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

We can’t enter into heaven unless we have been translated into glorified bodies, if we could, the Old Testament saints would’ve went straight to heaven instead of Abraham’s bosom.

When we die, we go straight to heaven. We are translated at our death.

Read again the postings I've made on 2Cor5:1-8, where:

--"UNCLOTHED" means "to be apart from the body (for a time) UPON DEATH [of a believer]"... and how we are not EARNESTLY LONGING for THAT (no one is "earnestly desiring" DEATH)

--"CLOTHED UPON" refers to "being immediately CLOTHED UPON with our glorified bodies APART FROM having to DIE first"


Once you grasp these two definitions, you can see what Paul is actually conveying in this portion of the chpt... and where vv.2-4 (esp. v.4) is speaking IN PARTICULAR of the "we which are ALIVE [STILL-LIVING] and remain unto" where it says, "that MORTALITY might be swallowed up OF LIFE"--i.e. the "STILL-LIVING" members of the ONE BODY, at that point-in-time
(just as 1Cor15:52c/53b/54b "THIS MORTAL" is speaking of the "STILL-LIVING" ones;
whereas "THIS CORRUPTIBLE" vv.52b/53a/54a[51b "sleep"] speaks of "the DEAD IN Christ"--those who will have DIED prior to that particular point-in-time being referenced in each of these passages)

 

[pottersclay]

And now let's conclude why it is a pre trib rapture.

As we know our God is orderly and does not break his word.
There are 2 things that we see in revelation one is another harvest of souls. As I said untill the first fruits are presented no harvesting will be done.

Also take a look at chapter 5 of revelation..... What stand out is the trumpet shout as you see in the other chapters to follow are trumpets.
The next feast after pentecost is feast of trumpets.....do you think God would start another feast without finishing the previous?
In the words of the apostle paul....God forbid.

 

[Corban]

You NEED it to say certain things.

I compiled the ingredients.

That is the difference.

For example you theorize the wise "bought" oil.
Maybe so,but it DOES NOT SAY "HOW " they got it.
I do not NEED it to say that.
..but for you,you made some theory pivotal.

Then you try and theorize away the marriage and feast in heaven.

But Jesus said "I will not drink of the fruit of the vine again till I drink it anew with you in my fathers house "
Not only that but the bride has become the wife IN HEAVEN in rev 19.

Also at the last supper Jesus said other things tying the saints to heaven.(in that last supper betrothal like setting.)

Way too many things to just reframe.
Reframing verses has a motive

Brother, you need to forget heaven. Man was made from the earth, to be nourished by the earth and to subdue and rule THE EARTH (Gen.1:26-28). God has not changed His immutable councils. The Bible ends with New Jerusalem coming DOWN to the New ("Renewed" - lit Gk.) Earth and the rule is where Daniel said the everlasting Kingdom of our Lord would be - "it filled THE EARTH" (Dan.2:35; Rev.22:5).

And to save you going back to the Bible I will quote Matthew 26:29, Mark 14:25 and Luke 22:18:

"But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you IN MY FATHER'S KINGDOM."

It is NOT, as you say, "my Father's HOUSE!" Added to this, the "Father's House" is NEVER heaven. It is the Temple, Christ's Body and the Church (Jn.2:16, 21; 1st Tim.3:15).

You had also better check Revelation 19. It does not say that there is a wedding feast in heaven. It says blessed are the invited guests, and that the bride has made HERSELF ready. Immediately after this, these same guests leave heaven to fight Armageddon - not to Feast.

 

[pottersclay]

Now for my friends who think there's no physical millennium. The end of the appointed times the last feast is the feast of Tabernacles
This is also known as the booths.
This is where God comes to dwell with his people not his people to to dwell with him.

 

[pottersclay]

Agreed it is the same faith as David, Daniel, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John.

You see brother the rapture has to take place in order to bring in the feast of trumpets.
Which we see in rev 5. And remember no new harvest untill first fruits are presented to God.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

.....do you think God would start another feast without finishing the previous?
In the words of the apostle paul....God forbid.

pottersclay, may I ask, how do you view the following passage?

Luke 22:30,16,18 (esp. 16-18) -

"15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer: 16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God. 17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves: 18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come. [for this latter verse, compare with Matthew 26:29 "UNTIL THAT DAY when I drink it NEW with [G3326 - accompanying] you in My Father's kingdom"... and then compare v.30 (Lk22:30) with Matthew 19:28 (and then compare ITS TIMING with Matt25:31-34)]



What does it mean... "[not anymore eat THEREOF] UNTIL it be fulfilled in..." ... does this mean He WILL "eat thereof" again, at a certain point? And if so, what do you think that means (especially, time-wise... when)? and then, what does this mean for the "fulfilled" issue?


[I find the wording in Col2:16-17 interesting "which ARE [present tense] A SHADOW