Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.

[Chester]

Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is a calling from God. It is a physical thing that people go through.

You have the meaning of scripture mixed up in your head.

The scripture you quoted merely means that those who are saved, if they are circumcised, they can do the things their family of circumcised people do without retribution from God. And conversely, the uncircumcised who are saved do not need to become circumcised and start doing what the circumcised do.


The gift of prophecy, however, is a gift from God. In that regard it is irrevocable.

But you have to understand what prophecy is in order to understand 1 Corinthians 13:8 or just read a few verses further.

1 Corinthians 13:9-10
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

It is not saying that the gifts of God are being revoked here. It is saying that those gifts are completely redundant in the Presence of God.

Revelation 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

There is no need to say words that describe what the Lord Jesus will do when the Lord Jesus is right there doing it. It doesn't mean that the person given the gift of prophecy no longer has that gift. Its that that gift pales in comparison to the actual witness of what the Lord Jesus is doing.

What you are doing in relation to the circumcision question is arguing context: and you are exactly right. Context is critical. And I have no problem with your analysis of the prophecy issue either. Context is important.

That is why you cannot take the truth that salvation is a "gift" and choose another random verse from a completely different context that says gifts are irrevocable and use this as proof for a doctrinal belief which is then used to interpret the rest of the Word.

Just take a look at the context of the proof text verse: Romans 11:29

Romans 11
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

The context is the nation of Israel and the Gentiles

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Abiding in the vine is indicative of bearing fruit, not remaining saved.....!!

1. We can not attach ourselves to the vine, we have to be attached.
2. Once we are attached. We have to receive the power given through the vine to produce fruit. (We can’t just remain idle)
3. A vinedresser prunes or lifts up a vine (to get off ground) so that it is able to produce more fruit (this is the work of God. Not man)

What part of this can they not comprehend?

 

[Chester]

Edit:

Salvation is completely by faith alone apart from works!!!!

LOL! You said it - I didn't - you can "edit" the Word, I will just leave it at what it says!

Undergrace, I sure like your spirit and attitude - though we do not agree completely, you are great!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Saved people will not take it...the bible is clear....your argument is moot Gongshow!

Why would god make it harder for them to be saved then us??

Again People do not think

 

[Chester]

I can understand your reticence in answering. If you are in Christ, and He is in You, which you agree with, how can you ever NOT have Him in you, regardless what YOU do.

There are more, but why doesn't THIS passage serve to answer your long sought after question:
Romans 8:38-39 New King James Version (NKJV)
38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other CREATED THING, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Aren't YOU a created thing?

Exactly: I am in Christ and He is in Me - and nothing is able to separate me from the love of God - Why? because I am in Him and He is in Me - Hallelujah!

Am I a created being? No, I came about by Darwinian evolution! - Just kidding! - Yes, of course, I am a created being!

 

[UnderGrace]

LOL! You said it - I didn't - you can "edit" the Word, I will just leave it at what it says!

Undergrace, I sure like your spirit and attitude - though we do not agree completely, you are great!

I was thinking of the Reformers and how they made "faith alone" their central message..... when I went back and read it I was thinking that could be misunderstood, but it was too late to edit... LOL

I am glad someone appreciates me, that doesn't happen to often on here

 

[Chester]

I was thinking of the Reformers and how they made "faith alone" their central message..... when I went back and read it I was thinking that could be misunderstood, but it was too late to edit... LOL

I am glad someone appreciates me, that doesn't happen to often on here

And when the Reformers said "faith alone" they meant that we are saved by faith and not by works. And I have no problem with that understanding.

But I do not use the phrase saved by "faith alone" because it is not a Biblical term and when it is used it carries a weight or freight of meaning that is often unclear and can be unbiblical.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

John 15:6 King James Version (KJV)
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

If branch not bear fruit Will cast into fire/hell

So It is talking about salvation

John 15:
15 “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He [a]takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you[b] will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. 8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.

Its about fruit bearing, You can not ignore context.

Paul explains in 1 cor 12 what fire they are cast into. The fires of testing. If ones work endures he will recieve reward (for producing fruit) if ones work is burnt, he suffers loss. BUT HE HIMSELF IS SAVED EVEN AS THOUGH THROUGH FIRE.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I’m new to this conversation and I haven’t read the other posts due to the
length of the thread.

I think that for a true born again believer they cannot lose their salvation.
The reason being it that is it God who started the work in them, God who
continues the work in them and God who keeps them. If we had to
keep ourselves we would indeed be lost.

A testimony for you which is a great example of God keeping a hold onto us
rather than the other way around.

My elderly aunt who is now 84, has stage 4 COPD, on oxygen 24/7.
Moderate dementia
Chronic kidney disease
Plus other things.

She became a Christian many years ago but then had what use to be called
a nervous breakdown and stopped going to church. Over the years I have
often wondered about her salvation, she did continue to believe for sometime but
then got to where she refused to read the bible, said she couldn’t take it in.
Refused to pray, refused to let me tell her about the church services, and often
said things that made me wonder if she had given up on God.

Then she got older and sick including the dementia.
One night the other year I heard her crying in the middle of the night and got up
to check on her. She was sobbing her heart out and saying she was sorry for all the
trouble she had caused and wanted me to pray with her. Then she asked God for
forgiveness and said sorry to him.

It broke my heart and I was crying with her, but also ever so blessed to see her
first hand commit her life back to God.

Then I got up then next day and the confusion of dementia had returned.
I truly believe that God allowed her a moment of clarity and led her back to Him.
It was all God and certainly not either my aunts or my doing.

The prodigal child. Never stopped being the daughter

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Salvation also isnt an excuse to go " Gods blood covers my sins" So I can keep doing them. Gods Grace doesnt allow ungodliness or unholy lifestyles. Theres nothing wrong with Pleasing God and keeping his commands. It shows we actually love him. Gods grace is not a "Continue to sin" jail key. To say you can sin it up with no consequences. This seems more prideful to me. Showing no fear of the Lord

Please. Stop with the nonsense. True believers do not do this..

True believers are convicted and chastened by God. God will not allow it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So,

Repentence is sorrow and remorse over sin and turning away from sin

Metanoia is just simply changing one's mind

Yes, there's a big difference.

Wrong

Repentance is the english translation of the greek metanioa, Although people have added to the interpretation. It is not found in the greek. We MUST us the greek translation over any english translation. The english can not over rule the greek. Like many wish it to do.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Can you still be saved according to OSAS, even when you follow another Gospel?

I came to God 7 years ago. I believed in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. I said sorry "change of mind" for my sins. I believed in the imputed Righteousness of Christ, thought I was forgiven for my past present and future sins, had a relationship with Jesus.

When I came to Jesus on ______ lost the actual date, I was sealed with the holy spirit (A seal that cant be reversed).

I lived a lifestyle of ungodliness after I was saved, was I saved?

*Some on here tell me I wasnt saved(never saved to begin with).
But you then tell me I was sealed (A seal that cant be broken).

Why wasnt the holy spirit, doing the work in me for over 3 years?

Why did I bear absolutely no fruit with the holy spirit in me?

Am I still saved will following another Gospel?

You tell me I am sealed by the holy spirit (nothing can break that seal I received 7 years ago on that special day I came to jesus.

So am I saved still, even though I follow another Gospel now?.

If you follow another gospel. You are not saved period. Whether you believe in NOSAS or OSAS or whatever.

Please try to understand what people believe, is this to much to ask?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If we dont continue in Gods kindness we too will be cut off.

Romans 11:22 New International Version (NIV)
22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

Rom 11 in context is Jews vs Gentiles. How jews wer cut off, and if we as gentiles do not continue we will be cut of too.

Individual salvation is NOT in context here.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

James 2:14-26 New King James Version (NKJV)
Faith Without Works Is Dead
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does itprofit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

Some people believe the book of James doesnt apply for today

IF I CLAIM TO HAVE FAITH

James is not speaking to saved people who stoped working and lost salvation

It is speaking of people who CLAIM to have faith in Christ, yet are hearers only and not doers.

James is calling them a liar. Saying their faith was dead (non exisant) and thus did not save them at all.

Some people want to take this rebuke against licentious faith and use it to prove salvation can be lost. They are in error.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Who ever claimed Exodus 12:13 is a verse that refers to jesus blood COVERING YOUR SIN I refute you biblically.
Exodus 12:13 King James Version (KJV)
13 And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt.

Its talking about God protecting the isrealites from the punishments on Egypt, by (blood).
*No where does it say (JESUS) BLOOD.

It is symbolic

Not reality

I mean really?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So the seal was broken then

1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,

Some will depart from the faith.

Some = churches

We see this happening today. One would need to be blind to realize many older traditional chruches are departing from the faith, and things which those churches once stood for.

It is not talking about people

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Only the baddest sinners in OSAS are labeled with "Never saved to begin with".

People with small sins in OSAS are saved, but people with big sins in OSAS are unsaved. Even thought their both SEALED.

Actually according to God. Anyone who sins is lost. Apart from grace.

And according to NOSAS. They judge the worse sinners (adulterers and murderers) as people who are not saved. While excusing their sins as not really sins at all.

Once again, You are not understanding what grace believers truly believe, your trying to insert into you thinking what you THINK they believe, and you are wrong.

I mean, David was a prety bad sinner, As was abraham. As was many OT saints.

If what you say was true, OSAS people would declare them not saved, because they wer nto good enough (a legalistic term, no OSAS person believes ANYONE is good enough)

 

[UnderGrace]

Salvation also isnt an excuse to go " Gods blood covers my sins" So I can keep doing them. Gods Grace doesnt allow ungodliness or unholy lifestyles. Theres nothing wrong with Pleasing God and keeping his commands. It shows we actually love him. Gods grace is not a "Continue to sin" jail key. To say you can sin it up with no consequences. This seems more prideful to me. Showing no fear of the Lord

The Jews whom Paul was trying to teach were making the exact same arguments you have written above.

You slander grace and you make your self effort the winner.

Blaming the grace of God for sin is your perverted logic here....but you cannot see it can you?

Paul was not impressed and had some stern words of warning for them, dig deep into Romans and you will learn why your slander against grace is in fact the antithesis of the Gospel and why Paul made the statement below.

King James Bible
And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.

New Living Translation
And some people even slander us by claiming that we say, “The more we sin, the better it is!” Those who say such things deserve to be condemned.
Romans 3:8

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Both scriptures are true Some were of the faith and some weren't of the faith. Read them both Not just one.

John saids they were never saved, Period. John can not contradict himself. He wrote both passages.

If you want a bible that contradicts itself. Feel free. We will interpret the bible to make it one message, in 100% agreement.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times (some) will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,
1 John 2:19 New International Version (NIV)
19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

NOTICE THE WORD (SOME) in 1 Timothy 4:1.

Some,

1 John 2 says in reality some will depart. But they were never of us.

Not everyone who goes to church is saved. Was not true in Johns day, Pauls day, is not true today.