Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.

[Nat2019]

So the seal was broken then

1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,

Some will depart from the faith.

Only the baddest sinners in OSAS are labeled with "Never saved to begin with".

People with small sins in OSAS are saved, but people with big sins in OSAS are unsaved. Even thought their both SEALED.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

Yes brother, this is certainly a passage that has caused much introspection and even fear that pehaps I have willfully sinned.

But I think the answer, once revealed takes away the misinterpretation that can lead to a feeling of condemnation.

So first off we have to take a step back in this chapter, and even Book. What is "willful" sin? I don't think anyone would argue that willful sin is sin you commit knowing that it IS sin when you commit it. Well, wait a minute. I have certainly done that. In fact if everyone was honest with themselves they would admit that THEY have ALL done this. To say we haven't, delves into the sinless perfection doctrine we all know to be heretical.

So know we start to slice and dice between willful sin and garden variety sin, and just how many willful sins does one have to commit before Jesus' Blood doesn't atone.

No! There is a PARTICULAR willful sin that is going on here. The author is trying to convey that Christ is a ONCE, for ALL TIME Sacrifice for our sin. The guys in Hebrews, and especially Hebrews 10, were saying "Yeah, Jesus is Great and all that, but we STILL need to sacrifice bulls and goats, and sprinkle their blood to atone for our sins.. " THEY WERE INDEED TRODDING UNDERFOOT THE BLOOD OF CHRIST!!

THAT WAS THE "WILLFUL SIN" THEY WERE ENGAGING IN. In effect REJECTING Jesus and His Perfect Sacrifice.

You may agree with all that but say they were at one time saved. But this is a VERY important point.

Simply having a HEAD KNOWLEDGE of the Truth is NOT the same as BELIEVING the Truth. These people were NEVER Born again.

So they heard THE Gospel, they had knowledge of it, but by thinking they needed to CONTINUE to sacrifice animals for the atonement of their sins means they DIDN'T believe Jesus' Sacrifice was enough. They rejected THE Gospel. At that point there remains no Sacrifice for their sins since they rejected Christ.

There is a big jump in this presentation.
Wilful sin => rejecting Jesus => continuing in sacrifice for sins

The next step is doing good works is attempting to atone for sins so is wilful sin etc.

This view works if you remove behaviour matters to God, and only belief or trust remains.
It is such an alien concept to believers it takes time to truly comprehend. In this world no
matter how sinful one is, day in, day out, God only sees Jesus or rejection.

The real sub text is, I am ok in Jesus, secure and accepted above everything else, and this
drives the theology.

My subtext is I want to be like Jesus, and I want Him to blast away my failures and miss-understanding,
to walk like Him and be His servant. So I have no problem with His rebuke or correction, I desire it,
wherever possible, because in Him and the cross I am safe, yet I know I am far from perfect.

Sin, evil, kills us and those it touches. We are to have nothing to do with it, it is like the worst outcome
possible.

To listen to some, sin is just inevitable compromise and being human, so just know Jesus is ok with it,
until we meet Him at the end. When drugs, mental illness, adultery have ripped ones family apart, you
know this is insane language, the language of the enemy.

 

[PennEd]

So the seal was broken then

1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,

Some will depart from the faith.

Yep. Look no further than America. In general, America has departed from faith.
The passage you cite is talking on a MACRO level. Not that an INDIVIDUAL once believed and was saved and now no longer does.

 

[Nat2019]

Think about it.
If God was to just heal our afflictions like alcohol and gambling what use would be to others who struggle with it.

There is a difference between struggling with something and to not give two hoots.

To struggle with it means you do not want it.
So during those years the Holy Spirit is working.
Working to the point where we eventually allow God to deal with it.
By this I mean the cause of affect.
My addiction was caused by many facets.
So it was a release from the hurt and pain.
I also had a lot of unforgivness in my heart.
Before we can bear fruit the ground needs to be cultivated.
As a person who did the accounts of a farmer I was surprised by how much has to be done to prepare the ground to sow the seed.

So I said for those years I would say the Holy Spirit is working.
Bringing you to a place to bear fruit.
God's timing is perfect.

And as a result we can

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Walk in the good works prepared for us.
You can do that with people who have an alcohol addiction.
Like I do with people who have a gambling problem and have suffered sexual abuse.

I thank God he has healed you of your addiction.
Let those of us who suffered in such a way be the light to others and be willing to be used by God to impart the hope and knowledge that Jesus heals us.

I am bearing fruit now- since I changed gospels.

 

[BillG]

Salvation also isnt an excuse to go " Gods blood covers my sins" So I can keep doing them. Gods Grace doesnt allow ungodliness or unholy lifestyles. Theres nothing wrong with Pleasing God and keeping his commands. It shows we actually love him. Gods grace is not a "Continue to sin" jail key. To say you can sin it up with no consequences. This seems more prideful to me. Showing no fear of the Lord

Paul addressed this Romans 5-6

Using the grace of God as a licence to sin.
Only met two people like this.
Addressed Romans with them.
If they refuse the correction then time to shake the dust off our feet.
There is a difference between saying "I don't care I can sin all I want and still be saved" as opposed to "I am really struggling with this as and I need help"

 

[Nat2019]

Yep. Look no further than America. In general, America has departed from faith.
The passage you cite is talking on a MACRO level. Not that an INDIVIDUAL once believed and was saved and now no longer does.

That's your interpretation. Most things I put in scripture never apply for todays Christian's. So I am told.

 

[BillG]

I am bearing fruit now- since I changed gospels.

So am I.

I went from "I must do in order to saved and loved" to I will be what I am and that is a child of God, act as his child.

Your gospel is different than mine but I started to bear fruit when I jumped over the fence.

 

[OneOfHis]

So the seal was broken then

1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,

Some will depart from the faith.

Absolutely not.😏

1 John 2:19
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.


you should check out this
maybe it can help you understand

vvvv



John 15
1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.


there are two sorts of brances here


branches that bare fruit
_____
"every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit"
"He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit"


and branches void of any fruit
____
"If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned"
"As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself"


this whole thing is largely an example of the power of CHRIST in His own

compared to the lack of power in fakers

this was said after judas already betrayed Jesus and was said to make a point before the conclusion of the betrayal of judas
.....
this is about two separate sorts of men/women who claim to be in Him and are part of the congregation


nothing to do with how to earn or keep salvation

(it is a gift by grace through faith)

 

[Nat2019]

Hebrews 3:12-19
Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, (leading you to (fall away) from the living God). But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end. As it is said, “Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.” For who were those who heard and yet rebelled? Was it not all those who left Egypt led by Moses? ...

 

[Nat2019]

Absolutely not.😏

1 John 2:19
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.


you should check out this
maybe it can help you understand

vvvv



John 15
1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.


there are two sorts of brances here


branches that bare fruit
_____
"every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit"
"He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit"


and branches void of any fruit
____
"If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned"
"As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself"


this whole thing is largely an example of the power of CHRIST in His own

compared to the lack of power in fakers

this was said after judas already betrayed Jesus and was said to make a point before the conclusion of the betrayal of judas
.....
this is about two separate sorts of men/women who claim to be in Him and are part of the congregation


nothing to do with how to earn or keep salvation

(it is a gift by grace through faith)

Both scriptures are true Some were of the faith and some weren't of the faith. Read them both Not just one.

 

[Nat2019]

Both scriptures are true Some were of the faith and some weren't of the faith. Read them both Not just one.

1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times (some) will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,
1 John 2:19 New International Version (NIV)
19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

NOTICE THE WORD (SOME) in 1 Timothy 4:1.

 

[Nat2019]

Revelation 2:5 King James Version (KJV)
5 Remember therefore from whence thou art (fallen), and (repent), and do the (first works); or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

So am I.

I went from "I must do in order to saved and loved" to I will be what I am and that is a child of God, act as his child.

Your gospel is different than mine but I started to bear fruit when I jumped over the fence.

I think we are confusing different experiences.
"I must do in order to saved and loved"

Many would say "I must do because I am saved and loved and His love calls me on"

The variations of how we see what we are as sinners and saints, and how God works
through us and in us, though it appears His work is the same, our expressions vary.

A heart of flesh rather than a heart of stone seems to be the central difference.
The beginning of things becoming real, and slavery to sin being broken.

We also seem to fail projecting on to others, expecting their language to align with ours
before we listen to what they actually mean. So we easily end up condemning works of God
and approving of false teachers who are actually teaching heresy.

 

[Nat2019]

1 John 2:18-27 New International Version (NIV)
Warnings Against Denying the Son
18 Dear children, this is the (last hour); and as you have heard that the (antichrist is coming),even now many antichrists have come.This is how we know it is the (last hour). 19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.[a] 21 I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know itand because no lie comes from the truth.22 Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son.23 No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
24 As for you, see that what you have heard from the beginningremains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is what he promised us—eternal life.
26 I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. 27 As for you, the anointingyou received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.

 

[PennEd]

Revelation 2:5 King James Version (KJV)
5 Remember therefore from whence thou art (fallen), and (repent), and do the (first works); or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Yep. Not talking about losing Salvation here. Talking about losing an effective witness to illuminate others to Christ.


Let me ask you, have YOU sinned since you were saved? And if so, why aren't YOU lost?

 

[PennEd]

1 John 2:18-27 New International Version (NIV)
Warnings Against Denying the Son
18 Dear children, this is the (last hour); and as you have heard that the (antichrist is coming),even now many antichrists have come.This is how we know it is the (last hour). 19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.[a] 21 I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know itand because no lie comes from the truth.22 Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son.23 No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
24 As for you, see that what you have heard from the beginningremains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is what he promised us—eternal life.
26 I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. 27 As for you, the anointingyou received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.

This is relevant because ....... you felt like just posting Scripture?

 

[OneOfHis]

1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times (some) will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,
1 John 2:19 New International Version (NIV)
19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

NOTICE THE WORD (SOME) in 1 Timothy 4:1.

Why do you always use different translations to make your points as if you're trying to find wording which suits your beliefs better in almost every post?


Anyways I will pray for you, there are many loving and older brothers here to help you while I'm working...


I hope one day you learn the truth and stop leaning false doctrines of man....


Cherry picking verses without context and trying to make others imply what they do not will never get you truth.... you need to want what God wants you to see...

 

[Nat2019]

This is relevant because ....... you felt like just posting Scripture?

This relevant because a person on here.

Why do you always use different translations to make your points as if you're trying to find wording which suits your beliefs better in almost every post?


Anyways I will pray for you, there are many loving and older brothers here to help you while I'm working...


I hope one day you learn the truth and stop leaning false doctrines of man....


Cherry picking verses without context and trying to make others imply what they do not will never get you truth.... you need to want what God wants you to see...

I already saw it and so did you.

 

[Nat2019]

This relevant because a person on here.

I already saw it and so did you.

Do you like cherries

 

[PennEd]

Why do you always use different translations to make your points as if you're trying to find wording which suits your beliefs better in almost every post?


Anyways I will pray for you, there are many loving and older brothers here to help you while I'm working...


I hope one day you learn the truth and stop leaning false doctrines of man....


Cherry picking verses without context and trying to make others imply what they do not will never get you truth.... you need to want what God wants you to see...

It's crazy. It's almost as if they WANT it to be true that if THEY don't do X that their Heavenly Father will cast them into the lake of fire!

Why on earth don't they simply want to rest and rely on Jesus is beyond me.

I remember being in a place at one time thinking I could lose my Salvation. EVERY passage becomes fearful and full of self doubt about Salvation. But through revelation, and the kind leading of brothers and sisters, I see my Heavenly Father as GOOD, and merciful, and loving, and patient, and kind, and giving discipline and correction just like any GOOD GOOD FATHER!