Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
1,968
212
63
I had to do a double-take on this to make sure I read it correctly. Not even the liberal versions call that verse into question, which means that it's contained in not only the majority of the Textus Receptus manuscripts, but also the Alexandrian texts.

Wow. This is so bizarre. I had no idea there was anyone here who harbored this level of subjectivity to thus call into question a verse he doesn't personally like, but a verse that enjoys an entire spectrum of support from manuscript evidence.

This is a huge WOW!



After you having said what you stated above, and your not knowing when he wrote that epistle in relation to the revelation of the mystery that was revealed ONLY to Paul by Christ, I'm not at all surprised.



I would love to see you try to pull that off in Theology 101 class. Those kids would intellectually tear you to pieces in a debate...

MM
It's not a question of personal likes or dislikes. The passage in question is problematic on multiple levels, and this has been recognized over the centuries by church fathers and scholars. Some people do actually use their heads for something other than a hat rack, while others are viscerally skilled in making knee jerk reactions.

https://www.gotquestions.org/Mark-16-9-20.html
 
Feb 8, 2021
778
147
43
It's not a question of personal likes or dislikes. The passage in question is problematic on multiple levels, and this has been recognized over the centuries by church fathers and scholars. Some people do actually use their heads for something other than a hat rack, while others are viscerally skilled in making knee jerk reactions.

https://www.gotquestions.org/Mark-16-9-20.html
No doubt that some scholars and so-called church fathers have problems with various things in the Bible, but the manuscripts tell the story that rejection of the fact that Jesus stated what He said, I don't give a rat's petoot what they think because they don't have the original autographs against which to gauge the voracity of that passage, AND it's not true that everything stated in one gospel has to have corroboration in the others. That's a rule card played only when it's convenient.

MM
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
1,968
212
63
No doubt that some scholars and so-called church fathers have problems with various things in the Bible, but the manuscripts tell the story that rejection of the fact that Jesus stated what He said, I don't give a rat's petoot what they think because they don't have the original autographs against which to gauge the voracity of that passage, AND it's not true that everything stated in one gospel has to have corroboration in the others. That's a rule card played only when it's convenient.

MM
Like I said some people use their heads for something other than a hat rack. And then there are others like yourself.

There are good reasons why the vast majority of the major translations alert readers that the passage is controversial.
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
3,293
421
83
Okay...le'ts go with point number 1. What other Savior is there in this universe besides God?
Kings 2 13:5
(And the LORD gave Israel a saviour, so that they went out from under the hand of the Syrians: and the children of Israel dwelt in their tents, as beforetime.

Isaiah 19:20
And it shall be for a sign and for a witness unto the LORD of hosts in the land of Egypt: for they shall cry unto the LORD because of the oppressors, and he shall send them a saviour, and a great one, and he shall deliver them.
 
Feb 8, 2021
778
147
43
Like I said some people use their heads for something other than a hat rack. And then there are others like yourself.

There are good reasons why the vast majority of the major translations alert readers that the passage is controversial.
They do? I checked the NIV, and it says nothing, along with the ESV. Both of those are a couple of the most liberal there is. But, hey, you seem bent upon ad hominem, so it appears that we are through.

MM
 
Feb 8, 2021
778
147
43
Kings 2 13:5
(And the LORD gave Israel a saviour, so that they went out from under the hand of the Syrians: and the children of Israel dwelt in their tents, as beforetime.

Isaiah 19:20
And it shall be for a sign and for a witness unto the LORD of hosts in the land of Egypt: for they shall cry unto the LORD because of the oppressors, and he shall send them a saviour, and a great one, and he shall deliver them.
As an Israeli, I was taught that the Messiah, according to many Jew's interpretation of who the Messiah would be, they think the Messiah will be a great political figure sent from Yah. To many of them, the "savior" is the man who will set them up in their own kingdom, free from the rule and trampling of the Gentiles, and be Yah's representative upon the earth. They avoid Isaiah 53 and Zechariah 12, not wanting to even come close to any thought that Jesus was the One those references, and others, were speaking about.

MM
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
1,968
212
63
Kings 2 13:5
(And the LORD gave Israel a saviour, so that they went out from under the hand of the Syrians: and the children of Israel dwelt in their tents, as beforetime.

Isaiah 19:20
And it shall be for a sign and for a witness unto the LORD of hosts in the land of Egypt: for they shall cry unto the LORD because of the oppressors, and he shall send them a saviour, and a great one, and he shall deliver them.
And this "savior" or deliverer in the 2Ki passage saved the Children of Israel from their sins or some enemy?

And Isa 19 is prophecy of future destruction and restoration at the end of the age (see vv. 21-25).. Why can't the savior and defender who God sends be the Messiah? The passage is clearly talking about spiritual restoration.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
1,968
212
63
They do? I checked the NIV, and it says nothing, along with the ESV. Both of those are a couple of the most liberal there is. But, hey, you seem bent upon ad hominem, so it appears that we are through.

MM
If you had bothered to read the link I sent, you would have learned the reasons why Mk 16:9ff. is problematic. Also, both my NIV and ESV hard copies contain notes in them alerting readers to the questionable authenticity of the passage.
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
3,293
421
83
As an Israeli, I was taught that the Messiah, according to many Jew's interpretation of who the Messiah would be, they think the Messiah will be a great political figure sent from Yah. To many of them, the "savior" is the man who will set them up in their own kingdom, free from the rule and trampling of the Gentiles, and be Yah's representative upon the earth. They avoid Isaiah 53 and Zechariah 12, not wanting to even come close to any thought that Jesus was the One those references, and others, were speaking about.

MM
I was responding to Rufus' list of sloppy and technically ambiguous/inaccurate presuppositions, including that there is only one Savior in the universe. The Bible itself speaks of other Saviors. Savior (sOtEr, YaSha). Sloppy language leads to sloppy reasoning leads to unsound conclusions.
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
3,293
421
83
And this "savior" or deliverer in the 2Ki passage saved the Children of Israel from their sins or some enemy?
No, he didn't. But he was a Savior. You didn't specify one Savior from sins. If you want to build a case for some conclusion, you need to be more rigorous in your argumentation and make sure the that premises you are using to build toward your conclusions are sound. Otherwise, your conclusions will not be sound or convincing..
 
Feb 8, 2021
778
147
43
I was responding to Rufus' list of sloppy and technically ambiguous/inaccurate presuppositions, including that there is only one Savior in the universe. The Bible itself speaks of other Saviors. Savior (sOtEr, YaSha). Sloppy language leads to sloppy reasoning leads to unsound conclusions.
When you don't address who it is your talking to by way of quote, or at least addressing directly, it's nearly impossible to tell sometimes.

MM
 
Sep 18, 2024
8
2
3
So eternal life is not eternal life.

Thats good to know.

Gods promise that we will never die is not true

Again, Good to know

Gods promise that we will never hunger or thirst is not true

Again, good to know

Gods promise he WILl raise us on the last day is not true

His promise that we are sealed with the spirit UNTIL the day of redemption is not true

Its good to know All these things and other promised are not true, It would be so sad to have faith in God to keep his promises, only to later find out that non of those things are really true, and we will end up in hell anyway.
I rebuke you in the name of Jesus our Lord, lies and Blasphamy will not be tolerated any longer. In the name of the father, and the son, and the holy Spirit. Amen
 
Feb 8, 2021
778
147
43
Losing salvation under which Gospel:

Before the cross, the salvation Gospel message was repentance and baptism in water.

After the cross, the Gospel message changed, as revealed by Peter:

Acts 2:36-38
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
37 Now when they heard [this], they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men [and] brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The great mystery revealed to no other man until Christ revealed it to Paul was/is this:

1 Corinthians 15:1-4
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Paul did not preach the Kingdom Gospel where works were required, as preached by James in chapters one and two.

So, under the Kingdom Gospel, one COULD lose salvation:

James 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

James 2:14 What [doth it] profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

James 2:17-18
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

James 2:20-22
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

The Gospel of Grace, on the other hand:

Galatians 3:2-3
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.

Romans 3:27-28
27 Where [is] boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

So, if one has the faith of which Paul preached, originating from the mystery hidden in God from the creation of the world, that man is sealed unto salvation by Holy Spirit, not having to perform works or works of the Law to be counted righteous. Paul spoke the whole Gospel that applies to us today. The claim that the Gospel is the same all throughout, that is a denial of what the four Gospels themselves record, which never included the preaching of Christ crucified and raised on the third day, especially given that the disciples never once preached Christ crucified in those three years they went about preaching. So, no, the claim of the Gospel being the same all throughout is only a denial of the clear reading of scripture for what it says.

MM
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
1,968
212
63
No, he didn't. But he was a Savior. You didn't specify one Savior from sins. If you want to build a case for some conclusion, you need to be more rigorous in your argumentation and make sure the that premises you are using to build toward your conclusions are sound. Otherwise, your conclusions will not be sound or convincing..
Oh...I thought that since you profess to be a Christian that when talk of "savior" arises your mind would automatically think of the ONE and ONLY who COULD save your soul -- or perhaps even think of these kinds of verses:

Isa 43:11
11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

KJV

Hos 13:4
4 "But I am the LORD your God,
[who brought you] out of Egypt.
You shall acknowledge no God but me,
no Savior except me.

NIV

Acts 4:12
12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."

NIV

My bad. I should have known better than to make assumptions with people like yourself.

So, now that we both know there is only ONE savior of souls in the universe, what other item on my 8-point list would you like to challenge?