Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.

[Beckworth]

All who abide in Christ bear fruit only because they have been ordained to do so by Jesus Christ - it is not from the will of man,
although on the surface for those who don't look deeper, it may seem that it is.
Those who do not abide in Christ are removed because they were not of those so ordained. It is entirely of God not of man.


[Jhn 15:16 KJV]
16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and [that] your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Jesus is speaking to his apostles! Read the context all the way back to chapter 13:22 and through chapter 15. Most of the things he says in these chapters can be applied to everyone but some cannot. Like verse 27, Jesus says “you have been with me from the beginning.” Have YOU BEEN WITH Jesus from the beginning of His ministry?? No it’s his apostles he is meaning. Likewise in verse 16, He DID choose them— each and everyone of them literally. That does not mean he chooses each person that believes in him except in a very broad sense through the gospel. He says we are CALLED By the gospel. Are you a Calvinist? That means you are a follower of the MAN John Calvin. He believed in Predestination where God literally chooses the ones He is going to save and they have nothing to do with their salvation and can’t be lost regardless of what they do while others God does NOT choose and they can’t be saved no matter how much they may want to. 1John 2:2 says Jesus died for the WHOLE WORLD thus proving this a false doctrine. JESUS DIED FOR ALL PEOPLE not just the “elect” according to John Calvin.

 

[rogerg]

the parable your quoting has no relation that’s a parable of how when we accept the gospel of the kingdom and we persevere in faith we will bear fruit , if we let the things in tbe world stop us from that we will never bear fruit

The message regarding the true branches was meant for His chosen disciples. If this were not the case, there would be a specific verse where Christ indicated that He was addressing only the non-apostles, and another where He signaled that He was no longer addressing them. Similarly, there would be a verse where He signaled the apostles that He was beginning to address only them. Otherwise, how would they know who He was speaking to? IMHO, no such verses exist in that chapter.

In John 15:8, it is stated that the Father is glorified because He enabled His disciples (apostles and others), to bear abundant fruit. This was achieved through God's will power and not by their own.

[Jhn 15:8 KJV]
8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

 

[Beckworth]

Again, you have Simon in charge of his salvation. If he repents, he stays saved.

Why do you see it as prescriptive as opposed to descriptive? In other words, why is it people have to repent to remain saved but not that they repent because they are saved or don't because they are not?

Because the Bible does not teach that people can only repent if they are already saved. Show me the scripture that says that. Peter told the Jews in Acts 2 to repent and they were not saved! They were the ones who crucified Jesus! It does not matter what you think about Simon’s ability to repent, the fact remains that had he NOT repented like Peter said, he would have Perished! ( death and destruction). It doesn’t even make sense that people who are saved and can’t be lost would need to repent —or perish. They can’t be saved and perish at the SAME TIME!

Yes, Simon is in charge of losing his salvation if he doesn’t repent in Acts 8 according to Peter the apostle or maintaining his salvation by Abiding in Christ and keeping His commandments according to John 15. Either way it’s up to the individual. He is the one who has to decide what he is going to do. God did NOT say, you don’t have to abide in me because I will not let you leave and he did not say you don’t have to repent because you are saved anyway and can’t perish. But that is what YOU are saying, and it’s clearly NOT what the Bible is teaching in these passages.

 

[rogerg]

Jesus is speaking to his apostles! Read the context all the way back to chapter 13:22 and through chapter 15. Most of the things he says in these chapters can be applied to everyone but some cannot. Like verse 27, Jesus says “you have been with me from the beginning.” Have YOU BEEN WITH Jesus from the beginning of His ministry?? No it’s his apostles he is meaning. Likewise in verse 16, He DID choose them— each and everyone of them literally. That does not mean he chooses each person that believes in him except in a very broad sense through the gospel. He says we are CALLED By the gospel. Are you a Calvinist? That means you are a follower of the MAN John Calvin. He believed in Predestination where God literally chooses the ones He is going to save and they have nothing to do with their salvation and can’t be lost regardless of what they do while others God does NOT choose and they can’t be saved no matter how much they may want to. 1John 2:2 says Jesus died for the WHOLE WORLD thus proving this a false doctrine. JESUS DIED FOR ALL PEOPLE not just the “elect” according to John Calvin.

I am a follower of the Bible alone. I believe in predestination because the Bible informs us of that.
Predestination is the only way salvation can be by grace, otherwise, it must be by works. There is no
third alternative.

He is speaking to His disciples in John, which included the apostles. Where in John do you find "apostle"
mentioned anywhere? If it is there, please provide the verse.
In 13:22 He is speaking to His disciples.
Christ laid His life down only for His friends - not for everyone - not everyone was/is His friend.
His disciples were those who were with Him from the beginning.

[Jhn 15:8, 13 KJV]
8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

[Jhn 13:22 KJV] 22 Then the disciples looked one on another, doubting of whom he spake.

 

[Beckworth]

Amen the Bible is informing us so we know what to choose and live and warning us of what is certain death

“Roman’s 6 is talking to Christian’s who according to verses 3-4 had been baptized into Christ.”

“We can choose who we will be slaves to. “
Amen We can choose who we are going to serve willingly now


“Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.

In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires.

Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:3-4, 6-7, 11-13‬ ‭NIV‬‬

No one can force us to make that choice and decision we have to come to it freely because we believe what we’re being taught .


we’re being taught so we can choose life
You really nailed Roman’s 6 it continues through half of chapter 8

Amen!! Good points! Let God be true and every man a liar.

 

[Cameron143]

Because the Bible does not teach that people can only repent if they are already saved. Show me the scripture that says that. Peter told the Jews in Acts 2 to repent and they were not saved! They were the ones who crucified Jesus! It does not matter what you think about Simon’s ability to repent, the fact remains that had he NOT repented like Peter said, he would have Perished! ( death and destruction). It doesn’t even make sense that people who are saved and can’t be lost would need to repent —or perish. They can’t be saved and perish at the SAME TIME!

Yes, Simon is in charge of losing his salvation if he doesn’t repent in Acts 8 according to Peter the apostle or maintaining his salvation by Abiding in Christ and keeping His commandments according to John 15. Either way it’s up to the individual. He is the one who has to decide what he is going to do. God did NOT say, you don’t have to abide in me because I will not let you leave and he did not say you don’t have to repent because you are saved anyway and can’t perish. But that is what YOU are saying, and it’s clearly NOT what the Bible is teaching in these passages.

You missed my point. There are some passages of scripture that merely describe, not prescribe.

 

[Lafftur]

I believe the Bible is clear enough on this issue.

"If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us" 2 Timothy 2:12 KJV

What part of this Verse do you not understand? I myself am 100 %ly sure that salvation loss is possible.

Your theory is based on us doing “works”….. that absolutely does NOT compute with GRACE….and faith in the works of Jesus Christ ALONE. Our works are filthy rags.

 

[Beckworth]

I am a follower of the Bible alone. I believe in predestination because the Bible informs us of that.
Predestination is the only way salvation can be by grace, otherwise, it must be by works. There is no
third alternative.

He is speaking to His disciples in John, which included the apostles. Where in John do you find "apostle"
mentioned anywhere? If it is there, please provide the verse.
In 13:22 He is speaking to His disciples.
Christ laid His life down only for His friends - not for everyone - not everyone was/is His friend.
His disciples were those who were with Him from the beginning.

[Jhn 15:8, 13 KJV]
8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

[Jhn 13:22 KJV] 22 Then the disciples looked one on another, doubting of whom he spake.

Where is the scripture that teaches predestination. (according to John Calvin’s definition of predestination? )
Where is the scripture that says predestination is the only way salvation can be by grace. This is only according to YOU. You need scriptural proof. John Calvin is not proof that it is true. It’s a man made doctrine and Jesus condemns the doctrines and commandments of men.

Because you have been listening to men instead of studying your Bible, you think ALL WORKS are bad. That is not true. John 6:28-29 says that there are works of God. Faith is a WORK! And so is any other thing that God has commanded us to do.

That's a good question.

If one cannot earn salvation, then neither can one possess the power to nullify the sealing of Holy Spirit and the Blood of Christ.

When we read about "falling from grace" in context:

Galatians 5:1-6
1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Paul was speaking to people who were yet outside of faith, and still looking for be justified by works, especially in the Law. He is not at all talking to people who were walking by faith, but rather those trapped in works-based things such as circumcision.

So, again, do you really think that you have the power to break the bonds of Holy Spirit, sealed unto salvation, and have you ever desired as a saved person to try and earn your salvation in any way?

If not, then we're in agreement. To say that there are others out there who were once people of faith and who now believe that they must earn it, I would have to say that those are some VERY confused people indeed, and would also have to ask how you even know that they were or are in such a state?

When it really comes down to it, the claims for losing eternal salvation, so far as I have seen, fall upon absolutely no experience whatsoever, rendering it all just an intellectual exercise based upon no insights whatsoever, and misrepresentations of what scripture is saying.

Thanks for your feedback.

MM

You are so wrong about the people Paul is writing to in the book of Galations. 1:2 Paul is writing to the CHURCHES in Galatia. To the Christian’s in those churches. In verse 6 He says they are TURNING AWAY from God who called them in the grace of Christ —to a different gospel — a PERVERTED gospel of Christ.. They had been saved in the grace of Christ, but they were TURNING AWAY. His whole letter is trying to bring these people BACK TO CHRIST. These Christians were going Back to the old JEWISH law of Moses instead of remaining in the law of liberty, the law of faith which IS in Christ. He started in chapter 2 saying that a man is not justified by the law of Moses verse 15. He said in verse 4 that FALSE BRETHERN had come into the church trying to get them to give up the liberty that they have in Christ and go back to the old law which was called a law of bondage. Chapter 3:13 he says they had been redeemed by Christ from the curse of the old law. Redeemed means they were saved. Verse 26 he says they are ALL SONS OF GOD, baptized into Christ, put on Christ and they were all one in Christ. Chapter 4 verse 9 he says they KNEW GOD AND WERE KNOWN BY GOD. He called them “BRETHREN.” In verse 12.and verse 28. In verse 21 he says they are “desiring” to be under the old law so in chapter 5 he says to stand fast in the “liberty” by which Christ has made them free. That’s when he says, “You have become ESTRANGED FROM CHRIST (separated from Christ), you who attempt to be justified by (the old) law, YOU HAVE FALLEN FROM GRACE.”

YOU said “Paul was speaking to people yet outside of faith.” Not true at all as we have seen in the scriptures. You seem to fail to realize that those Christians HAD TO BE IN GRACE BEFORE THEY COULD FALL FROM IT.

You really should read before the verse and after the verse before you take a verse out of its context.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Your theory is based on us doing “works”….. that absolutely does NOT compute with GRACE….and faith in the works of Jesus Christ ALONE. Our works are filthy rags.

“For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age,

while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.

These, then, are the things you should teach. Encourage and rebuke with all authority. Do not let anyone despise you.”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭2:11-15‬ ‭NIV‬‬

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

I believe the Bible is clear enough on this issue.

"If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us" 2 Timothy 2:12 KJV

What part of this Verse do you not understand? I myself am 100 %ly sure that salvation loss is possible.

The biblical warnings about it should be a clue. "Life in the Son" by Robert Shank is a good study on the subject.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Amen!! Good points! Let God be true and every man a liar.

Some hear this

“Now therefore why should we die? for this great fire will consume us: if we hear the voice of the LORD our God any more, then we shall die.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭5:25‬ ‭KJV‬‬

But the truth is

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭

“He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:48-50‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:45‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:31-32‬ ‭

“Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.”
‭‭John‬ ‭18:37‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“if so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: that ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

and be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

and that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭4:21-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: that they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.”
‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭2:9-12‬ ‭

 

[Lafftur]

In regards to predestination… The Path of Life is predestined to end in Life. The Path of Death is predestined to end in Death.

We get to choose with our God given freewill which path we want… Life or Death.

Those that choose Life are predestined to Life. Those that reject Life, choose Death and are predestined for Death.

Our choices matter! Make the right choice.

Jesus Christ is LIFE.

Anything that is not Jesus Christ is Death.

There is NO other choice on the table.

I choose Life. Amen. I choose Jesus Christ.

 

[Beckworth]

When you read what scripture actually says, it is the branch Israel that was cut off and cast aside for the time because of the lost souls among them who were not circumcised spiritually, and who were in rejection of Messiah. Those passages are Christ speaking to ISRAEL, not the Church, for the Church did not even exist at that time.

MM

There is not a word in this whole discourse about “Israel”. From chapter 13 through chapter 17 He is talking to His disciples. How can you just make these things up? Don’t you read the text?

Once again, in 15:2, He says “EVERY BRANCH IN ME”. These are people “IN CHRIST” that He is talking to. It’s the branch IN him that He TAKES AWAY. In verse 3 He says they are already CLEAN because of the word that He has spoken to them. In verse 4 they are ALREADY IN HIM according to verse 2 so He says STAY IN ME! Abide in me! Don’t leave. You can’t bear fruit unless you are in me. He is talking to His disciples, He is talking to SAVED PEOPLE. Anyone who can read can easily see that He is not talking to “Israel.” I never said He was talking to the church. My point is He is talking to BELIEVERS-saved people. And if they don’t STAY in Christ they will go to hell. So He says in verse 6. That is what Jesus is saying. Read it again.

 

[posthuman]

There is not a word in this whole discourse about “Israel”. From chapter 13 through chapter 17 He is talking to His disciples.

... which happen to all be Jews at the time...

 

[Beckworth]

I am a follower of the Bible alone. I believe in predestination because the Bible informs us of that.
Predestination is the only way salvation can be by grace, otherwise, it must be by works. There is no
third alternative.

He is speaking to His disciples in John, which included the apostles. Where in John do you find "apostle"
mentioned anywhere? If it is there, please provide the verse.
In 13:22 He is speaking to His disciples.
Christ laid His life down only for His friends - not for everyone - not everyone was/is His friend.
His disciples were those who were with Him from the beginning.

[Jhn 15:8, 13 KJV]
8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

[Jhn 13:22 KJV] 22 Then the disciples looked one on another, doubting of whom he spake.

It is a mistake to take one verse all by itself and not the whole Bible. YOU said and I quote, “ Christ laid down His life ONLY for His friends - not for everyone.” Not true!
—-2 Corinthians 5:15 says that “CHRIST DIED FOR ALL.”
——Roman’s 5:6- “CHRIST DIED FOR THE UNGODLY.”
——Roman’s 5:8- WHILE WE WERE SINNERS, CHRIST DIED FOR US..”
Psalms 119:160 says all of your word is righteousness. The SUM of your word is truth. You have to take EVERYTHING God says and put it all together. Don’t take 1 verse out and ignore all the rest of the Bible.

Yes, I know Jesus was speaking to His disciples. What is your point? Does this have something to do with the subject of showing a child of God can be lost? Yes, I referred to them as apostles instead of disciples. Are you saying his disciples were not called apostles? Does that make what I said a lie? I can read about Thomas, Judas, Andrew, Phillip, Peter and John by name in just a few chapters preceding John 15 (haven’t looked through the whole book) and they all became apostles so I dont know how it was wrong to call them that even though they might not have been called that until later—it was the same people. If I misled anyone by doing that , I apologize.

 

[Beckworth]

... which happen to all be Jews at the time...

Yes, all of His disciples were Jews but not all of the Jews were His disciples.

 

[Magenta]

Roman’s 6 is talking to Christian’s who according to verses 3-4 had been baptized into Christ. He says in verse 6 that they had been @slaves to sin”. But they were “NO LONGER SLAVES TO SIN.” Paul says they HAD BEEN SLAVES TO SIN. If they did not have “free will” they could not have CHANGED FROM SLAVES OF SIN TO SLAVES OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, could they? According to your comment, we don’t have Free will”. But that’s ridiculous because if we don’t have “free will” to choose who we will serve, then we could NEVER CHOOSE TO BE SERVANTS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS . We have to always be SERVANTS OF SIN because we were slaves to sin first before we became slaves to righteousness. How WERE WE ABLE TO CHANGE??? If we did not have “free will” to choose something else? It’s our “free will” that enables us to choose who we want to serve—sin or righteousness.
I f you try to remove “free will” from the human race then you have destroyed the whole gospel of Christ. It’s only because we have “free will” that we can choose to believe or NOT believe and we all know there were lots of people in the Bible who chose NOT to believe in Jesus as the Christ. All of those who crucified Him did not believe Hecwas the son of God. Did they have no choice?? If they didn’t have free will then it was not their fault because they couldn’t choose. The same goes with ALL of the gospel of Christ. The WHOLE BIBLE PROVES WE HAVE FREE WILL. We can choose who we will be slaves to. The passage you gave only proves that—not that we don’t have free will.

According to the Bible, we do not have free will. Being enabled to choose is not the same as saying
your will is free to choose anything it wants. You overlook the fact that the devil has people enslaved
to his will. Such people are incapable of choosing to do God's will... unless you want to tell us that
the devils' will is the same as God's, hmmmm??? Choose to believe? You cling to a tradition of man.

 

[Magenta]

Jesus’ words in John 6:65

 

[rogerg]

Where is the scripture that teaches predestination. (according to John Calvin’s definition of predestination? )

I don't know what Calvin's definition is. I am not a follower of Calvin, only the Bible

 

[Musicmaster]

Let’s look at John 10:22-31. the argument has been made on this site that the saved cannot be lost because Jesus says in verse 28 that He gives His sheep eternal life and no one is able to snatch them out of His hand. That is absolutely true. However, that does not mean that WE cannot remove OURSELVES from His hand. As long as we have “free will” we can choose to “abide” in Him or leave. There is no scripture that teaches or shows that God has taken “free will” away from us . If so, let’s see it. Proverbs 1:23 says that they did not “CHOOSE” the way of the Lord. We have always had a choice to stay or leave. God has never forced anyone to serve Him. If you are saved, you are free to leave anytime but God has warned us and told us what will happen if we do. Like John 15–He makes eternal salvation our reward AS LONG AS WE ABIDE IN HIM. It’s NOT dependent on our bearing fruit—He says we WILL bear fruit as long as we are abiding in Him— it’s dependent on our choice to STAY or “abide”. With him. Don’t be deceived into believing you can’t FALL AWAY from Christ. Hebrews 6:4-6 tells us plainly we CAN FALL AWAY. Galations 5:4 says we are FALLEN FROM GRACE. 1 Corinthians 10:12- “Let him who thinks he stands (is saved) take heed lest he FALL.”
—2 Peter 3:17- “BEWARE, Lest you also FALL FROM YOUR OWN STEADFASTNESS. God could not make it any plainer—a “steadfast” Christian can FALL ( from grace) and Lose his salvation.
I think it very fitting that just before Peter tells us we can FALL, he says that “untaught” and “unstable” people will TWIST the scriptures to their own destruction.

You certainly have amazing confidence in man's abilities. I do not share in your enthusiasm for any belief whereby mankind is imbued with such power.

My question still stands: When have you ever walked away from your salvation? Whom have you ever known to have left their salvation behind?

If one is going to claim the possibility, then he must provide experience or have insight into the hearts of others on the level of Deity, and I have doubts that you possess either the power to walk away from your salvation, and I have doubts that anyone else can do so either.

MM