Why do Christians believe in a place of torment called Hell?

[de-emerald]

That's the fire of Hades not the fire of the lake of fire. The fire of the lake of fire destroys the person completely.

then there must be confusion with other scripture some where. the fire of hades says no body can go in there and no one one will leave there 25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

personaly i dont agree with this scripture it just doesnt feal right eternal punishment forever and ever and the heavens hearing there crys but tormenting them some more, there may be missing scripture here.

 

[Runningman]

What does Mark 9 mean?

47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

It says this several times in this chapter.

What is "their worm" that does not die?

Isn't this their consciousness?

It says the worms don't die. Doesn't say anything about people not dying.

I speculate that hell has a steady supply of fresh occupants which continually replenish the food source for these worms and sustain their population.

I've also seen it said in Bible commentaries that the word 'hell" used in the New Testament is derived from the word Gehenna which was apparently a garbage dump, near Jerusalem, in the past. I'm assuming it's symbolic of the real place of hell, but the worms might be a reference to bugs eating garbage.

Good question. Hard to imagine immortal worms in hell.

 

[Runningman]

No, the first death is when the human body dies. The second death is after a resurrection and the person is cast into the lake of fire which is when the "body and soul are destroyed in hell".

.

That makes sense. Thanks for clarifying that. Helps enhance my study of this.

 

[AandW]

The smoke ascends forever.

No rest day or night does not iimply the days and nights continue without end.

Read it carefully. It just doesn't say the torment itself never ends.

The Verse specifies [that they] have no rest day/night.
The phrase of words [that they] indicate the ones being tormented, not the torment itself.

 

[Runningman]

The Verse specifies [that they] have no rest day/night.
The phrase of words [that they] indicate the ones being tormented, not the torment itself.

To me it sounds like the writer made every effort to say they aren't tormented forever or he could have just added "they'll be tormented forever." Easy and clear.

I don't think God was being intentionally vague, though.

"And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night,"

What I read is that the smoke, the fumes, rise forever. Tempting to say they live forever, but I don't see that in the text.

Also, it doesn't say they have no rest day/night forever. It doesn't say if this is one day/night cycle, two, or a million. It doesn't specify.

I think saying this torment lasts forever without the possibility of ending is an interpretation. It's like a projection of what we expect into the words of the scriptures.

I think I see your train of thought here, but I don't see anywhere where it says the torment is forever. Just my thoughts.

 

[AandW]

To me it sounds like the writer made every effort to say they aren't tormented forever or he could have just added "they'll be tormented forever." Easy and clear.

I don't think God was being intentionally vague, though.

"And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night,"

What I read is that the smoke, the fumes, rise forever. Tempting to say they live forever, but I don't see that in the text.

Also, it doesn't say they have no rest day/night forever. It doesn't say if this is one day/night cycle, two, or a million. It doesn't specify.

I think saying this torment lasts forever without the possibility of ending is an interpretation. It's like a projection of what we expect into the words of the scriptures.

I think I see your train of thought here, but I don't see anywhere where it says the torment is forever. Just my thoughts.

But that Verse is talking about people who Opposed His Chosen throughout the Old Testament. That Verse is talking about Satan and the Holy Angels who became Fallen in status. That Verse covers the act of death because there is no more need for dying. That Verse covers graves that held the dead, there will be no more need and requirement of them. A lot of things beside the people who mislead, dealt treacherously with the Chosen Hebrew People will be in that unfortunate setting, including from Christ till now. But it is a necessary setting that was never intended for any Creation of God.

 

[ewq1938]

Heb_12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

G2654
?ata?a??´s??
katanalisko¯
kat-an-al-is'-ko
From G2596 and G355; to consume utterly: - consume.

compare that to this:


Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

G622
a?p?´???µ?
apollumi
ap-ol'-loo-mee
From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.


to consume utterly
to destroy fully

Both speak about fire which can fully destroy/consume something...the fire of a star is very hot, but that man can recreate the same temperatures in welding makes me think the fire of "hell" is something far stronger/hotter.




Fire represents a destructive force. This lake of fire won't be normal fire as we can create ourselves. I believe it to be God himself since God is a consuming fire. So God can create something, and can uncreate something as well. I believe the lake of fire is simply an uncreating process described in a way simple so people could understand it's basic function- destruction.



There was a time none of us existed. God has decided that the bad, wicked, evil etc etc of us should return to that non-existence. There is a fire which is unlike any fire man knows which will be used to destroy souls which essentially and definitively uncreates them.

Psalms 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.


There is only one kind of eternal life, and that is with God as overcomers judged to life. Those judged to death on judgment day, which is called the second death, will not have eternal life in hell or torment. Their punishment is death and that punishment will last for all eternity. They shall not live eternally in agony because they shall not have eternal life of any kind.




Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Here only the Devil is said to be tormented day and night for ever. The beast and false prophet are there but that isn't directly said to also apply to them but either way we can't assume “day and night forever and ever” is literal:


Isa 34:8 For it is the day of the LORD'S vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.
Isa 34:9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch.
Isa 34:10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.

Isaiah uses similar language concerning Edom and Edom is not still burning. This is an intentional exaggeration and should be understood in that way just as Rev 20:10 should be.

Another example:

Exo 21:6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.

Not literally forever of course. It simply means "a long time", ie: the rest of his life, an intentional exaggeration.

Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Sodom and Gomorrha are not still burning therefore this eternal fire does not imply the target burns eternally but that this fire exists eternally whether it has something to burn or not and since God is a consuming fire it makes sense that it is eternal because God is eternal.



And look at how many scriptures refute the idea of eternal life in hell fire:



"The soul that sinneth, it shall die." Ezekiel 18:4.

"He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." Revelation 2:11

"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." Revelation 20:14,15.

"The earth and all the inhabitants thereof are dissolved." Psalm 75:3.

"Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more." Psalm 104:35.

"Consume them in wrath, consume them, that they may not be." Psalm 59:13.

"The Lord preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy." Psalm 145:20

"When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever: Psalm 92:7

"For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be as stubble; and the day cometh that shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch." Malachi 4:1

"And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the LORD shall be consumed." Isaiah 1:28

"Enter ye in at the straight gate: for wide is the fate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat." Matthew 7:13

"But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away." Psalms 37:20

Judgment is a decision to reward or punish someone. The judgement/punishment for sin is death (Romans 6:23), which is also called the second death (Rev 21:8), and that judgement/punishment is written to be eternal/everlasting (Mark 3:29, Hebrews 6:2). So, eternal punishment is an eternal death.



Two things happen to the wicked. First they will die the second death which means soul and body dies and then their soul and body shall be destroyed.


Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


Here we have death of the soul likened to destruction of the soul. One cannot be destroyed without dying so the two go hand in hand. While the Greek word here can mean several things, we know from other scriptures esp. the OT which has only one meaning for "destruction" being literal destruction, that this word here means:

apollumi
Thayer Definition:
1)to destroy
1a)to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin
1)to destroy
1b)render useless
1c)to kill
1d)to declare that one must be put to death
1e) metaphorically to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell
1f) to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed
2) to destroy
2a) to lose
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G575 and the base of G3639
Citing in TDNT: 1:394, 67

 

[ewq1938]

Psalms 145:20 The LORD preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy.

The verb above is in the Hiphil tense:
H8045
????
sha^mad
BDB Definition:
1) to destroy, exterminate, be destroyed, be exterminated
1a) (Niphal)
1a1) to be annihilated, be exterminated
1a2) to be destroyed, be devastated
1b) (Hiphil)
1b1) to annihilate, exterminate
1b2) to destroy
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: a primitive root
Same Word by TWOT Number: 2406




Lets use the same logic some apply. We know that our preservation by the Lord shall be eternal, known as salvation or eternal life then the opposite for the wicked would be eternal death and destruction right? Not to be preserved to suffer eternal torture!



Isaiah 1:27 Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness.
Isaiah 1:28 And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the LORD shall be consumed.


Here the same concept. All sinners judged and consumed at the same time which cannot be anything other than the final judgement.


The punishment for sin is death (Romans 6:23), which is also called the second death (Rev 20, 21), and that judgement/decision (also called damnation) is written to be eternal/everlasting (Mark 3:29, Hebrews 6:2).


Psalms 92:7 When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever:


Some teach that God will not do as he says.


Psalms 37:16 A little that a righteous man hath is better than the riches of many wicked.
Psalms 37:17 For the arms of the wicked shall be broken: but the LORD upholdeth the righteous.
Psalms 37:18 The LORD knoweth the days of the upright: and their inheritance shall be for ever.
Psalms 37:19 They shall not be ashamed in the evil time: and in the days of famine they shall be satisfied.
Psalms 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

Do they perish, consumed away in smoke or do they live forever in torture?? Scripture is clear!


Psalms 145:20 The LORD preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy.


Psalms 104:35 Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the LORD, O my soul. Praise ye the LORD.


Isaiah 1:27 Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness.
Isaiah 1:28 And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the LORD shall be consumed.

Isaiah 1:29 For they shall be ashamed of the oaks which ye have desired, and ye shall be confounded for the gardens that ye have chosen.
Isaiah 1:30 For ye shall be as an oak whose leaf fadeth, and as a garden that hath no water.
Isaiah 1:31 And the strong shall be as tow, and the maker of it as a spark, and they shall both burn together, and none shall quench them.



2 Peter 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;



Hebrews 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Hebrews 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Hebrews 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Hebrews 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Hebrews 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.


Jeremiah 6:27 I have set thee for a tower and a fortress among my people, that thou mayest know and try their way.
Jeremiah 6:28 They are all grievous revolters, walking with slanders: they are brass and iron; they are all corrupters.
Jeremiah 6:29 The bellows are burned, the lead is consumed of the fire; the founder melteth in vain: for the wicked are not plucked away.
Jeremiah 6:30 Reprobate silver shall men call them, because the LORD hath rejected them.

Why are they wicked?

Jeremiah 6:27 I have set thee for a tower and a fortress among my people, that thou mayest know and try their way.
Jeremiah 6:28 They are all grievous revolters, walking with slanders: they are brass and iron; they are all corrupters.
Jeremiah 6:29 The bellows are burned, the lead is consumed of the fire; the founder melteth in vain: for the wicked are not plucked away.
Jeremiah 6:30 Reprobate silver shall men call them, because the LORD hath rejected them.



They are corrupt and God has rejected them.


Psalms 37:16 A little that a righteous man hath is better than the riches of many wicked.
Psalms 37:17 For the arms of the wicked shall be broken: but the LORD upholdeth the righteous.
Psalms 37:18 The LORD knoweth the days of the upright: and their inheritance shall be for ever.
Psalms 37:19 They shall not be ashamed in the evil time: and in the days of famine they shall be satisfied.
Psalms 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.



The righteous ones will be saved but those unrighteous will be consumed away.


2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2 Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

They wouldn't receive the truth to be saved so they shall be destroyed!

2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2 Thessalonians 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


Those that had pleasure in unrighteousness and received not the truth shall perish and be damned.


Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2851&t=KJV

1) correction, punishment, penalty

The lexicon there says the word punishment in this verse means "correction, punishment, penalty" not firery torment. As I have been saying, the kind of "correction, punishment, penalty" inflicted is unnamed in this verse but is given many places elsewhere as both death and destruction.



The righteous are not sinless but they repent and love God and believe upon Christ and that is counted righteous and though all are wicked in some sense, it is only those who love unrighteousness, who do not love God, who don't repent and don't follow Christ that shall be destroyed.


Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Matthew 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.



The way to destruction is wide and the majority will be destroyed. Only a minority will find the way to life.



Heb_2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

Even the devil will be destroyed.

Eze 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
Eze 28:19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

He will be devoured by fire, turned to ashes and shall never exist anymore. That's Annihilation.


"Ye shall surely not die."


Satan said that sin would not lead to death and he lied. Now we have a doctrine that also teaches that a life of sin will not lead to eternal death.

 

[Tinkerbell725]

What does Mark 9 mean?

47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

It says this several times in this chapter.

What is "their worm" that does not die?

Isn't this their consciousness?

But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
Psalm 22:6 KJV


Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Matthew 23:33 KJV


And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Daniel 12:2 KJV


Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Ephesians 2:3 KJV


In the resurrection on judgement day the children of wrath/serpents/generation of vipers will transform to be like their father satan and they will have the same destiny to burn in hell for all eternity.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

Then why does Jesus state that God destroys both body and soul in Gehenna...if those who reject him aren't destroyed completely? I don't think he was lying.

Humans consist of 3 parts -body, soul & spirit.
Eternal imprisonment of the spirit is the torment.
Not a system of torture until annihilation by Satan & demons.
Satan will be imprisoned as well.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

Someone has to have the gospel preached to them and then a chance to reject it in order to fall under God's judgment. I believe this is what Jesus taught as well.

Romans 10:14-15
14How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

2 Thessalonians 2:10-12
10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

1 Peter 4:6
6For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

It is my belief that where (& when) The Gospel is not heard, The Holy Spirit does the work in men's hearts to bring them the choice. I think everyone gets a chance. There must be many who have died without hearing the good news in written or spoken form.

 

[BrokenSparrow]

It says the worms don't die. Doesn't say anything about people not dying.

I speculate that hell has a steady supply of fresh occupants which continually replenish the food source for these worms and sustain their population.

I've also seen it said in Bible commentaries that the word 'hell" used in the New Testament is derived from the word Gehenna which was apparently a garbage dump, near Jerusalem, in the past. I'm assuming it's symbolic of the real place of hell, but the worms might be a reference to bugs eating garbage.

Good question. Hard to imagine immortal worms in hell.

Thanks for the answer. I suppose it could be as you say and just mean a literal "worm".

Many believe that it is not an actual "worm" but something that is attached to the individual because it says "their" worm which seems to denote something personal. It could just be speculation, though, I suppose.

It is quoted from Isaiah 66:

22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.

23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.

24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

So I guess, the question here is if this statement is literal or figurative. We know literal worms die and are usually not referred to as or attributed personally to an individual. Instead of using "their" worm it would more commonly be said "the worm" if it was being used literally.

 

[TheLearner]

I don' think it does. Also from Isaiah: They are now dead, they live no more; their spirits do not rise.

And, yet everyone in Isaiah 14 is in the grave and are aware when someone enters the grave.

Thus they sleep like we do at night when we are tired and awake during the day hours like we do.

They simply have no knowledge of what is going on on earth. That is what Isaiah 14 is plainly saying.

 

[Magenta]

And, yet everyone in Isaiah 14 is in the grave and are aware when someone enters the grave.

Thus they sleep like we do at night when we are tired and awake during the day hours like we do.

They simply have no knowledge of what is going on on earth. That is what Isaiah 14 is plainly saying.

Taking poetic literature literally is a mistake. The dead know nothing.

 

[TheLearner]

2 Thessalonians 1:9
These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

Hebrews 6:2
of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment.

Matthew 25:46
These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

Daniel 12:2
Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to
everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

The eternal punishment, judgement is destruction of both body and soul = 2nd death... forever after.

One must be alive to experience contempt and disgrace. The Hebrew Grammar makes that so --- as does English. Context Matters.
Otherwise contempt and disgrace has no meaning.

Exodus 18:11
Now I know that the Lord is greater than all the gods, because he did this when the Egyptians treated the Israelites with such contempt.”

This is the closet translation in English of what the Hebrew really is saying.


Daniel 12:2

Easy-to-Read Version
There are many who are dead and buried. Some of them will wake up and live forever, but others will wake up to shame and disgrace forever.

Daniel 12
Easy-to-Read Version
12 “Daniel, at that time the great prince Michael will stand up. Michael is in charge of your people. There will be a time of much trouble, the worst time since nations have been on earth. But Daniel, at that time every one of your people whose name is found written in the book of life will be saved. 2 There are many who are dead and buried.[a] Some of them will wake up and live forever, but others will wake up to shame and disgrace forever. 3 The wise people will shine as bright as the sky. Those who teach others to live right will shine like stars forever and ever."

"

con·tempt
/kənˈtem(p)t/
Learn to pronounce
noun
the feeling that a person or a thing is beneath consideration, worthless, or deserving scorn.
"he showed his contempt for his job by doing it very badly"
Similar:
scorn
disdain
disrespect
deprecation
disparagement
denigration
opprobrium
odium
obloquy
scornfulness
derision
mockery
ridicule
disgust
loathing
detestation
abhorrence
hatred
contumely
Opposite:
respect
disregard for something that should be taken into account.
"this action displays an arrogant contempt for the wishes of the majority"
Similar:
disrespect
disregard
slighting
neglect
contumacy
Opposite:
respect
the offense of being disobedient to or disrespectful of a court of law and its officers.
plural noun: contempts; noun: contempt of court; plural noun: contempts of court
"when he was found to have lied to the House this was a contempt"
https://www.google.com/search?q=con...ZYBiAGcApIBAzAuMpgBAKABAqABAQ&sclient=gws-wiz

The Greek Grammar of 2 Thess 1:9 does not allow for your interpretation.

"
Verse 9
Who (οιτινες). Qualitative use, such as. Vanishing in papyri though surviving in Paul (1 Corinthians 3:17; Romans 1:25; Galatians 4:26; Philippians 4:3).

Shall suffer punishment (δικην τισουσιν). Future active of old verb τινω, to pay penalty (δικην, right, justice), here only in N.T., but αποτινω once also to repay Philemon 1:19. In the papyri δικη is used for a case or process in law. This is the regular phrase in classic writers for paying the penalty.

Eternal destruction (ολεθρον αιωνιον). Accusative case in apposition with δικην (penalty). This phrase does not appear elsewhere in the N.T., but is in IV Macc. 10:15 τον αιωνιον του τυραννου ολεθρον the eternal destruction of the tyrant (Antiochus Epiphanes). Destruction (cf. 1 Thessalonians 5:3) does not mean here annihilation, but, as Paul proceeds to show, separation

from the face of the Lord (απο προσωπου του κυριου) and from the

glory of his might (κα απο της δοξης της ισχυος αυτου), an eternity of woe such as befell Antiochus Epiphanes. Αιωνιος in itself only means age-long and papyri and inscriptions give it in the weakened sense of a Caesar's life (Milligan), but Paul means by age-long

the coming age in contrast with

this age , as

eternal as the New Testament knows how to make it. See on Matthew 25:46 for use of αιωνιος both with ζωην, life, and κολασιν, punishment."
https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/eng/rwp/2-thessalonians-1.html


Ruin is the closest English word for destruction in 2 Thessalonians 1:9. If something is destroyed it ends completely. The destruction, Ruin in 2 Thess from the grammar is ongoing forever.

2 Thessalonians 1:9
Easy-to-Read Version
9 They will be punished with a destruction that never ends. They will not be allowed to be with the Lord but will be kept away from his great power.

Again, context matters as does grammar.

Hebrews 6:2
Easy-to-Read Version
6 So we should be finished with the beginning lessons about Christ. We should not have to keep going back to where we started. We began our new life by turning away from the evil we did in the past and by believing in God. That’s when we were taught about baptisms,[a] laying hands on people, the resurrection of those who have died, and the final judgment. Now we need to go forward to more mature teaching.

"
Verse 2
The other four items are qualitative genitives with διδαχην (βαπτισμων, επιθεσεως χειρων, αναστασεως νεκρων, κριματος αιωνιου). The plural βαπτισμων "by itself does not mean specifically Christian baptism either in this epistle (Hebrews 9:10) or elsewhere (Mark 7:4), but ablutions or immersions such as the mystery religions and the Jewish cultus required for initiates, proselytes, and worshippers in general" (Moffatt). The disciples of the Baptist had disputes with the Jews over purification (John 3:25). See also Acts 19:2. "The laying on of hands" seems to us out of place in a list of elementary principles, but it was common as a sign of blessing (Matthew 19:13), of healing (Mark 7:32), in the choice of the Seven (Acts 6:6), in the bestowal of the Holy Spirit (Acts 8:17; Acts 19:6), in separation for a special task (Acts 13:3), in ordination (1 Timothy 4:14; 1 Timothy 5:22; 2 Timothy 1:6). Prayer accompanied this laying on of the hands as a symbol. The resurrection of the dead (both just and unjust, John 5:29; Acts 24:15) is easily seen to be basal (cf. 1 Corinthians 15:0) as well as eternal judgment (timeless and endless)."

https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/eng/rwp/hebrews-6.html


A final or ongoing judgment requires the person to still be alive otherwise, the text loses meaning.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Spirits don't get "destroyed".
They just end up somewhere, after the body dies and the Spirit is released from the body.
If born again, = Heaven
If not, then you end up with the Devil and His angels., who do not get "destroyed".

Hell/Lake of Fire, are not where you go to be destroyed.

Here is what you need to add into your concept of Hell/LOFire, regarding the Great White Throne Judgement and the Lamb's book of Life.

All that happens to the unbeliever's Spirit after death releases it from the body....., is that they are allowed to go, after they die, where they chose to Go when they were on earth.

See, Heaven or Hell, is a eternal destination....= is a choice we make here on earth.
Jesus said...>"you must be born again"..........or ....
So, what you decide to do about that determines where your spirit ends up after you DIE.
A person choses where they are going to end up in the end, spiritually, ........based on......"born again" or not on earth.

This isn't "hateful God burning people".
This is , "i didnt choose to be born again, so, God allows you to go where the Christ Rejectors and the Devil and his angels end up.

Its really that simple.

See, the Christ rejectors remain "children of the devil", and they go to the place "prepared for the devil and His angels".

Hello Kidron,

Just fyi, it is not the spirits alone that are cast into the lake of fire. Both the righteous and the wicked will receive resurrected bodies. The word 'anastasis' translated as 'resurrection' means to stand up again in a physical body. As I'm sure that you already know, when the Lord appears to gather His church, those who have died will resurrect in the same bodies albeit immortal and glorified. Then the living in Christ will be transformed immortal and glorified and will be caught up with them to meet the Lord in the air. At the end of the thousand years, all of the spirits of the unfaithful who have gone down into Hades will be released and will receive a resurrected body mete for their eternal punishment in the lake of fire.

"and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked."

"And there were open books, and one of them was the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their deeds, as recorded in the books. The sea gave up its dead, and Death and Hades gave up their dead, and each one was judged according to his deeds."

 

[TheLearner]

Isaiah 14:9-11

Contemporary English Version


This relates to the King of Babylon, no one here on this board until you die. James 2:26 separation of body and soul, spirit.

9 The world of the dead
eagerly waits for you.
With great excitement,
the spirits of ancient rulers
hear about your coming.
10 Each one of them will say,
“Now you are just as weak
as any of us!
11 Your pride and your music
have ended here
in the world of the dead.
Worms are your blanket,
maggots are your bed.”


Isaiah 14:9-11

King James Version



9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.

Isaiah 14 proves beyond doubt that people in the grave are like us, sleeping at times and awake at times.

 

[TheLearner]

You got that all wrong.

If we're talking about the word "destroy" in Matthew 10:28 then the translators used an accurate English word.

Furthermore, G575 is not the Greek word being used in Matthew 10:28, it's G622. Matthew 10:28 supports annihilation.

G622. apollumi
Strong's Concordance
apollumi: to destroy, destroy utterly
Original Word: ἀπόλλυμι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: apollumi
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-ol'-loo-mee)
Definition: to destroy, destroy utterly
Usage: (a) I kill, destroy, (b) I lose, mid: I am perishing (the resultant death being viewed as certain).


Strong's Lexicon of Matthew 10:28:
https://biblehub.com/strongs/matthew/10-28.htm

"
Verse 28
Destroy both soul and body in hell (κα ψυχην κα σωμα απολεσα εν γεεννη). Note "soul" here of the eternal spirit, not just life in the body. "Destroy" here is not annihilation, but eternal punishment in Gehenna (the real hell) for which see on Matthew 5:22. Bruce thinks that the devil as the tempter is here meant, not God as the judge, but surely he is wrong. There is no more needed lesson today than the fear of God."
https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/eng/rwp/matthew-10.html

10:28 And 2532 fear 5399 5676 575 not 3361 them which 3588 kill 615 5723 the body 4983, but 1161 are 1410 0 not 3361 able 1410 5740 to kill 615 5658 the soul 5590: but 1161 rather 3123 fear 5399 5676 him which 3588 is able 1410 5740 to destroy 622 5658 both 2532 soul 5590 and 2532 body 4983 in 1722 hell 1067.
http://www.godrules.net/library/kjvstrongs/kjvstrongsmat10.htm

"

1. 1) to destroy
   1a) to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin
   1b) render useless
   1c) to kill
   1d) to declare that one must be put to death
   1e) metaph. to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell
   1f) to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed
   2) to destroy
   2a) to lose"
2. http://www.godrules.net/library/strongs2b/gre622.htm

 

[Ahwatukee]

That's the fire of Hades not the fire of the lake of fire. The fire of the lake of fire destroys the person completely.

It's not called "Everlasting Fire" for nothing! The lake of fire is never ending.

===================================================================
And a third angel followed them, calling out in a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, he too will drink the wine of God’s anger, poured undiluted into the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented in fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment rises forever and ever. Day and night there is no rest for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”
================================================================================================

The words "forever and ever" and "Day and night" express on-going never ending torment in the lake of fire. One can't experience torment in flame day and night unless they exist.

"And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

The word 'aionios' translated as 'eternal' is used to describe the eternal state for both the righteous and the wicked. Therefore, the word must retain the same meaning for both. And since with know that eternal life is never ending existence in the kingdom of God, then eternal punishment is never ending existence in separation from God in the lake of fire. You can't have one meaning annihilation and the other mean forever.

 

[Ahwatukee]

then there must be confusion with other scripture some where. the fire of hades says no body can go in there and no one one will leave there 25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

personaly i dont agree with this scripture it just doesnt feal right eternal punishment forever and ever and the heavens hearing there crys but tormenting them some more, there may be missing scripture here.

Good day, de-emerald!

ewq1938 is correct in that, the Abraham, Lazarus and the rich man were all in Hades, as it states right in the context.

Sheol/Hades is a temporary place of punishment in flame for those who die in their sins which is located underneath the earth. At the end of the thousand years, all of the spirits in Hades will be released and will receive a resurrected body mete for punishment in the lake of fire.

26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

None of the unrighteous dead can leave Hades to go back upon the earth to warn anyone. However, at the end of the thousand years, when the great white throne judgment takes place, those spirits in Hades will be released and will receive resurrected bodies and will stand before God and be judged at the GWTJ. You gotta leave room for other scriptures in order to come to a right conclusion.