Why do Christians believe in a place of torment called Hell?
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Yes, you are correct.
Acceptance of Jesus in your heart repenting your sins and being baptized are prequisites to bring into heaven. You must also live in the nature of love I described as well.
I was coming from the angle of separation from God's love leads to damnation. Rather than acceptance leads to salvation. Your point is of course 100% correct though
Acceptance of Jesus in your heart repenting your sins and being baptized are prequisites to bring into heaven. You must also live in the nature of love I described as well.
I was coming from the angle of separation from God's love leads to damnation. Rather than acceptance leads to salvation. Your point is of course 100% correct though
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Hi @Sakla this is such a diffacult subject to understand, theres so many reasons why, but one i feal that goes unchecked, is do we really mean something to be forever when we punish the people we love, who upset us. Its so easy to say i dont love you anymore, or i hate you, or i will never trust you again. but do you stay that way forever. i think if you did stay in that state of mind all day, all you would talk about is hate. this is not healthy. Where told self control is a fruit of the spirit and we must totaly forgive those who sin against us. Well that would mean praying for healing for those who have sinned against us.
The biggest root of polution to our spirit is bitterness which is a root of unforgiveness. we can not be unforgiving forever, The best friends you have are those who accept you for who you are right.
We also have to look at eternity in the mind of the holy spirit is much more complex than the thought process of eternity in the mind of humans. How many time as a covenant been changed in our bible ?. I Believe it is the enemy who wants to punish people forever not the holy spirit.
Hi @Sakla this is such a diffacult subject to understand, theres so many reasons why, but one i feal that goes unchecked, is do we really mean something to be forever when we punish the people we love, who upset us. Its so easy to say i dont love you anymore, or i hate you, or i will never trust you again. but do you stay that way forever. i think if you did stay in that state of mind all day, all you would talk about is hate. this is not healthy. Where told self control is a fruit of the spirit and we must totaly forgive those who sin against us. Well that would mean praying for healing for those who have sinned against us.
The biggest root of polution to our spirit is bitterness which is a root of unforgiveness. we can not be unforgiving forever, The best friends you have are those who accept you for who you are right.
We also have to look at eternity in the mind of the holy spirit is much more complex than the thought process of eternity in the mind of humans. How many time as a covenant been changed in our bible ?. I Believe it is the enemy who wants to punish people forever not the holy spirit.
One can only demonstrate what is in an after life by using divine revelations. As for those who came back from the dead. There are also testimonies of those who came back from the dead that contradict Christian beliefs. It is more likely, those who have experienced death and came back are simply reflecting their cultural biases.
2 Corinthians 12
New International Version
Paul’s Vision and His Thorn
12 I must go on boasting. Although there is nothing to be gained, I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord. 2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows. 3 And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows— 4 was caught up to paradise and heard inexpressible things, things that no one is permitted to tell. 5 I will boast about a man like that, but I will not boast about myself, except about my weaknesses. 6 Even if I should choose to boast, I would not be a fool, because I would be speaking the truth. But I refrain, so no one will think more of me than is warranted by what I do or say, 7 or because of these surpassingly great revelations. Therefore, in order to keep me from becoming conceited, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. 8 Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. 9 But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me. 10 That is why, for Christ’s sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.
Ephesians 4:4-13
J.B. Phillips New Testament
Christians should be at one, as God is one
4 1-6 As God’s prisoner, then, I beg you to live lives worthy of your high calling. Accept life with humility and patience, making allowances for each other because you love each other. Make it your aim to be at one in the Spirit, and you will inevitably be at peace with one another. You all belong to one body, of which there is one Spirit, just as you all experienced one calling to one hope. There is one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God, one Father of us all, who is the one over all, the one working through all and the one living in all.
God’s gifts vary, but it is the same God who gives
7-8 Naturally there are different gifts and functions; individually grace is given to us in different ways out of the rich diversity of Christ’s giving. As the scripture says: ‘When he ascended on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts to men’.
9-10 (Note the implication here—to say that Christ “ascended” means that he must previously have “descended”, that is from the height of Heaven to the depth of this world. The one who made this descent is identically the same person as he who has now ascended high above the very Heavens—that the whole universe from lowest to highest might know his presence.)
11-13 His “gifts to men” were varied. Some he made his messengers, some prophets, some preachers of the Gospel; to some he gave the power to guide and teach his people. His gifts were made that Christians might be properly equipped for their service, that the whole body might be built up until the time comes when, in the unity of the common faith and common knowledge of the Son of God, we arrive at real maturity—that measure of development which is meant by the “fullness of Christ”.
Jesus rose from the dead. He also came from Heaven when he came to earth in the first place. Who better to know about the afterlife?
Philippians 2:5-11
J.B. Phillips New Testament
Let Christ be your example of humility
5-11 Let Christ himself be your example as to what your attitude should be. For he, who had always been God by nature, did not cling to his prerogatives as God’s equal, but stripped himself of all privilege by consenting to be a slave by nature and being born as mortal man. And, having become man, he humbled himself by living a life of utter obedience, even to the extent of dying, and the death he died was the death of a common criminal. That is why God has now lifted him so high, and has given him the name beyond all names, so that at the name of Jesus “every knee shall bow”, whether in Heaven or earth or under the earth. And that is why, in the end, “every tongue shall confess” that Jesus Christ” is the Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
2 Corinthians 12
New International Version
Paul’s Vision and His Thorn
12 I must go on boasting. Although there is nothing to be gained, I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord. 2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows. 3 And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows— 4 was caught up to paradise and heard inexpressible things, things that no one is permitted to tell. 5 I will boast about a man like that, but I will not boast about myself, except about my weaknesses. 6 Even if I should choose to boast, I would not be a fool, because I would be speaking the truth. But I refrain, so no one will think more of me than is warranted by what I do or say, 7 or because of these surpassingly great revelations. Therefore, in order to keep me from becoming conceited, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. 8 Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. 9 But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me. 10 That is why, for Christ’s sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.
Ephesians 4:4-13
J.B. Phillips New Testament
Christians should be at one, as God is one
4 1-6 As God’s prisoner, then, I beg you to live lives worthy of your high calling. Accept life with humility and patience, making allowances for each other because you love each other. Make it your aim to be at one in the Spirit, and you will inevitably be at peace with one another. You all belong to one body, of which there is one Spirit, just as you all experienced one calling to one hope. There is one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God, one Father of us all, who is the one over all, the one working through all and the one living in all.
God’s gifts vary, but it is the same God who gives
7-8 Naturally there are different gifts and functions; individually grace is given to us in different ways out of the rich diversity of Christ’s giving. As the scripture says: ‘When he ascended on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts to men’.
9-10 (Note the implication here—to say that Christ “ascended” means that he must previously have “descended”, that is from the height of Heaven to the depth of this world. The one who made this descent is identically the same person as he who has now ascended high above the very Heavens—that the whole universe from lowest to highest might know his presence.)
11-13 His “gifts to men” were varied. Some he made his messengers, some prophets, some preachers of the Gospel; to some he gave the power to guide and teach his people. His gifts were made that Christians might be properly equipped for their service, that the whole body might be built up until the time comes when, in the unity of the common faith and common knowledge of the Son of God, we arrive at real maturity—that measure of development which is meant by the “fullness of Christ”.
Jesus rose from the dead. He also came from Heaven when he came to earth in the first place. Who better to know about the afterlife?
Philippians 2:5-11
J.B. Phillips New Testament
Let Christ be your example of humility
5-11 Let Christ himself be your example as to what your attitude should be. For he, who had always been God by nature, did not cling to his prerogatives as God’s equal, but stripped himself of all privilege by consenting to be a slave by nature and being born as mortal man. And, having become man, he humbled himself by living a life of utter obedience, even to the extent of dying, and the death he died was the death of a common criminal. That is why God has now lifted him so high, and has given him the name beyond all names, so that at the name of Jesus “every knee shall bow”, whether in Heaven or earth or under the earth. And that is why, in the end, “every tongue shall confess” that Jesus Christ” is the Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Please excuse me for editing your post, as I did love it all, finding it very sincere and incredibly touching (as are many if not all of your posts)... but it is simply this I wish to respond to here, for I find it interesting that the dead (who know nothing) are always referred to as being dead, and you have eloquently and quite succinctly described the condition (born in Adam) and pointed to the solution: the need to be born again of the Holy Spirit of God (Jesus said, "You must be born again.") to attain to life ever after. Through such a rebirth and being sealed unto the day of redemption, when the perishable clothes itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality via the indwelling of God's indestructible eternal Holy Spirit and the fulfilment of His promises following the resurrection and judgment of all, the dead, who have always been dead, pass into the second death in the Lake of Fire, from which there is no return, and hell is also thrown into the LoF, as well as death itself, for as Scripture says, death is the last enemy to be destroyed.
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Note on Matthew 25:46
Verse 46
Eternal punishment (κολασιν αιωνιον). The word κολασιν comes from κολαζω, to mutilate or prune. Hence those who cling to the larger hope use this phrase to mean age-long pruning that ultimately leads to salvation of the goats, as disciplinary rather than penal. There is such a distinction as Aristotle pointed out between μωρια (vengeance) and κολασις. But the same adjective αιωνιος is used with κολασιν and ζωην. If by etymology we limit the scope of κολασιν, we may likewise have only age-long ζωην. There is not the slightest indication in the words of Jesus here that the punishment is not coeval with the life. We can leave all this to the King himself who is the Judge. The difficulty to one's mind about conditional chastisement is to think how a life of sin in hell can be changed into a life of love and obedience. The word αιωνιος (from αιων, age, αεςυμ, αε) means either without beginning or without end or both. It comes as near to the idea of eternal as the Greek can put it in one word. It is a difficult idea to put into language. Sometimes we have "ages of ages" (αιωνες των αιωνων).
In short, Robertson is pointing out if you limit eternal for punishment you have put the same limit on eternal for life.
If one is destroyed on one side than eternal life also ends on the other side. From the grammar there is no way around this.
I Cor 15 discusses the body that the resurrected gets. Yes, in context Paul is addressing the body of the righteous. make up wise both goats and sheep are made up of the same stuff. Likewise, the resurrect body would also be made up of the same stuff which can not be destroyed unless God destroys them in a special act.
Verse 46
Eternal punishment (κολασιν αιωνιον). The word κολασιν comes from κολαζω, to mutilate or prune. Hence those who cling to the larger hope use this phrase to mean age-long pruning that ultimately leads to salvation of the goats, as disciplinary rather than penal. There is such a distinction as Aristotle pointed out between μωρια (vengeance) and κολασις. But the same adjective αιωνιος is used with κολασιν and ζωην. If by etymology we limit the scope of κολασιν, we may likewise have only age-long ζωην. There is not the slightest indication in the words of Jesus here that the punishment is not coeval with the life. We can leave all this to the King himself who is the Judge. The difficulty to one's mind about conditional chastisement is to think how a life of sin in hell can be changed into a life of love and obedience. The word αιωνιος (from αιων, age, αεςυμ, αε) means either without beginning or without end or both. It comes as near to the idea of eternal as the Greek can put it in one word. It is a difficult idea to put into language. Sometimes we have "ages of ages" (αιωνες των αιωνων).
In short, Robertson is pointing out if you limit eternal for punishment you have put the same limit on eternal for life.
If one is destroyed on one side than eternal life also ends on the other side. From the grammar there is no way around this.
I Cor 15 discusses the body that the resurrected gets. Yes, in context Paul is addressing the body of the righteous. make up wise both goats and sheep are made up of the same stuff. Likewise, the resurrect body would also be made up of the same stuff which can not be destroyed unless God destroys them in a special act.
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Isaiah 14 proves that the dead are alive. The proof text for knows nothing has to do with not knowing what is going on on this side of the grave.
Isaiah 14
A Song About the King of Babylon
4 At that time you will begin to sing this song about the king of Babylon:
The king was cruel when he ruled us,
but now his rule is finished.
5 The Lord breaks the scepter of evil rulers;
he takes away their power.
6 In anger, the king of Babylon beat the people.
He never stopped beating them.
He was an evil ruler who ruled in anger.
He never stopped hurting people.
7 But now, the whole country rests and is quiet.
Now the people begin to celebrate.
8 You were an evil king,
and now you are finished.
Even the pine trees are happy.
The cedar trees of Lebanon rejoice.
They say, “The king chopped us down,
but now the king has fallen,
and he will never stand again.”
9 The place of death is excited
that you are coming.
Sheol is waking the spirits
of all the leaders of the earth for you.
Sheol is making the kings stand up
from their thrones to meet you.
10 They will make fun of you, saying,
“Now you are as dead as we are.
Now you are just like us.”
11 Your pride has been sent down to Sheol.
The music from your harps announces the coming of your proud spirit.
Maggots will be the bed you lie on,
and other worms will cover your body like a blanket.
Isaiah 14:4-11
Good News Translation
4 When he does this, they are to mock the king of Babylon and say:
“The cruel king has fallen! He will never oppress anyone again! 5 The Lord has ended the power of the evil rulers 6 who angrily oppressed the peoples and never stopped persecuting the nations they had conquered. 7 Now at last the whole world enjoys rest and peace, and everyone sings for joy. 8 The cypress trees and the cedars of Lebanon rejoice over the fallen king, because there is no one to cut them down, now that he is gone!
9 “The world of the dead is getting ready to welcome the king of Babylon. The ghosts of those who were powerful on earth are stirring about. The ghosts of kings are rising from their thrones. 10 They all call out to him, ‘Now you are as weak as we are! You are one of us! 11 You used to be honored with the music of harps, but now here you are in the world of the dead. You lie on a bed of maggots and are covered with a blanket of worms.’”
Isaiah 14
A Song About the King of Babylon
4 At that time you will begin to sing this song about the king of Babylon:
The king was cruel when he ruled us,
but now his rule is finished.
5 The Lord breaks the scepter of evil rulers;
he takes away their power.
6 In anger, the king of Babylon beat the people.
He never stopped beating them.
He was an evil ruler who ruled in anger.
He never stopped hurting people.
7 But now, the whole country rests and is quiet.
Now the people begin to celebrate.
8 You were an evil king,
and now you are finished.
Even the pine trees are happy.
The cedar trees of Lebanon rejoice.
They say, “The king chopped us down,
but now the king has fallen,
and he will never stand again.”
9 The place of death is excited
that you are coming.
Sheol is waking the spirits
of all the leaders of the earth for you.
Sheol is making the kings stand up
from their thrones to meet you.
10 They will make fun of you, saying,
“Now you are as dead as we are.
Now you are just like us.”
11 Your pride has been sent down to Sheol.
The music from your harps announces the coming of your proud spirit.
Maggots will be the bed you lie on,
and other worms will cover your body like a blanket.
Isaiah 14:4-11
Good News Translation
4 When he does this, they are to mock the king of Babylon and say:
“The cruel king has fallen! He will never oppress anyone again! 5 The Lord has ended the power of the evil rulers 6 who angrily oppressed the peoples and never stopped persecuting the nations they had conquered. 7 Now at last the whole world enjoys rest and peace, and everyone sings for joy. 8 The cypress trees and the cedars of Lebanon rejoice over the fallen king, because there is no one to cut them down, now that he is gone!
9 “The world of the dead is getting ready to welcome the king of Babylon. The ghosts of those who were powerful on earth are stirring about. The ghosts of kings are rising from their thrones. 10 They all call out to him, ‘Now you are as weak as we are! You are one of us! 11 You used to be honored with the music of harps, but now here you are in the world of the dead. You lie on a bed of maggots and are covered with a blanket of worms.’”
The word eternal is not in front of death. It is in front of penal infliction:--punishment, torment.
http://www.godrules.net/library/kjvstrongs/kjvstrongsmat25.htm
25:46 And 2532 these 3778 shall go away 565 5695 into 1519 everlasting 166 punishment 2851: but 1161 the righteous 1342 into 1519 life 2222 eternal 166.
Word: kolasij
Pronounce: kol'-as-is
Strongs Number: G2851
Orig: from 2849; penal infliction:--punishment, torment. G2849
http://www.godrules.net/library/kjvstrongs/kjvstrongsmat25.htm
25:46 And 2532 these 3778 shall go away 565 5695 into 1519 everlasting 166 punishment 2851: but 1161 the righteous 1342 into 1519 life 2222 eternal 166.
Word: kolasij
Pronounce: kol'-as-is
Strongs Number: G2851
Orig: from 2849; penal infliction:--punishment, torment. G2849
2 Thessalonians 1:9
These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
Hebrews 6:2
of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment.
Matthew 25:46
These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Daniel 12:2
Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to
everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.
The eternal punishment, judgement is destruction of both body and soul = 2nd death... forever after.
These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
Hebrews 6:2
of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment.
Matthew 25:46
These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Daniel 12:2
Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to
everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.
The eternal punishment, judgement is destruction of both body and soul = 2nd death... forever after.
apóllymi (from 575 /apó, "away from," which intensifies ollymi, "to destroy") – properly, fully destroy, cutting off entirely
to cancel out (remove); "to die, with the implication of ruin and destruction"
It is because you're interpreting of the word 'destroy' as meaning annihilation, which it is not. It means to be completely cut off from God, complete loss of well being, eternal ruination. As I said in a previous post, the words translated as destroyed 'olethros, apoleia and apollumi' do not carry the meaning of annihilation. Everyone who comes into the world lives forever either in one of two states:
1). in eternal life in the joy of the Lord in the kingdom of God or
2). In eternal separation from God in torment in the lake of fire
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No, Satan and his angels are not going to cease to exist.
"And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever."
One cannot be tormented 'day and night for ever and ever' if one does not exist.
Those who reject God are living for Satan. He's their father. And those who follow after his ways will be going to the same place as he and his angels, which is the lake of fire.
"And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever."
One cannot be tormented 'day and night for ever and ever' if one does not exist.
Those who reject God are living for Satan. He's their father. And those who follow after his ways will be going to the same place as he and his angels, which is the lake of fire.
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You got that all wrong.
If we're talking about the word "destroy" in Matthew 10:28 then the translators used an accurate English word.
Furthermore, G575 is not the Greek word being used in Matthew 10:28, it's G622. Matthew 10:28 supports annihilation.
G622. apollumi
Strong's Concordance
apollumi: to destroy, destroy utterly
Original Word: ἀπόλλυμι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: apollumi
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-ol'-loo-mee)
Definition: to destroy, destroy utterly
Usage: (a) I kill, destroy, (b) I lose, mid: I am perishing (the resultant death being viewed as certain).
Strong's Lexicon of Matthew 10:28:
https://biblehub.com/strongs/matthew/10-28.htm
If we're talking about the word "destroy" in Matthew 10:28 then the translators used an accurate English word.
Furthermore, G575 is not the Greek word being used in Matthew 10:28, it's G622. Matthew 10:28 supports annihilation.
G622. apollumi
Strong's Concordance
apollumi: to destroy, destroy utterly
Original Word: ἀπόλλυμι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: apollumi
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-ol'-loo-mee)
Definition: to destroy, destroy utterly
Usage: (a) I kill, destroy, (b) I lose, mid: I am perishing (the resultant death being viewed as certain).
Strong's Lexicon of Matthew 10:28:
https://biblehub.com/strongs/matthew/10-28.htm
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If you do not believe that Jesus is God Almighty, then it is no wonder as to why you are concerned about the issue of eternal punishment. I would say that you need to do a study on Jesus as being God Almighty.
After Jesus showed Thomas His nail marks in His feet and hands and the spear wound in His side, Thomas said to Jesus "My Lord and My God!" And Jesus said, "Thomas, you believe because you have seen. Bless are those who believe but have not seen" Notice that Jesus did not rebuke Thomas when He called Him God.
When Jesus said to the Jews "I and the Father are one,” they picked up stones to stone Him. But Jesus responded, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone Me?”
“We are not stoning You for any good work,” said the Jews, “but for blasphemy, because You, who are a man, declare Yourself to be God.”
"Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
How man Alpha's and Omega's are there?
There are many more scriptures proving that Jesus is God in the flesh, but these should be enough to get the point across.
After Jesus showed Thomas His nail marks in His feet and hands and the spear wound in His side, Thomas said to Jesus "My Lord and My God!" And Jesus said, "Thomas, you believe because you have seen. Bless are those who believe but have not seen" Notice that Jesus did not rebuke Thomas when He called Him God.
When Jesus said to the Jews "I and the Father are one,” they picked up stones to stone Him. But Jesus responded, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone Me?”
“We are not stoning You for any good work,” said the Jews, “but for blasphemy, because You, who are a man, declare Yourself to be God.”
"Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
How man Alpha's and Omega's are there?
There are many more scriptures proving that Jesus is God in the flesh, but these should be enough to get the point across.
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Then the god you know is not the God of the Bible. Because He has made it clear in His word that punishment in the lake of fire is eternal. Both the righteous and the wicked will receive resurrected bodies. However, for the wicked, they will receive resurrected bodies mete for their eternal punishment in the lake of fire. Those who are cast into the lake of fire are not annihilated. There is no mention in scripture of temporary punishment.
I'm always amazed at the number of people who completely ignore scripture regarding everlasting punishment.
I'm always amazed at the number of people who completely ignore scripture regarding everlasting punishment.
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