Who Justifieth the Ungodly

[reneweddaybyday]

[quote ="brightfame52, post: 4865662, member: 303341"]You can quote scripture until dooms day, non of them support the false gospel notion that Christ died for everyone without exception.[/quote]
... r-i-g-h-t cuz when God tells us the Lord Jesus Christ is the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world (John 1:29); or that the world through Him might be saved (John 3:16-17); or that He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2) ... God really doesn't mean the world, the whole world. No, we need brightfame52 to explain some alternate erroneous dogmatic reality.

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.


John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.


1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.


You can deny all you want ... your denial of Scripture does not affect the truth of Scripture. Your denial only affects you in your relationship with God.
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[reneweddaybyday]

Again, no scripture ever stated that Faith/believing is required to be Justified, that's a false notion imposes by carnal men who promote salvation/justification by their works.

oh yeah ... I am sooooo carnal because I actually believe God when He says therefore, being justified by faith (Rom 5:1) and I actually believe faith is not works as shown in Romans 4:2-5:

Romans 4:

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it [Abraham's faith] was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

And Justification is without any requirements proposed to man, because its also by Grace Rom 3:24

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus

There you go again ... ripping the verse from the context in which the Author of Scripture has placed it:

Romans 3:

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:


You really need to learn to read Scripture as written. Quit reading Scripture through the lens of your erroneous dogma.
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[reneweddaybyday]

Yes its addressed

intentionally obtuse ...
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[reneweddaybyday]

Those who teach that they are Justified before God, based on their act of faith, obedience or some kind of condition performed, they are in essence claiming more responsibility for their Justification than God had, for according to their reasoning, all that God did through Christ still left them in a unjustified state, but what they did in performing the condition and as an supplement, is what actually Justified them before God !

I believe you believe that.

However, what you believe I believe is not the same as what I believe ... no matter how adamantly you insist that is what I believe.
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[reneweddaybyday]

This thread is designed to prove that Christ died for and justified the ungodly.

All a person needs to do is read Scripture as written.

Do you honestly believe God needs you to "prove that Christ died for and justified the ungodly"?

The OP is predicated on erroneous dogma ... not Scripture.
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[brightfame52]

context, context, context

Read the verse in context ... including the verses just before the verse you quoted:

Colossians 2:

6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:

7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.


In vs 6, the word "received" is translated from the Greek word paralambanó :

3880 paralambánō (from 3844 /pará, "from close-alongside" and 2983 /lambánō, "aggressively take") – to take (receive) by showing strong personal initiative.​

HELPS Word-studies​

vs 6 – the Colossian believers had been taught the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ ... faithful ministers had come alongside them (Greek pará) and the Colossian believers had received by aggressively taking hold, showing strong personal initiative (Greek lambánō) the gospel of Christ taught by faithful ministers.


Next Paul gave warning to the Colossian believers:

Colossians 2:

8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses


Clearly your statement that vs 13 "speaks to Justification before faith or believing" is your erroneous dogma of which we are warned in Col 2:8 we must beware.
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Its in a context. That scripture speaks of Justification before Faith at the death of Christ Col 2:13

13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

They were forgiven because He took them away as they were nailed to His Cross Vs 14

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Paul is talking about the Law, the Law of God has been dealt with, all the elects Transgressions against Gods law are done away with, hence forgiven and Justified.

 

[brightfame52]

You claiming what I do is just more of your erroneous dogma speaking.

Colossians 2:

8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
.

Lol, that doesnt help you, you still condition Salvation on the will and works of man

 

[brightfame52]

Nope. Shining the light of Scripture on your erroneous dogma is not mangling "Gods word".
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Oh Yeah, you good for that. You know you will give an account dont you

 

[brightfame52]

oh yeah ... I am sooooo carnal because I actually believe God when He says therefore, being justified by faith (Rom 5:1) and I actually believe faith is not works as shown in Romans 4:2-5:

Romans 4:

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it [Abraham's faith] was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.





There you go again ... ripping the verse from the context in which the Author of Scripture has placed it:

Romans 3:

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:


You really need to learn to read Scripture as written. Quit reading Scripture through the lens of your erroneous dogma.
.

Im still waiting for you to manufacture a verse that says Faith and or repentance is required for Justification. Lets see, the word required:

to demand as necessary or essential : have a compelling need for. Its an imposition:

something imposed, as a burden or duty; an unusual or extraordinarily burdensome requirement or task.

You may as well try to keep the law to be Justified

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Its in a context.

Maybe within "a context" of your erroneous dogma. However, your erroneous dogma is not Scripture. The only way you can make your dogmatic claims is to rip the verse from the context in which God placed the verse. Definitely not good workmanship there, brightfame52.

Vs 14

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Paul is talking about the Law

In agreement Paul is talking about the law in Col 2:14.

However, as vs 13 (as well as vs 14) fall within the context of vss 6 -12, I provided the Scripture in which God placed Colossians 2:13-14:

Colossians 2:

6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:

7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.


In vs 6, the word "received" is translated from the Greek word paralambanó :

3880 paralambánō (from 3844 /pará, "from close-alongside" and 2983 /lambánō, "aggressively take") – to take (receive) by showing strong personal initiative.​

HELPS Word-studies​

vs 6 – the Colossian believers had been taught the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ ... faithful ministers had come alongside them (Greek pará) and the Colossian believers had received by aggressively taking hold, showing strong personal initiative (Greek lambánō) the gospel of Christ taught by faithful ministers.


Next Paul gave warning to the Colossian believers:

Colossians 2:

8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross


Clearly your statement that vs 13-14 "speaks to Justification before faith or believing" is your erroneous dogma of which we are warned in Col 2:8 we must beware.
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

you still condition Salvation on the will and works of man

nope ... salvation is wholly by grace through faith ... just as Scripture says.

You erroneously claim what I do ... which does not equal what I do. Just as you erroneously claim your dogma is equal to Scripture. newsflash ... your erroneous dogma does not equal Scripture.

You are to bring your dogma into alignment with Scripture. Instead, you attempt to bring Scripture into alignment with your dogma. Not a good approach if you truly desire to know Scripture.
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Shining the light of Scripture on your erroneous dogma

Oh Yeah, you good for that.

Yep ... glad you agree

You know you will give an account dont you

As will you give an account.


2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
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[reneweddaybyday]

Im still waiting for you to manufacture a verse that says Faith and or repentance is required for Justification.

I don't have to "manufacture" anything ... Scripture is quite clear concerning justification by faith:

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ


If you weren't so intentionally obtuse, you would read Scripture in context just as written and just as the Author intended ...

an unusual or extraordinarily burdensome requirement or task.

So now you're claiming that faith (which God has inherently placed within all mankind) is "a burdensome requirement or task"??? What a farce!!!
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[brightfame52]

I believe you believe that.

However, what you believe I believe is not the same as what I believe ... no matter how adamantly you insist that is what I believe.
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Thats what you believe. You said yourself Faith is a requirement for getting saved. Thats works !

 

[brightfame52]

All a person needs to do is read Scripture as written.

Do you honestly believe God needs you to "prove that Christ died for and justified the ungodly"?

The OP is predicated on erroneous dogma ... not Scripture.
.

Justification of the ungodly isnt about what a person must do, its about what a Person has done, the Lord Jesus Christ by His shed blood Justified the ungodly elect !

 

[brightfame52]

renewed

Maybe within "a context" of your erroneous dogma. However, your erroneous dogma is not Scripture. The only way you can make your dogmatic claims is to rip the verse from the context in which God placed the verse. Definitely not good workmanship there, brightfame52.

Thats very basic and elementary, you find scripture truths within the context of scripture. Duh

 

[brightfame52]

Maybe within "a context" of your erroneous dogma. However, your erroneous dogma is not Scripture. The only way you can make your dogmatic claims is to rip the verse from the context in which God placed the verse. Definitely not good workmanship there, brightfame52.





In agreement Paul is talking about the law in Col 2:14.

However, as vs 13 (as well as vs 14) fall within the context of vss 6 -12, I provided the Scripture in which God placed Colossians 2:13-14:

Colossians 2:

6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:

7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.


In vs 6, the word "received" is translated from the Greek word paralambanó :

3880 paralambánō (from 3844 /pará, "from close-alongside" and 2983 /lambánō, "aggressively take") – to take (receive) by showing strong personal initiative.​

HELPS Word-studies​

vs 6 – the Colossian believers had been taught the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ ... faithful ministers had come alongside them (Greek pará) and the Colossian believers had received by aggressively taking hold, showing strong personal initiative (Greek lambánō) the gospel of Christ taught by faithful ministers.


Next Paul gave warning to the Colossian believers:

Colossians 2:

8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross


Clearly your statement that vs 13-14 "speaks to Justification before faith or believing" is your erroneous dogma of which we are warned in Col 2:8 we must beware.
.

The sins of the elect, for thats who Paul is writing of in Colossians judging from Col 3:12

12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

So understand the things written in this epistle is for the elect of God and not the whole world.

So Col 2:13-14 is in regard to the Elect and they read:


13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Its the elects sins that have been forgiven, the elects sins that have been blotted out being nailed to the cross. And this means Justification, this was before they were even born. An elect person doesnt have to be born in order for Christ to have died for their particular sins. Once Christ died for them, they have been put away, they are Justified.

 

[brightfame52]

nope ... salvation is wholly by grace through faith ... just as Scripture says.

You erroneously claim what I do ... which does not equal what I do. Just as you erroneously claim your dogma is equal to Scripture. newsflash ... your erroneous dogma does not equal Scripture.

You are to bring your dogma into alignment with Scripture. Instead, you attempt to bring Scripture into alignment with your dogma. Not a good approach if you truly desire to know Scripture.
.

You condition Justification on works, you said man is required to believe, exercise Faith before he is Justified. Thats works

 

[brightfame52]

I don't have to "manufacture" anything ... Scripture is quite clear concerning justification by faith:

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ


If you weren't so intentionally obtuse, you would read Scripture in context just as written and just as the Author intended ...





So now you're claiming that faith (which God has inherently placed within all mankind) is "a burdensome requirement or task"??? What a farce!!!
.

Im still waiting on the scripture that says man must meet or do a requirement for Salvation. Thats law preaching. See all the requirements that were needed to Justify Gods Elect were met and performed by Jesus Christ, and what He did alone Justified the elect ! Even while they were ungodly, oh what Grace !

 

[brightfame52]

Justification and Righteous before we believe !

That those Christ died for dont have to believe, obey, or repent, in fact do anything in order to be Justified from all sin and pronounced Righteous before God, that Truth is seen in Rom 4:25

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

And was raised again for or because of our Justification. Who are the Our here ? The Our is all for whom He was delivered for their or because of their offences !

Now in the text they are said to be Justified when Christ rose for their Justification ! Now did He raise for my Justifcation before I believed ? Wonder if one that comes to believe on Him did so in 1981, did Christ raise from the dead for their Justifcation before 1981 ? Of course He did ! Now the word Justification here is the greek word dikaiósis and means:

acquittal, justifying, justification, a process of absolution.

emphasizing Christ's full payment of the debt for sin which liberates the believer[or the one Christ died for] from all divine condemnation.

The origin of the word dikaiósis is the word dikaioó:

the act of pronouncing righteous, acquittal

So the word carries both meanings, acquittal and the pronouncing of Righteous.

So all for whom He died and rose again for are both acquitted and pronounced Righteous before God, before they believe a thing, or even before they even know about it, it will be a Gospel revelation to them Rom 1:16-17. However, it was a fact before the Gospel revelation, and so their coming to believe it had absolutely nothing to do with it, for the fact were a reality[before God because of Christ] before they were even born sinners ! This is a Truth the antichrist followers cannot receive ! 12