Who Justifieth the Ungodly

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Mar 23, 2016
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When you declare simple belief as a work, you are on slippery slope.
Exactly, Sipsey. Romans 4:2-5 clearly states that faith is not works.

Romans 4:

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it [Abraham's faith] was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
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Sipsey

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Sep 27, 2018
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Exactly, Sipsey. Romans 4:2-5 clearly states that faith is not works.

Romans 4:

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it [Abraham's faith] was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
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You still using a condition. Thats sandy ground friend !
John 6:28
Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
[29] Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
 

brightfame52

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Nov 21, 2020
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Col 2:13 and Justification !

Col 2:13

13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

This scripture speaks to Justification before faith or believing ! All for whom Christ died, dying for their sins /offences that had been charged unto Him, Rom 4:25

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

The word trespasses and offences are the same word from the original paraptōma:

I.
to fall beside or near something

II.
a lapse or deviation from truth and uprightness
A.
a sin, misdeed

So to be included is the original trespass in Adam, as Man in him was made upright Ecc 7:29

29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man['adam ] upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

That it includes Adam's sin also is seen here Rom 5:15

But not as the offence [by adam], so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

And so He died as their Surety and Representative, and when He arose, He rose as the same, as their Surety and Representative, so much so that its said / written that they arose with Him, or they were quickened together with Him ! Peter wrote of His resurrection 1 Pet 3:18

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

Its a quickening, and the same word is used in Col 2:13 just with the prep syn which means " with"

So when He was quickened from the dead as our Surety Head, those He represented were quickened together from the dead with Him , and so in Rom 4:25 it is stated clearly that He was quicken / raised for /because of their Justification !

Now the word Justification, the greek word dikaiōsis means:

I.
the act of God declaring men free from guilt and acceptable to him

II.
abjuring to be righteous, justification

Which is an equivalent to forgiven Col 2:13 ! Rom 4:25 can say as well this:

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again because we have been forgiven of those offences !

So Christ's being risen from the dead is an evidence and proof positive of that, and the death that was due to our sins Rom 6:23, has been put away, abolished, and so constituting the forgiveness of our sins; so the resurrection of Christ is evidence that all for whom He died are forgiven/ Justified before they believe ! To deny this is to deny the very evidence of the resurrection, which is unbelief ! No one can be a believer and deny the resurrection and what it evidences as the accomplishment of Christ's death !
 

brightfame52

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Nov 21, 2020
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John 6:28
Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
[29] Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
I have no problem with John 6:28-29, but if you condition salvation or any part of it on your believing, or anything you do, you promote a man centered works salvation which is condemned in scripture.
 

brightfame52

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Nov 21, 2020
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nope ... the Object of "our Faith, Namely Christ, hath Justified us and made us Righteous."
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You still condition Justification on man, what you do. For instance, do you believe everyone Christ died for is Justified ? Yes or No
 

brightfame52

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Nov 21, 2020
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You disagree with Scripture. It is Scripture which teaches the Lord Jesus Christ died for all mankind:

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.


John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.


1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.


You can deny all you want ... your denial of Scripture does not affect the truth of Scripture. Your denial only affects you in your relationship with God.
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You can quote scripture until dooms day, non of them support the false gospel notion that Christ died for everyone without exception.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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I have no problem with John 6:28-29, but if you condition salvation or any part of it on your believing, or anything you do, you promote a man centered works salvation which is condemned in scripture.
Paul was a man. The gospel he preached was simple: believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. Acts 16:31

What is condemned IN Scripture is YOUR opinion.

The gospel of John used the word "believe" 100 times in relation to being saved.
 

brightfame52

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Nov 21, 2020
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Your refusal to read the verse in the context within which the Author of Scripture has placed the verse does not negate the fact that God imputes righteousness to those who believe (have faith).





seriously? 79 pages into this thread and you finally "agree" that "Rom 5:1 says something about Justified by Faith"?

Romans 5:1 says more than just "something about Justified by Faith", especially if you read the verse within the context within which the Author of Scripture has placed the verse.

Why don't you just believe what is written? Instead of the mental gymnastics you go through to support your erroneous dogma, just believe what God tells us ...


Romans 4:

20 He [Abraham] staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

21 And being fully persuaded that, what he [God] had promised, he [God] was able also to perform.

22 And therefore it [Abraham's faith] was imputed to him for righteousness.

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it [righteousness] was imputed to him;

24 But for us also, to whom it [righteousness] shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ
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Again, no scripture ever stated that Faith/believing is required to be Justified, that's a false notion imposes by carnal men who promote salvation/justification by their works.

Everything required for a sinner to be Justified Christ provided in His Work, His Blood. Rom 5:9
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

And Justification is without any requirements proposed to man, because its also by Grace Rom 3:24

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Freely can be understood to mean without requirements or conditions ! Now you teach the very opposite !
 

brightfame52

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Nov 21, 2020
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No brightfame52. You have not addressed the issue and I do not believe you are capable of honestly addressing the issue.

I am not speaking of those who are "saved from wrath".

Again, I am speaking of your comment in your Post 1510 wherein you stated security has "nothing to do with mans faith or repentance".

And in Post 1516, I provided Scripture which clearly indicates that repentance and faith are required before a person receives the gift of Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38) and/or is converted (Acts 3:19). Conversion and receiving Holy Spirit = to be born again. The born again one is justified before God by faith (Romans 5:1)

Again, your intentional obtuseness is clearly on display in this conversation … :rolleyes:
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Yes its addressed, those sinners Christ died for are Justified by His Blood and saved from His Wrath !
 

brightfame52

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Nov 21, 2020
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Name the "those who teach" as you have claimed, brightfame52.

It appears to me that all who have posted on this thread are in agreement that it is God Who justifies based solely on His grace.

The fact that you claim faith is something that it is not does not make your claim accurate.

And if you believe you are automatically justified because you believe you're "elect", you are sadly mistaken. If the Lord Jesus Christ is not Lord in your life and if you have not believed in your heart that God raised the Lord Jesus Christ from the dead, you will find yourself in the same boat as those we read about in Rev 20:15.

Romans 10:

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
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Again,Those who teach that they are Justified before God, based on their act of faith, obedience or some kind of condition performed, they are in essence claiming more responsibility for their Justification than God had, for according to their reasoning, all that God did through Christ still left them in a unjustified state, but what they did in performing the condition and as an supplement, is what actually Justified them before God ! May I add, they are also teaching Justification by meritorious works, or virtue God sees in them !
 

brightfame52

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Nov 21, 2020
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renew

I am not speaking of those who are "saved from wrath".
Then you not speaking about anyone Christ died for and Justified. This thread is designed to prove that Christ died for and justified the ungodly.
 

Sipsey

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Sep 27, 2018
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Again,Those who teach that they are Justified before God, based on their act of faith, obedience or some kind of condition performed, they are in essence claiming more responsibility for their Justification than God had, for according to their reasoning, all that God did through Christ still left them in a unjustified state, but what they did in performing the condition and as an supplement, is what actually Justified them before God ! May I add, they are also teaching Justification by meritorious works, or virtue God sees in them !
So, are you saying that God will accept the rejection or disbelief of man or angel, but ones belief has no effect on God’s ultimate decision?

Also, you seem to reject the verse that states, “Without faith, it is impossible to please God.”
 
Jan 31, 2021
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Again, no scripture ever stated that Faith/believing is required to be Justified
Wrong. Romans 5:1 is very clear. Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we[a] have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Gal 2:16 - yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

These 2 verses say in PLAIN LANGUAGE that we are justified on the basis of faith, the EXACT OPPOSITE of what you keep claiming.

Your opinions are NOT biblical.

that's a false notion imposes by carnal men who promote salvation/justification by their works.
Justification by faith is the exact opposite to justification by works.

Everything required for a sinner to be Justified Christ provided in His Work, His Blood. Rom 5:9
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
First, Rom 5:1 PLAINLY says that we are justified by faith. So faith in what? Faith IN His blood, or death on the cross. So 5:9 simply clarified exactly what our FAITH must be IN for justification.

And Justification is without any requirements proposed to man, because its also by Grace Rom 3:24
Justification by faith is by GRACE.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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Yes its addressed, those sinners Christ died for are Justified by His Blood and saved from His Wrath !
You opinion is unbiblical. The Bible says that Christ died for the ungodly. Your opinion makes that to mean ONLY "the elect".

So, if your opinion were true, then all the "non-elect" cannot be "the ungodly", and your opinion results in universalism.
 

brightfame52

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Nov 21, 2020
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So, are you saying that God will accept the rejection or disbelief of man or angel, but ones belief has no effect on God’s ultimate decision?

Also, you seem to reject the verse that states, “Without faith, it is impossible to please God.”
God justified the ungodly. An ungodly person isnt a person with Faith that pleases God. Furthermore its error to even bring up anything about man causing God to make a decision, what can a filthy God hating sinner do that can possibly cause God to Justify them. If you bring up anything, then you obviously put that thing above Christs Blood.
 
Mar 23, 2016
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Col 2:13

13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

This scripture speaks to Justification before faith or believing !
:rolleyes: context, context, context

Read the verse in context ... including the verses just before the verse you quoted:

Colossians 2:

6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:

7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.


In vs 6, the word "received" is translated from the Greek word paralambanó :

3880 paralambánō (from 3844 /pará, "from close-alongside" and 2983 /lambánō, "aggressively take") – to take (receive) by showing strong personal initiative.
HELPS Word-studies


vs 6 – the Colossian believers had been taught the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ ... faithful ministers had come alongside them (Greek pará) and the Colossian believers had received by aggressively taking hold, showing strong personal initiative (Greek lambánō) the gospel of Christ taught by faithful ministers.


Next Paul gave warning to the Colossian believers:

Colossians 2:

8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses


Clearly your statement that vs 13 "speaks to Justification before faith or believing" is your erroneous dogma of which we are warned in Col 2:8 we must beware.
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Mar 23, 2016
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You still condition Justification on man, what you do.
You claiming what I do is just more of your erroneous dogma speaking.

Colossians 2:

8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
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