Which Delivered Us from the Wrath to Come. (1Th 1:10)

[cv5]

Refer all you want. Paul is only speaking of not casting off the remnant.

God himself said he would destroy the nation:

(Isa 65:12 Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spake, ye did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose that wherein I delighted not)

(Isa 65:15 And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord GOD shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name)

I or anyone else could very easily provide literally hundreds of Scriptures indicating the absolute certainty of the redemption of the literal, earthly tribe of Jacob. I won't do that because you will certainly not listen. Poking your finger in the apple of God's eye is very foolish kid.

 

[Diakonos]

Paul stated the gospel had been preached to every creature under heaven

Do you think that every single person on planet earth had heard the Gospel when Paul wrote that?

the whole Roman Empire

If not...would you consider that Paul used "every creature under heaven" as a hyperbole for "The entire Roman Empire"?

 

[azamzimtoti]

Do you think that every single person on planet earth had heard the Gospel when Paul wrote that?

Not necessary that every single person heard the gospel, it had reached China in the 1st century.

If not...would you consider that Paul used "every creature under heaven" as a hyperbole for "The entire Roman Empire"?

Of course he's using hyperbole, nevertheless the gospel of the kingdom had been preached.

The same applies to what Jesus said

(Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature)

 

[Diakonos]

So you think that what Jesus said: "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations"...You think that had been fulfilled by the time Paul wrote Colossians?

 

[cv5]

I've heard this "argument" before. You need to consider Jesus' statement in it's covenant context. This was the casting off of his own "peculiar people". His destruction of the "holy nation".

(Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains)

(Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.)

(Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.)

All three gospels speak of the same event with the warning to "flee to the mountains".

(Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.)

(Luke 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.)

(Luke 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.)

(Mark 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains)

(Mark 13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done)


(Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.)

Paul stated the gospel had been preached to every creature under heaven, therefore the "end" came in the 1st century AD.

(Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister)

The Great tribulation epicenter was Jerusalem, the whole Roman Empire was in turmoil.

If as YOU say God hates Jews, why are there any left in the world today? Is God having trouble wiping them out completely the way he wiped out so many other civilizations and tribes and nations? And how in the world did Israel win all of those wars and get back into the land when as you say God Himself and the entire world were against them? Are they stronger than God?

 

[Ahwatukee]

I've heard this "argument" before. You need to consider Jesus' statement in it's covenant context. This was the casting off of his own "peculiar people". His destruction of the "holy nation".

(Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains)

(Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.)

(Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.)

The great tribulation will affect every person on the earth and not just Israel. The warning to those who are in Judea to flee to the mountains, is in reference to the abomination that will be set up by the antichrist, which causes Israel to flee. The abomination being set up is what kicks off the great tribulation period. This fleeing of Israel, is synonymous with Israel has being the woman of Rev.12, when after Satan and his angels are cast out of heaven. The woman flees out into the wilderness and is cared for by God for 1260, which is the last 3 1/2 years of Daniels seven year period. While this is going on, the beast/antichrist will be given power to make war and to conquer the great tribulation saints for 42 months, which are gentiles (Rev.13:5-7), which again is referring to that last 3 1/2 years, at the end of which Jesus returns to the earth to conquer the antichrist and establish His millennial kingdom.

(Mark 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains)

You emboldened the wrong part of the paragraph which should be "when you see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand were it ought not." This happens in the middle of the seven years, which hasn't happened yet. But will happen 3 1/2 years after that ruler, the antichrist establishes his seven year covenant with Israel and which will allow them to rebuild their temple.

(Mark 13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done)

You preterist's always highjack this verse in order support your false belief. Below is the entire context:

===========================================================================================
Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its branches become tender and sprout leaves, you know that summer is near. So also, when you see all these things, you will know that He is near, right at the door. Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened.

===========================================================================================

In the context above, the trees blossoming is a sign that summer is near. Likewise, when you see all of these things taking place you know that the Lord's return is near. Following that the Lord says, "this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened" Therefore grammatically speaking, "this generation" would half to refer to the generation where all of those events take place and is not referring to the generation that Jesus was living in. In other words, "this generation (the one where all of these things take place) will not pass away until they have been fulfilled. Without all of these events that Jesus said would take place you can have no fulfillment and is therefore yet to be fulfilled.

In Matt.24:30-31, we have Jesus arriving on the clouds of heaven after those events have taken place. Then He sends out His angels to first gather the weeds from the parable in Matt.13 and then the wheat is gathered, which are those great tribulation saints who will have made it through the entire tribulation period alive. So, where has the world ever seen the Lord arriving on the clouds of heaven? And when did the angels gather the saints? The answer is that it hasn't happened yet.

All of these events mentioned in Matt.24 all lead up to the Lord's literal physical return to the earth to end the age, where at which time He will establish His kingdom on the earth for a thousand years.

My advice to you, is to get away from the false teachings of preterism.

 

[azamzimtoti]

So you think that what Jesus said: "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations"...You think that had been fulfilled by the time Paul wrote Colossians?

On the one hand you want Paul to be speaking hyperbole but not Jesus.

(Luke 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.)

(Acts 3:24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.)

Do "these days" last 2000 years?

 

[cv5]

On the one hand you want Paul to be speaking hyperbole but not Jesus.

(Luke 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.)

(Acts 3:24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.)

Do "these days" last 2000 years?

Acts 3:21
whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.

"these days" are the "restoration of all things" (starting from Pentecost) up to and including the redemption of Jacob and the Second Coming, all of which the prophets have been declaring since Genesis 3.

 

[Diakonos]

On the one hand you want Paul to be speaking hyperbole but not Jesus.

What I want is the truth. You haven't answered my question.

(Luke 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.)

He's talking about the Mid-point of the Tribulation, when the Anti-Christ erects the Abomination of Desolation in the Temple. "The things written" refer to what the O.T. says about the Day of the Lord, specifically about the Tribulation here.

 

[cv5]

Already redeemed "Jacob" in the 1st century - call them the elect/remnant whatever. The whole nation was never to be saved.

God's covenant on the behalf of Jacob was not and cannot be abandoned. All will be fulfilled for the sake and the Name of God.

Zechariah 8:23 – “This is what the LORD Almighty says: ‘In those days ten men from all languages and nations will take firm hold of one Jew by the hem of his robe and say, “Let us go with you, because we have heard that God is with you.”‘”

Isa 11:12 - He will set up a banner for the nations, And will assemble the outcasts of Israel, And gather together the dispersed of Judah From the four corners of the earth.

Isa 14:2 - Then people will take them and bring them to their place, and the house of Israel will possess them for servants and maids in the land of the LORD; they will take them captive whose captives they were, and rule over their oppressors.

Isa 49:22 - Thus says the Lord God: “Behold, I will lift My hand in an oath to the nations, And set up My standard for the peoples; They shall bring your sons in their arms, And your daughters shall be carried on their shoulders; Kings shall be your foster fathers, And their queens your nursing mothers; They shall bow down to you with their faces to the earth, And lick up the dust of your feet. Then you will know that I am the Lord, For they shall not be ashamed who wait for Me.”

Isa 66:20 - Then they shall bring all your brethren for an offering to the Lord out of all nations, on horses and in chariots and in litters, on mules and on camels, to My holy mountain Jerusalem,” says the Lord, “as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the Lord.

Isa 60:9 - Surely the coastlands shall wait for Me; And the ships of Tarshish will come first, To bring your sons from afar, Their silver and their gold with them, To the name of the Lord your God, And to the Holy One of Israel, Because He has glorified you.

Isa 66:10 - “Rejoice with Jerusalem, And be glad with her, all you who love her; Rejoice for joy with her, all you who mourn for her!

 

[garee]

And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come. (1Th 1:10)

I used to toy with the idea that 'the wrath to come' was a euphemism for hell.
Let's say it is, then what is all the destruction that goes on in Revelation and the sudden destruction that takes the world by surprise in 1Thess 5:3?

For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
(1Th 5:3)

Let's say it is not a euphemism for hell but a brief description of the Great Tribulation which is to fall upon this world at a time they are unaware.

Matthew 24:38-39 (KJV) For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Then would not 'which delivered us from the wrath to come' be referring to the rapture of the Church?

I would offer. We are not being saved from the "first death" . That would make God a liar and his perfect law without effect. .

The wrath to come should be compared to the wrath that is being revealed (Romans 1:18) Having its start in the beginning .

The wrath mankind is under began being revealed when the glory of God departed in the garden . That glory will return on the last day under the sun. (corruption time keeper) .

Those suffering according to the letter of the law the "first death" is that which all must suffer through, the pangs of hell. Christian that are yoked with Christ have rest in that work. With the help of Christ we can overcome the sufferings of the flesh . . . the first death .

The wrath to come is the end of the world under the Sun, the second death tossing the letter of the law and sufferings of hell that are part of it . Both the tool the letter and the work of suffering in respect to the law will be cast into that fire .The law that kills. It will never to rise and condemn through corruption, dying the sufferings of hell ever again .

 

[cv5]

And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come. (1Th 1:10)

I used to toy with the idea that 'the wrath to come' was a euphemism for hell.
Let's say it is, then what is all the destruction that goes on in Revelation and the sudden destruction that takes the world by surprise in 1Thess 5:3?

For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
(1Th 5:3)

Let's say it is not a euphemism for hell but a brief description of the Great Tribulation which is to fall upon this world at a time they are unaware.

Matthew 24:38-39 (KJV) For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Then would not 'which delivered us from the wrath to come' be referring to the rapture of the Church?

Yes. Yes it would.

 

[Diakonos]

And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come. (1Th 1:10)

I used to toy with the idea that 'the wrath to come' was a euphemism for hell.
Let's say it is, then what is all the destruction that goes on in Revelation and the sudden destruction that takes the world by surprise in 1Thess 5:3?

For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
(1Th 5:3)

Let's say it is not a euphemism for hell but a brief description of the Great Tribulation which is to fall upon this world at a time they are unaware.

Matthew 24:38-39 (KJV) For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Then would not 'which delivered us from the wrath to come' be referring to the rapture of the Church?

Yes, because the Tribulation is called "the wrath of the lamb" at its beginning in Revelation 6.

 

[crossnote]

I would offer. We are not being saved from the "first death" . That would make God a liar and his perfect law without effect. .

The wrath to come should be compared to the wrath that is being revealed (Romans 1:18) Having its start in the beginning .

The wrath mankind is under began being revealed when the glory of God departed in the garden . That glory will return on the last day under the sun. (corruption time keeper) .

Those suffering according to the letter of the law the "first death" is that which all must suffer through, the pangs of hell. Christian that are yoked with Christ have rest in that work. With the help of Christ we can overcome the sufferings of the flesh . . . the first death .

The wrath to come is the end of the world under the Sun, the second death tossing the letter of the law and sufferings of hell that are part of it . Both the tool the letter and the work of suffering in respect to the law will be cast into that fire .The law that kills. It will never to rise and condemn through corruption, dying the sufferings of hell ever again .

If the wrath ‘to come’ is being revealed (Rom 1:18) that wouldn’t fit the context of...

John 3:36 KJV
[36] He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

or especially...

Revelation 6:17 KJV
[17] For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

 

[luigi]

The Word speaks often of a separation between the Lord and those who love the world.
When the Lord comes like a thief in the night and removes His Spirit from they who love the world, those will then be in darkness, while the Lord's people throughout the world will then shine (Isaiah 60:1-2).

 

[garee]

What I want is the truth. You haven't answered my question.
He's talking about the Mid-point of the Tribulation, when the Anti-Christ erects the Abomination of Desolation in the Temple. "The things written" refer to what the O.T. says about the Day of the Lord, specifically about the Tribulation here.

That idea seems to get turned upside down. . as if we did walk by sight after what the eyes see, the temporal.

The tribulation. . . the lasts days is here.

The Abomination of Desolation is the temple (the temporal thing seen) . Things seen in the place of faith the unseen eternal. . . an abomination .

We are a kingdom of priest that are empowered to hold out the gospel of peace. Our father calls us prophets and priest men and woman the "temple". A living Spirit living in these earthen bodies of death .

2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

Its not the things that were in the temple that make it un holy or a abomination. But rather the fact it as a image idol stood in the place of faith as if we did walk by sight the temporal seen . God is not served by human hands. He does not live in temples made with the corrupted hands of men. Men that are dead in there trespass and sin, without a living hope and God in this world.

God's people are the people he moved out of Egypt as a picture of the gospel to the whole world. (Not to edify their corrupted flesh we are the people) . . He gave them a sign to the world for the 40 years before entering the promise land .The cut off point. .

A temporal house (tabernacle )A movable tent was used as a sign to the world . When they reached the promised land , it was no longer needed and therefore was made to no effect having served its one time good purpose. . Just like the bronze snake when men turned it into a idol image. He made then drink the ground up brass that represents judgment in order to show it comes out as draught. The things seen cannot enter ones hard heart and make it soft. That's the work of eternal words of faith coming from the eternal Spirit. He is not a man ..

Faithless natural mankind is quick to literalize the unseen signified, understanding of God as in: "did God really say"?

That reveals they have no faith that could please God. They have no understanding by which they should seek him.

Marvel not a man must be born of the faith of Christ.

The foolish Jews as fools "no God in their hearts" demanded of Samael the prophet or spokesman That they have there very own abomination of desolation, a outward representation like kings of the pagan nations . They had become jealous of the pagan tradition and in false pride built a temple with human hands. to show the world those who deny God not seen as King of kings. god gave them over to do that which they should not of. The time of reformation came and restored the order to judges man and woman prophets from all nation. . a kingdom of priest
.
The faithless Jew used to represent faithless mankind desired that authority after what the eyes see .No faith. Making it as it is written(sola scriptura) without effect . mankind putting their faith in what they see, Not faith but sight temporal

 

[cv5]

That idea seems to get turned upside down. . as if we did walk by sight after what the eyes see, the temporal.

The tribulation. . . the lasts days is here.

The Abomination of Desolation is the temple (the temporal thing seen) . Things seen in the place of faith the unseen eternal. . . an abomination .

We are a kingdom of priest that are empowered to hold out the gospel of peace. Our father calls us prophets and priest men and woman the "temple". A living Spirit living in these earthen bodies of death .

2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

Its not the things that were in the temple that make it un holy or a abomination. But rather the fact it as a image idol stood in the place of faith as if we did walk by sight the temporal seen . God is not served by human hands. He does not live in temples made with the corrupted hands of men. Men that are dead in there trespass and sin, without a living hope and God in this world.

God's people are the people he moved out of Egypt as a picture of the gospel to the whole world. (Not to edify their corrupted flesh we are the people) . . He gave them a sign to the world for the 40 years before entering the promise land .The cut off point. .

A temporal house (tabernacle )A movable tent was used as a sign to the world . When they reached the promised land , it was no longer needed and therefore was made to no effect having served its one time good purpose. . Just like the bronze snake when men turned it into a idol image. He made then drink the ground up brass that represents judgment in order to show it comes out as draught. The things seen cannot enter ones hard heart and make it soft. That's the work of eternal words of faith coming from the eternal Spirit. He is not a man ..

Faithless natural mankind is quick to literalize the unseen signified, understanding of God as in: "did God really say"?

That reveals they have no faith that could please God. They have no understanding by which they should seek him.

Marvel not a man must be born of the faith of Christ.

The foolish Jews as fools "no God in their hearts" demanded of Samael the prophet or spokesman That they have there very own abomination of desolation, a outward representation like kings of the pagan nations . They had become jealous of the pagan tradition and in false pride built a temple with human hands. to show the world those who deny God not seen as King of kings. god gave them over to do that which they should not of. The time of reformation came and restored the order to judges man and woman prophets from all nation. . a kingdom of priest
.
The faithless Jew used to represent faithless mankind desired that authority after what the eyes see .No faith. Making it as it is written(sola scriptura) without effect . mankind putting their faith in what they see, Not faith but sight temporal

I would suggest that you tighten up on your hermeneutics. Your exegesis is running way way off the rails buddy.

 

[garee]

If the wrath ‘to come’ is being revealed (Rom 1:18) that wouldn’t fit the context of...

John 3:36 KJV
[36] He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

or especially...

Revelation 6:17 KJV
[17] For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

The wrath to come is the end of the world the second death, the death Christ atoned for or redeemed us from .

Not the first death. We are working it out in our sufferings yoked with Christ our rest. . The continuous wrath is being revealed and death and the suffering that we experience will be destroyed never to rise and condemn a whole creation ever again

 

[garee]

I would suggest that you tighten up on your hermeneutics. Your exegesis is running way way off the rails buddy.

Thanks for the reply. Which rail is that? LOL

 

[Ahwatukee]

Already redeemed "Jacob" in the 1st century - call them the elect/remnant whatever. The whole nation was never to be saved.

The following, as well as other prophesies, has yet to be fulfilled in regards to Israel:

Seventy weekse are decreed for your people and your holy city to stop their transgression, to put an end to sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy Place.

Sixty nine of the seventy sevens were fulfilled when the Anointed One was cut off (Christ crucified). At that time God put on hold the seventieth seven year period and began to build His church. Once the church is completed the Lord will appear and call the dead and the living up. Following that, God will then pick up right where He left off with Israel in fulfillment of that last seven of the seventy sevens, which is known as the Day of the Lord and the time of God's wrath. It is during this time that the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will be poured out.

In addition, you have the woman of Rev.12 which is symbolically representing the nation Israel, fleeing out into the wilderness to the place that God will have prepared for her, where she will be cared for 1260 days, which is that last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. Regarding Israel Paul said the following:

"Regarding the gospel, they (Israel) are enemies on your (Gentiles) account; but regarding election, they are loved on account of the patriarchs. For God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable.