Which Delivered Us from the Wrath to Come. (1Th 1:10)
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Wrath to come not speak of the potential judgment of believers which has already been averted by their saving faith, but the “hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth” Thats just it huh. Well Gods wrath is not on us. So.. whats coming is not on some city this time but the world and all in it. I can't find in Gods word where they "the righteous" had to go through/see Gods wrath. We get God protected them so He will do it again. That part is not written. The problem here is again what coming is on the whole world "Then I heard a loud voice from the temple, saying to the seven angels, “Go and pour out on the earth the seven bowls of the wrath of God.” "“Go and pour out on the earth the seven bowls of the wrath of God.” " Even this.. pour out on the earth. And other places.. we know its the world this time. Who warned you about the wrath to come?
See this 'protection".. has to be with faith. And can you do it now?
Things going on right now even out side your house.. do you know that you know that you know.. it will never come near you? Do you know 1000 will fall on one side and 10,000 your other side.. but again it will never touch you? Easy to talk now... but whats coming .. the earth has never seen before. Then some one out there doing wonders.. like Christ did.. lying wonders... to Israel.. the Messiah has come. What about all this authority you were given by GOD over ALL the power of the enemy? Thats ALL authorithy over the lawless one. Yet in the great trib he is given authority over the saints and to kill them. That does not get touched. As if God is going to give the lawless one power over Christ in us? Were not talking about some man killing now. Just things I wonder about
I wanted to say ..what if we played like they did back then? Well figured of speech.. but they had not Greek dictionary to look up ever word.. I have to lol. And they didn't have that Torah just laying there to brake open and read.. I am thinking most didn't. What if we didn't copy and paste what so and so said that we agree with. But only what we KNOW. See if its in the NT? Its on the OT. Paul was not talking about what what was written in the NT.. it was OT/Torah. All we are talking about IS written in the OT.
See this 'protection".. has to be with faith. And can you do it now?
Things going on right now even out side your house.. do you know that you know that you know.. it will never come near you? Do you know 1000 will fall on one side and 10,000 your other side.. but again it will never touch you? Easy to talk now... but whats coming .. the earth has never seen before. Then some one out there doing wonders.. like Christ did.. lying wonders... to Israel.. the Messiah has come. What about all this authority you were given by GOD over ALL the power of the enemy? Thats ALL authorithy over the lawless one. Yet in the great trib he is given authority over the saints and to kill them. That does not get touched. As if God is going to give the lawless one power over Christ in us? Were not talking about some man killing now. Just things I wonder about I wanted to say ..what if we played like they did back then? Well figured of speech.. but they had not Greek dictionary to look up ever word.. I have to lol. And they didn't have that Torah just laying there to brake open and read.. I am thinking most didn't. What if we didn't copy and paste what so and so said that we agree with. But only what we KNOW. See
if its in the NT? Its on the OT. Paul was not talking about what what was written in the NT.. it was OT/Torah. All we are talking about IS written in the OT.
See if its in the NT? Its on the OT. Paul was not talking about what what was written in the NT.. it was OT/Torah. All we are talking about IS written in the OT.
if its in the NT? Its on the OT. Paul was not talking about what what was written in the NT.. it was OT/Torah. All we are talking about IS written in the OT.
, but I do believe Paul understood the correct definition of "The Day of the Lord" (an earthly-located period of time of JUDGMENTs followed by an earthly-located period of time of BLESSINGs); so that his point in 2Th2 needs to be understood in view of this.He had already stated in his first letter to them, that the Thessalonians "KNOW PERFECTLY" that that time period will ARRIVE in such-and-such a way (1Th5:1-3; As vv. 2-3 says, like the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" that comes UPON a woman in labor... and Jesus had told of that very thing, referring to when that future time-period will START).
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Evidently this is the cause of much confusion:
"Before we proceed any further, the King James Bible critic—who usually runs to “the Greek” for counsel—will be disappointed to learn that the majority of the Greek manuscripts read “Christ”and not “Lord” in 2 Thessalonians 2:2. That is to say, most surviving Greek New Testament manuscripts testify that the King James Bible is correct and the modern versions and their “better [minority] Greek texts” are wrong! Rather than getting angry with the King James translators, we pause and wonder whocriticizes the Greek copyists who wrote the word Christos in the Greek version of 2 Thessalonians 2:2 long before the 1611 translators rendered it “Christ?!” The King James translators did not mistranslate; their Greek text read christos in 2 Thessalonians 2:2, not kurios (“Lord”). But, we proceed onward."
"Before we proceed any further, the King James Bible critic—who usually runs to “the Greek” for counsel—will be disappointed to learn that the majority of the Greek manuscripts read “Christ”and not “Lord” in 2 Thessalonians 2:2. That is to say, most surviving Greek New Testament manuscripts testify that the King James Bible is correct and the modern versions and their “better [minority] Greek texts” are wrong! Rather than getting angry with the King James translators, we pause and wonder whocriticizes the Greek copyists who wrote the word Christos in the Greek version of 2 Thessalonians 2:2 long before the 1611 translators rendered it “Christ?!” The King James translators did not mistranslate; their Greek text read christos in 2 Thessalonians 2:2, not kurios (“Lord”). But, we proceed onward."
"Day of Christ...."
2 Thess 2:2
That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
https://biblehub.com/text/philippians/1-10.htm
https://biblehub.com/philippians/2-16.htm
https://biblehub.com/philippians/1-10.htm
1Co 1:8
2 Thess 2:2
That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
https://biblehub.com/text/philippians/1-10.htm
https://biblehub.com/philippians/2-16.htm
https://biblehub.com/philippians/1-10.htm
1Co 1:8
Bear in mind that the other word in this verse (2Th2:2) is:"IS PRESENT [PERFECT indicative; G1764 - enestēken / enistémi - https://biblehub.com/greek/1764.htm (7x--see listing of occurrences at right side) ]
https://biblehub.com/text/2_thessalonians/2-2.htm
("is present," not "is at hand")
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I really believe that there is too much debate about these matters. Whenever the rapture comes the important thing is here and now
Are we living the life worthy of a place in the kingdom? If we died today would we be glorified at his coming whenever that is? Its not so much a matter of getting the doctrine right than getting our lives right.
Are we living the life worthy of a place in the kingdom? If we died today would we be glorified at his coming whenever that is? Its not so much a matter of getting the doctrine right than getting our lives right.
Paul had taught the Thessalonians about 'the departing' so he was referring to something he had already taught them. We know from other scripture that part of Paul's teaching/revelation was that the Spirit spoke expressly that in the last days many would depart from the faith. There is nothing in Paul's teachings that would justify the idea that the
Do you have anything in the Bible you can offer to justify that the parousia is a 'span of time.' I can understand seeing day/yom in Hebrew in some contexts as a period of time. But why would the 'parousia' be a long span of time. And if it were, wouldn't we expect Jesus to be visible in the sky and the saints to slowly rise to meet him--- over 7 years, while very eye sees Him, and He slowly come down to the earth after that?
For a parousia in Biblical times, the official would come and other people would go out to meet Him with celebration and escourt him in.
Do you have anything in the Bible you can offer to justify that the parousia is a 'span of time.' I can understand seeing day/yom in Hebrew in some contexts as a period of time. But why would the 'parousia' be a long span of time. And if it were, wouldn't we expect Jesus to be visible in the sky and the saints to slowly rise to meet him--- over 7 years, while very eye sees Him, and He slowly come down to the earth after that?
For a parousia in Biblical times, the official would come and other people would go out to meet Him with celebration and escourt him in.
Paul had taught the Thessalonians about 'the departing' so he was referring to something he had already taught them. We know from other scripture that part of Paul's teaching/revelation was that the Spirit spoke expressly that in the last days many would depart from the faith. There is nothing in Paul's teachings that would justify the idea that the 'the departure' refers to the rapture. Why wouldn't he say 'your departure' if that were the case?
The timeline matches Matthew 24, though, with the love of many waxing cold.
The timeline matches Matthew 24, though, with the love of many waxing cold.
This cannot be the case for several reasons. Here are a few:
1. Jesus said this would be a global event.
2. Jesus said there has never been a worse event than this, nor will there ever be.
1,000,000 people died during the siege of Jerusalem (67-70 AD)
7,000,000 people died during the Holocaust (1941-1945)
I can't even imagine how many people died during the flood, but this tribulation Jesus speaks of will be worse than it.
1. Jesus said this would be a global event.
2. Jesus said there has never been a worse event than this, nor will there ever be.
1,000,000 people died during the siege of Jerusalem (67-70 AD)
7,000,000 people died during the Holocaust (1941-1945)
I can't even imagine how many people died during the flood, but this tribulation Jesus speaks of will be worse than it.
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The ultimate end-time salvation of Jacob is certain.....
https://biblehub.com/esv/isaiah/49.htm
https://biblehub.com/esv/isaiah/49.htm
I've heard this "argument" before. You need to consider Jesus' statement in it's covenant context. This was the casting off of his own "peculiar people". His destruction of the "holy nation".
(Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains)
(Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.)
(Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.)
All three gospels speak of the same event with the warning to "flee to the mountains".
(Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.)
(Luke 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.)
(Luke 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.)
(Mark 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains)
(Mark 13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done)
(Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.)
Paul stated the gospel had been preached to every creature under heaven, therefore the "end" came in the 1st century AD.
(Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister)
The Great tribulation epicenter was Jerusalem, the whole Roman Empire was in turmoil.
(Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains)
(Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.)
(Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.)
All three gospels speak of the same event with the warning to "flee to the mountains".
(Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.)
(Luke 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.)
(Luke 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.)
(Mark 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains)
(Mark 13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done)
(Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.)
Paul stated the gospel had been preached to every creature under heaven, therefore the "end" came in the 1st century AD.
(Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister)
The Great tribulation epicenter was Jerusalem, the whole Roman Empire was in turmoil.
So you are saying that God has cast off his people? I refer you to the apostle Paul for correction on the matter.
Rom 11:1,2
I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew.
Rom 11:1,2
I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew.
Refer all you want. Paul is only speaking of not casting off the remnant.
God himself said he would destroy the nation:
(Isa 65:12 Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spake, ye did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose that wherein I delighted not)
(Isa 65:15 And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord GOD shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name)
God himself said he would destroy the nation:
(Isa 65:12 Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spake, ye did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose that wherein I delighted not)
(Isa 65:15 And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord GOD shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name)