Where does the justification for The New Testament doers of the law in Romans 2:13 originate from?
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Something else to consider. Whether sin ever entered the world or not, mankind was never created to live independently of God. There was a reason God came and walked with Adam and Eve each evening. Apart from God they could not live a satisfying life. It is only as God is our Shepherd that we do not want...Psalm 23:1. We need God to lead, and feed, and meet every need...Psalm 23:2-6. Otherwise, there is an emptiness inside of the individual. And if God isn't filling the emptiness, individuals will begin to fill it with something that isn't God. Some turn to work to fill the void. Others turn to relationships. Others to alcohol and drugs to fill the hole. But only God is all-satisfying. None of these other things were designed to be so. And ultimately, an individual will only be satisfied in an intimate relationship with God.
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He did. Enoch walked with God. Noah found grace in the sight of the Lord. By faith, Abraham believed God. Habakkuk learned the just shall walk by faith. Micah taught to do justice, and love mercy, and to walk humbly before the Lord. Psalm 16:11 tells us that joy is to be found in His presence. Intimacy comes from interacting with God.
The law can tell us how we ought to live, who God is, and what pleases and displeases God. But it is powerless to put us into God's presence. There is one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus. He is the way, the truth, and life. These truths didn't become true when they were written. They have always been true. No one has ever related to God in a pleasing and intimate and acceptable fashion except by Him.
You can choose to relate to God on the basis of the law, but it will not lead you into an intimate relationship with God. The Pharisees tried and failed. Why? Because they used a failed method. The law can lead one to Christ, but is insufficient to lead one to God. Why? Because all the promises of God are in Him. Just as the Pharisees thought they were leading people to God but weren't, so too are you. The gospel is Jesus Christ and Him crucified, not keep the law.
The law can tell us how we ought to live, who God is, and what pleases and displeases God. But it is powerless to put us into God's presence. There is one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus. He is the way, the truth, and life. These truths didn't become true when they were written. They have always been true. No one has ever related to God in a pleasing and intimate and acceptable fashion except by Him.
You can choose to relate to God on the basis of the law, but it will not lead you into an intimate relationship with God. The Pharisees tried and failed. Why? Because they used a failed method. The law can lead one to Christ, but is insufficient to lead one to God. Why? Because all the promises of God are in Him. Just as the Pharisees thought they were leading people to God but weren't, so too are you. The gospel is Jesus Christ and Him crucified, not keep the law.
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While the work of the Spirit was incredibly evident in the life of the early church, as well as in the ministry of Christ, I don't find anything in scripture that prevents their continuation. Much of the work of the Spirit was both to authenticate the ministry as being from God, and, in the case of Jesus, to fulfill prophesy. But the Spirit was poured out on all flesh the day of Pentecost and I didn't get the memo that He had been unpoured.
I have little doubt that you will experience any of the things listed above, or any other miraculous works. Miracles require faith and in this area you do not have any. But Ephesians 1 tells us that the same power that raised Jesus from the dead resides in each believer. Why do you suppose we are told this?
I have little doubt that you will experience any of the things listed above, or any other miraculous works. Miracles require faith and in this area you do not have any. But Ephesians 1 tells us that the same power that raised Jesus from the dead resides in each believer. Why do you suppose we are told this?
And yet, miracles happen everyday. Tongues are spoken and interpreted. People are healed.
All those things were not necessary to establish the early church. They certainly didn't hurt, but Jesus already said the gates of hell will not prevail against the church He was building. So the issue was never need. And you still didn't answer my question.
All those things were not necessary to establish the early church. They certainly didn't hurt, but Jesus already said the gates of hell will not prevail against the church He was building. So the issue was never need. And you still didn't answer my question.
The Hebrew word "yada" refers to intimate relational knowledge gained through experience, such in Genesis 4:1, Adam knew (yada) Eve, she conceived, and gave birth to Cain. The whole Bible is essentially about building of kingdom of citizens who yada God by walking in His way through spreading the Gospel in accordance with the promise. In Genesis 18:19, God knew (yada) Abraham that he would teach his children and those of his household to walk in God's way by doing righteousness and justice that the Lord may bring to him all that He has promised, which is a lynchpin verse for the entire Bible.
In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know (yada) Him, in 1 Kings 2:1-3, God taught how to walk in His way through the Mosaic Law, and in John 17:3, eternal life is knowing God and Jesus. In Jeremiah 9:3 and 9:6, they did not know (yada) God and refuses to now Him because in 9:13, they had forsaken the Mosaic Law, while in 9:24, those who know God know that. He delights in practicing steadfast love, justice, and righteousness in all of the earth, so delighting in practicing those and other aspects of His nature by walking in God's way in obedience to the Mosaic Law is the way to know God and Jesus, who is the exact image of God's nature (Hebrew 1:3), In 1 John 2:6, those who say that they know Jesus, but don't obey His commands are liars, which is because his commands are His instructions for how to know him. In 1 John 3:4-6, those who continue to practice sin in transgression of the Mosaic Law have neither seen nor known him. In Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them.
So yes, God did teach the Israelites how to have an intimate relationship with Him through giving them the Mosaic Law. The Mosaic Covenant is often described in terms of being a marriage between God and Israel, so having an intimate relationship with God is the entire point of the Mosaic Law.
Enoch walked with God because God taught Him to obey His law for how to walk in His way. Likewise, in Genesis 6:8-9, Noah found grace in the eyes of God, he was a righteous man, and he walked with God, so God was gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way in obedience to His law and he was righteous because he obeyed through faith. In Genesis 26:5, Abraham heard God's voice and guard His charge, His commandments, His statutes, and His laws. The way that Micah taught to walk humbly before God was to walk in His way in obedience to His law. The way to interact with God is by practicing his nature by walking in His way in obedience to His law. The Mosaic Law is God's way (Psalms 119:1-3), the truth (Psalms 119:142), and the life (Deuteronomy 32:46-47), and the way to see and know the Father (Exodus 33:13), and Jesus embodied the Mosaic Law by expressing the divine nature through living in sinless obedience to it, so he is the embodiment of the way, the truth, and the life, and the way to see and know the Father (John 14:6-7).
Jesus never criticized the law as being a failed method, which would imply that God failed for instructing a failed method for having an intimate relationship with God and he never criticized the Pharisees for obeying it, but he did criticize them for not obeying it or for not obeying it correct. For example, in Mark 7:6-9, Jesus criticized them as being hypocrites for setting aside the commands of God in order to establish their own traditions. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that tithing was something that they ought to be doing while not neglecting weightier matters of the law of justice, mercy, and faithfulness are weightier matters of the law, so he was not opposing their obedience to it as a way of having an intimate relationship with God, but rather he was calling them to have a higher level of obedience to the Mosaic Law in a manner that is in accordance with its weightier matters, which is the way to have an intimate relationship with God.
In Matthew 4:15-23, the Gospel that Jesus taught called for our obedience to the Mosaic Law, which is the same Gospel that he commissioned his disciples to bring to the nations. In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Mosaic Law is also the way to believe in him and him crucified (Acts 21:20).
In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know (yada) Him, in 1 Kings 2:1-3, God taught how to walk in His way through the Mosaic Law, and in John 17:3, eternal life is knowing God and Jesus. In Jeremiah 9:3 and 9:6, they did not know (yada) God and refuses to now Him because in 9:13, they had forsaken the Mosaic Law, while in 9:24, those who know God know that. He delights in practicing steadfast love, justice, and righteousness in all of the earth, so delighting in practicing those and other aspects of His nature by walking in God's way in obedience to the Mosaic Law is the way to know God and Jesus, who is the exact image of God's nature (Hebrew 1:3), In 1 John 2:6, those who say that they know Jesus, but don't obey His commands are liars, which is because his commands are His instructions for how to know him. In 1 John 3:4-6, those who continue to practice sin in transgression of the Mosaic Law have neither seen nor known him. In Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them.
So yes, God did teach the Israelites how to have an intimate relationship with Him through giving them the Mosaic Law. The Mosaic Covenant is often described in terms of being a marriage between God and Israel, so having an intimate relationship with God is the entire point of the Mosaic Law.
Enoch walked with God because God taught Him to obey His law for how to walk in His way. Likewise, in Genesis 6:8-9, Noah found grace in the eyes of God, he was a righteous man, and he walked with God, so God was gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way in obedience to His law and he was righteous because he obeyed through faith. In Genesis 26:5, Abraham heard God's voice and guard His charge, His commandments, His statutes, and His laws. The way that Micah taught to walk humbly before God was to walk in His way in obedience to His law. The way to interact with God is by practicing his nature by walking in His way in obedience to His law. The Mosaic Law is God's way (Psalms 119:1-3), the truth (Psalms 119:142), and the life (Deuteronomy 32:46-47), and the way to see and know the Father (Exodus 33:13), and Jesus embodied the Mosaic Law by expressing the divine nature through living in sinless obedience to it, so he is the embodiment of the way, the truth, and the life, and the way to see and know the Father (John 14:6-7).
Jesus never criticized the law as being a failed method, which would imply that God failed for instructing a failed method for having an intimate relationship with God and he never criticized the Pharisees for obeying it, but he did criticize them for not obeying it or for not obeying it correct. For example, in Mark 7:6-9, Jesus criticized them as being hypocrites for setting aside the commands of God in order to establish their own traditions. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that tithing was something that they ought to be doing while not neglecting weightier matters of the law of justice, mercy, and faithfulness are weightier matters of the law, so he was not opposing their obedience to it as a way of having an intimate relationship with God, but rather he was calling them to have a higher level of obedience to the Mosaic Law in a manner that is in accordance with its weightier matters, which is the way to have an intimate relationship with God.
In Matthew 4:15-23, the Gospel that Jesus taught called for our obedience to the Mosaic Law, which is the same Gospel that he commissioned his disciples to bring to the nations. In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Mosaic Law is also the way to believe in him and him crucified (Acts 21:20).
What law was Enoch following?
What law was Noah following?
What law was Abraham following?
Relationship doesn't require law. This is where you err. What law led Adam into intimacy with Eve? What law leads God into intimacy with man?
The Mosaic law was given to the Jewish nation. It was given in covenant to a particular people for a particular time. When the covenant ended, the responsibility before the terms of the covenant also ended. Many Jews in the first century, as well as in all times since, have failed to understand this. Some who call themselves Christian have failed to understand this as well. You are one such person. In doing so, you have reckoned Moses as superior to Christ.
I have tried my best in a myriad of ways to say this that in some way you might see and perceive and hear and understand. I have appreciated the polite discussion even as we are diametrically opposed in our understanding. Grace and peace.
What law was Noah following?
What law was Abraham following?
Relationship doesn't require law. This is where you err. What law led Adam into intimacy with Eve? What law leads God into intimacy with man?
The Mosaic law was given to the Jewish nation. It was given in covenant to a particular people for a particular time. When the covenant ended, the responsibility before the terms of the covenant also ended. Many Jews in the first century, as well as in all times since, have failed to understand this. Some who call themselves Christian have failed to understand this as well. You are one such person. In doing so, you have reckoned Moses as superior to Christ.
I have tried my best in a myriad of ways to say this that in some way you might see and perceive and hear and understand. I have appreciated the polite discussion even as we are diametrically opposed in our understanding. Grace and peace.
Enoch walked in God's way (Genesis 5:24), Noah walked in God's way (Genesis 6:8-9), Abraham walked in God's way (Genesis 18:19), Moses walked in God's way (Exodus 33:13), Jesus walked in God's way (John 14:6), and there are many verses that describe the Mosaic Law as being God's way (Deuteronomy 10:12-13, Isaiah 2:2-3, 1 Kings 2:1-3, Joshua 22:5, Psalms 103:7, Psalm 119:1-3, etc.), yet that is what you are diametrically opposed to doing.
There is a way to have an intimate relationship with God and a way to not do that, which requires there be instructions for how distinguish between the two. Again, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Mosaic Law so that he and Israel could have an intimate relationship with Him (Exodus 33:13). We can't have an intimate relationship with God instead by refusing to follow his instructions for how to do that.
God is righteous, so the way to have the experience of knowing God is by doing what is righteous in obedience to His instructions for how to do that and the same is true for other aspects of God's nature. The way to act in accordance with God's righteousness is straightforwardly based on God's righteousness, not on a particular covenant, and God's righteous is eternal (Psalms 119:142), so any instructions that God has ever given for how to do what is righteous are eternally valid regardless of which covenant someone is under, if any, which is why all of God's righteous laws are eternal (Psalms 119:160). The way to act in accordance with God's righteousness existed before the Mosaic Covenant was made, so the fact that instructions for how to do that were included as part of the Mosaic Covenant does not mean that the Mosaic Covenant becoming obsolete means that the eternal way to act in accordance with God's righteousness has changed. Again, in Jeremiah 31:33, the New Covenant involves God putting the Mosaic Law in our minds and writing it on our hearts. IT is God who gave the Law to Moses and who sent Jesus to teach us how to embody it, so teaching to follow it is not reckoning Moses as being superior to Christ.
Much appreciated.
There is a way to have an intimate relationship with God and a way to not do that, which requires there be instructions for how distinguish between the two. Again, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Mosaic Law so that he and Israel could have an intimate relationship with Him (Exodus 33:13). We can't have an intimate relationship with God instead by refusing to follow his instructions for how to do that.
God is righteous, so the way to have the experience of knowing God is by doing what is righteous in obedience to His instructions for how to do that and the same is true for other aspects of God's nature. The way to act in accordance with God's righteousness is straightforwardly based on God's righteousness, not on a particular covenant, and God's righteous is eternal (Psalms 119:142), so any instructions that God has ever given for how to do what is righteous are eternally valid regardless of which covenant someone is under, if any, which is why all of God's righteous laws are eternal (Psalms 119:160). The way to act in accordance with God's righteousness existed before the Mosaic Covenant was made, so the fact that instructions for how to do that were included as part of the Mosaic Covenant does not mean that the Mosaic Covenant becoming obsolete means that the eternal way to act in accordance with God's righteousness has changed. Again, in Jeremiah 31:33, the New Covenant involves God putting the Mosaic Law in our minds and writing it on our hearts. IT is God who gave the Law to Moses and who sent Jesus to teach us how to embody it, so teaching to follow it is not reckoning Moses as being superior to Christ.
Much appreciated.