Where does the justification for The New Testament doers of the law in Romans 2:13 originate from?
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Maybe I missed it somewhere in this thread, but can you explain to me what the Mosaic Law is? I do believe that when a person gets saved, that God gives them His Holy Spirit, not only as a seal over us that we belong to Him, but also to enable us to live as He wants us to, and cause us to obey Him.
I'm wondering what laws you're thinking that we Christians should follow that are part of the Mosaic Law that we should obey?
I personally don't obey the ceremonial laws of the Jews because I'm not under that covenant. But the two that Jesus stated in Matthew, encompasses the 10 commandments:
Matthew 22:36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
So is that what you mean by the Mosaic Law?
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The law was given to lead us to Christ.
Christ is the only one who ever kept the law
It was given to expose our sin. not to tell us how to live.
Sadly we have to many who are like the jews..
1 Timothy 1:7
desiring to be teachers of the law, understanding neither what they say nor the things which they affirm.
Christ is the only one who ever kept the law
It was given to expose our sin. not to tell us how to live.
Sadly we have to many who are like the jews..
1 Timothy 1:7
desiring to be teachers of the law, understanding neither what they say nor the things which they affirm.
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In Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the law leads us to Christ because it teaches us how to know him, or in other words, how to have a relationship with him, but it does not lead us to Christ so that we can then reject everything he taught and go back to being workers of lawlessness.
In Deuteronomy 30:11-14, God's word says that His law is not too difficult to keep and Romans 10:5-8 references that passage as the word of faith that we proclaim, so that is the word of faith that you deny. In 1 John 5:3, to love God is to keep His commandments, which are not burdensome, so you are also denying that anyone has ever loved God and that his commandments are not burdensome. Furthermore, you're also denying the many verses that speak about countless people who kept God's law, such as those in Joshua 22:1-3, Luke 1:5-6, Revelation 14:12, and Revelation 22:14.
It is impossible to only teach what is unrighteous without also teaching what is righteous by contrast.
Jesus, his disciples, and every Christians between the resurrection of Jesus and the inclusion of Gentiles were all Torah observant Jews. Moreover, most of the books of the Bible were written by and/or to Jews. Paul never stopped identify as a Jew (Acts 21:39, 22:3), and in 1 Corinthians 11:1, we are instructed to be imitators of Paul as he is an imitator of Christ, so we are told to be imitators of a Jew.
In 1 Timothy 1:3-8, it is not speaking against teaching the law, but against following those who are teaching it improperly, especially because verse 8 contrasts that with saying that the law is good if it is used properly.
In Deuteronomy 30:11-14, God's word says that His law is not too difficult to keep and Romans 10:5-8 references that passage as the word of faith that we proclaim, so that is the word of faith that you deny. In 1 John 5:3, to love God is to keep His commandments, which are not burdensome, so you are also denying that anyone has ever loved God and that his commandments are not burdensome. Furthermore, you're also denying the many verses that speak about countless people who kept God's law, such as those in Joshua 22:1-3, Luke 1:5-6, Revelation 14:12, and Revelation 22:14.
It is impossible to only teach what is unrighteous without also teaching what is righteous by contrast.
Jesus, his disciples, and every Christians between the resurrection of Jesus and the inclusion of Gentiles were all Torah observant Jews. Moreover, most of the books of the Bible were written by and/or to Jews. Paul never stopped identify as a Jew (Acts 21:39, 22:3), and in 1 Corinthians 11:1, we are instructed to be imitators of Paul as he is an imitator of Christ, so we are told to be imitators of a Jew.
In 1 Timothy 1:3-8, it is not speaking against teaching the law, but against following those who are teaching it improperly, especially because verse 8 contrasts that with saying that the law is good if it is used properly.
The Mosaic Law consists of the laws that God gave to Israel through Moses as a mediator, which has 613 laws, ten of which are the Ten Commandments. However, even when the law was first given through Moses, there was not a single person who was required to keep all of them, and not even Jesus kept the laws in regard to giving birth or to having a period. Some laws were only for the King, the High Priest, priests, judges, men, women, children, those who are married, those who have servants, those who have animals, those who have tzaraat, those who are living in the land, and those who are strangers living among them, while others were given to everyone. For example, Israelites who were not priests were not permitted to follow the laws that were given only to the Levities, which make up a large portion of the 613 laws. So understanding which laws we should be obeying is a matter of careful study and the leading of the Spirit.
My first problem with that statement is that it is not defined by the Bible. The Bible never gives a list of which are part of the category of ceremonial law and never even refers to that as being a category of law. If a group of people were to create lists of which laws they consider to be ceremonial, then they would end a wide variety of lists and none of those people should interpret the authors of the Bible as referring to a list of laws that they just created. In other words, even if the authors of the Bible had spoke against obeying ceremonial laws, then would be misunderstanding them without being able to establish that the list of laws that we have in mind is identical to the list that they had in mind. For example, I've spoken with a number of people who consider everything but the Ten Commandments to be ceremonial laws while others disagree about whether or not laws like those in regard to marriage or the command to keep the Sabbath holy are ceremonial law. The only reason why it matters whether or not a law is ceremonial is because some people have arbitrarily decided that if they personally consider a law to be ceremonial, then that gives them the freedom not to follow what Christ taught his followers to follow.
My second problem with that statement is that the New Covenant involves God putting the Mosaic Law in our minds and writing it on our hearts (Jeremiah 31:33).
If you think that we should obey the greatest two commandments, then you should also think that we should obey the rest of the Mosaic Law that hangs on them. For example, if we love God and our neighbor, then we won't commit things like adultery, theft, murder, and idolatry, but we also won't commit kidnapping, rape, favoritism, and so forth for the rest of the Mosaic Law.
My first problem with that statement is that it is not defined by the Bible. The Bible never gives a list of which are part of the category of ceremonial law and never even refers to that as being a category of law. If a group of people were to create lists of which laws they consider to be ceremonial, then they would end a wide variety of lists and none of those people should interpret the authors of the Bible as referring to a list of laws that they just created. In other words, even if the authors of the Bible had spoke against obeying ceremonial laws, then would be misunderstanding them without being able to establish that the list of laws that we have in mind is identical to the list that they had in mind. For example, I've spoken with a number of people who consider everything but the Ten Commandments to be ceremonial laws while others disagree about whether or not laws like those in regard to marriage or the command to keep the Sabbath holy are ceremonial law. The only reason why it matters whether or not a law is ceremonial is because some people have arbitrarily decided that if they personally consider a law to be ceremonial, then that gives them the freedom not to follow what Christ taught his followers to follow.
My second problem with that statement is that the New Covenant involves God putting the Mosaic Law in our minds and writing it on our hearts (Jeremiah 31:33).
If you think that we should obey the greatest two commandments, then you should also think that we should obey the rest of the Mosaic Law that hangs on them. For example, if we love God and our neighbor, then we won't commit things like adultery, theft, murder, and idolatry, but we also won't commit kidnapping, rape, favoritism, and so forth for the rest of the Mosaic Law.
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[Rom 3:20 KJV] 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.
διότι ἐξ ἔργων νόμου οὐ δικαιωθήσεται πᾶσα σὰρξ ἐνώπιον αὐτοῦ διὰ γὰρ νόμου ἐπίγνωσις ἁμαρτίας
How as out the works of the command not any flesh afore him will be justifying, since of the command the notice the wrong.
I wonder if the works of the law means something other than obeying the law. It sounds like enforcement of the law.
διότι ἐξ ἔργων νόμου οὐ δικαιωθήσεται πᾶσα σὰρξ ἐνώπιον αὐτοῦ διὰ γὰρ νόμου ἐπίγνωσις ἁμαρτίας
How as out the works of the command not any flesh afore him will be justifying, since of the command the notice the wrong.
I wonder if the works of the law means something other than obeying the law. It sounds like enforcement of the law.
In Acts 5:32, the Spirit has been given to those who obey God, so obedience to God is part of the way to receive the Spirit, however, Galatians 3:1-2 denies that "works of the law" are part of the way to receive the Spirit, therefore that phrase does not refer to obedience to God. In Romans 3:27-31, Paul contrasted a law of works with a law of faith, so works of the law are of works while he said that our faith upholds God's law, so it is of faith, and a law that our faith upholds can't be referring to the same thing as the works of the law that are not of faith in Galatians 3:10-12. God is trustworthy, therefore His law is also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), so the way to rely on God is by obediently relying on His instructions, it is contradictory to think that we should rely on God, but not on His instructions, and to deny that God's instructions are of faith is to deny the faithfulness/trustworthiness of God.
We have been set free from the law that we were bound to which judges that we should die if we fail to obey it, by a greater law that judges us to have already died in Christ, if we believe. Your position is that we were set free from what? It seems that you've interpreted that we are set free from our bondage of sin rather than our bondage to sin that leads to death.
Yet, I trust that you would agree that, because we are now dead to sin, does not translate that we die in order to sin, as you suggest some must otherwise believe if they don't believe as you do.
8Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with Him. 9For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, He cannot die again; death no longer has dominion over Him. 10The death He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life He lives, He lives to God. 11So you too must count yourselves dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
Christ died to sin once for all... certainly doesn't translate that Jesus had sinned before He died so, there is something you are missing about what it actually does mean.
Yet, I trust that you would agree that, because we are now dead to sin, does not translate that we die in order to sin, as you suggest some must otherwise believe if they don't believe as you do.
8Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with Him. 9For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, He cannot die again; death no longer has dominion over Him. 10The death He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life He lives, He lives to God. 11So you too must count yourselves dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
Christ died to sin once for all... certainly doesn't translate that Jesus had sinned before He died so, there is something you are missing about what it actually does mean.
lol. Gods people do nto go back to lawlessness. They have truly repented and would never go back
So you think you are sinless? You have kep the law since birth?
because that is what is required for you to be saved by keeping the law.
Stumble in one point, and your guilty
Thats not true. Jesus told us how. To love the lord our God with all our might, and our neighbors.. in these TWO commands are all the law and prophets.
This is what true righteousness looks like. Agape love, even to our enemy.
Only God did this. And no law is going to show you how to do this
paul later helped by telling us to keep our minds on the things of the spirit..
Paul said the law was our tutor. To bring us to christ. But after the tutor has completed its job, we are no longer in need of a tutor.
He law can not help you. If your a child of God and truly saved it did what it was supposed to do
Now learn to obey the law of Christ, the law of love
yes. You proved my point
Stop teaching it improperly. Because you do not understand it.
The law is great when used properly. To lead people to christ.
So you think you are sinless? You have kep the law since birth?
because that is what is required for you to be saved by keeping the law.
Stumble in one point, and your guilty
Thats not true. Jesus told us how. To love the lord our God with all our might, and our neighbors.. in these TWO commands are all the law and prophets.
This is what true righteousness looks like. Agape love, even to our enemy.
Only God did this. And no law is going to show you how to do this
paul later helped by telling us to keep our minds on the things of the spirit..
Paul said the law was our tutor. To bring us to christ. But after the tutor has completed its job, we are no longer in need of a tutor.
He law can not help you. If your a child of God and truly saved it did what it was supposed to do
Now learn to obey the law of Christ, the law of love
yes. You proved my point
Stop teaching it improperly. Because you do not understand it.
The law is great when used properly. To lead people to christ.
Someone who disregarded everything that their tutor taught them after they completed their job would be missing the whole point of a tutor and would need to go back for a remedial education. In 1 John 3:4-10, those who do not practice righteousness in obedience to the Mosaic Law are not children of God, and in Romans 8:4-14, those who are born again of the Spirit are contrasted with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to the Mosaic Law. In Matthew 22:36-40, Christ summarized the Mosaic Law as being about how to love God and our neighbor, so it is the Law of Love.
Teaching people to repent and obey the Mosaic Law in accordance with the promise and with spreading the Gospel is not teaching it improperly, but just the opposite. Christ spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey the Mosaic Law by word and by example, so the Mosaic Law does not lead us to Christ so that we can then reject everything he taught and go back to living lawlessly.
Teaching people to repent and obey the Mosaic Law in accordance with the promise and with spreading the Gospel is not teaching it improperly, but just the opposite. Christ spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey the Mosaic Law by word and by example, so the Mosaic Law does not lead us to Christ so that we can then reject everything he taught and go back to living lawlessly.
Someone who disregarded everything the tutor said to them would not have graduated.. They would still be in need of a tutor.
many people think they are there when they are not
And moses said
Cursed is the one who does not confirm and obey every word of this law
Paul repeated this when he said that NO ONE can be justified by the law. Because Cursed is the one who does not obey every word.
James reiterated it when he said if we keep the whole law. Yet stumble in one point, we are guilty.
many people think they are there when they are not
And moses said
Cursed is the one who does not confirm and obey every word of this law
Paul repeated this when he said that NO ONE can be justified by the law. Because Cursed is the one who does not obey every word.
James reiterated it when he said if we keep the whole law. Yet stumble in one point, we are guilty.
