What is a church?

[GWH]

The church is the body of born again believers who serve God and his will towards mankind.
Not only behind the pulpit or in the meeting place but have given their lives to God's authority.
Opposing evil, demonstrating kindness and mercy emphasizing love being the greatest gift.
Not willing that any should perish but all come to know Christ Jesus. For this is the heart and work of the father.

It really took me by surprise to see some say that baptism is not necessary....if Jesus included it in the commission then it should be so.
That's not my opinion that's a fact.
Your and my salvation stops at the gate and it's up to the Lord Jesus if you enter in or not. Do you really want to explain why you thought baptism was not necessary when you had every opportunity to be baptized.
Jesus himself being baptized are you above your master? Not saying it's a salvation issue but then again Jesus made it a issue.

"baptism is not necessary....Not saying it's a salvation issue"

You answered your own question.

The issue is that the Bible does not explain a doctrine in detail in one passage, so it is necessary to connect dots.

"That's not my opinion that's a fact." :^)

The truth is that the Lord's Supper and water baptism are optional rites that are meaningful traditions, not sacraments,
and although most Christians want to observe them, they are not part of the kerygma, so we should not be anal
(perhaps legalistic is a more biblical term) about them.

 

[DJT_47]

"baptism is not necessary....Not saying it's a salvation issue"

You answered your own question.

The issue is that the Bible does not explain a doctrine in detail in one passage, so it is necessary to connect dots.

"That's not my opinion that's a fact." :^)

The truth is that the Lord's Supper and water baptism are optional rites that are meaningful traditions, not sacraments,
and although most Christians want to observe them, they are not part of the kerygma, so we should not be anal
(perhaps legalistic is a more biblical term) about them.

Baptism is not necessary? Optional? You are completely contrary to the simple words of many scriptures.

 

[Leastofall]

"baptism is not necessary....Not saying it's a salvation issue"

You answered your own question.

The issue is that the Bible does not explain a doctrine in detail in one passage, so it is necessary to connect dots.

"That's not my opinion that's a fact." :^)

The truth is that the Lord's Supper and water baptism are optional rites that are meaningful traditions, not sacraments,
and although most Christians want to observe them, they are not part of the kerygma, so we should not be anal
(perhaps legalistic is a more biblical term) about them.

"baptism is not necessary....Not saying it's a salvation issue"

You answered your own question.

The issue is that the Bible does not explain a doctrine in detail in one passage, so it is necessary to connect dots.

"That's not my opinion that's a fact." :^)

The truth is that the Lord's Supper and water baptism are optional rites that are meaningful traditions, not sacraments,
and although most Christians want to observe them, they are not part of the kerygma, so we should not be anal
(perhaps legalistic is a more biblical term) about them.

Well friend I'm sure I have heard of many reasons and examples of scripture that show baptism not being necessary.
My point is the king has commanded us to baptise and be baptized.
If we can't do or won't do the little things how can we be trusted with bigger things?
Now you mentioned about the last supper and the communion of it not necessary when Jesus said to remember him.
I suppose some can pick and chose but is that what we're suppose to do?

 

[DJT_47]

Well friend I'm sure I have heard of many reasons and examples of scripture that show baptism not being necessary.
My point is the king has commanded us to baptise and be baptized.
If we can't do or won't do the little things how can we be trusted with bigger things?
Now you mentioned about the last supper and the communion of it not necessary when Jesus said to remember him.
I suppose some can pick and chose but is that what we're suppose to do?

Why would he command us to baptize if unnecessary?

Mk 16:15-16

15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.


Pretty clear what the Lord said here and the implication of doing and not doing.

 

[wattie]

Why would he command us to baptize if unnecessary?

Mk 16:15-16

15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.


Pretty clear what the Lord said here and the implication of doing and not doing.

Like has been said before .. salvation is dependent on belief or unbelief.. not on baptism.

The condition for not being converted in this is unbelief.

Also.. He that believeth and is baptized will be saved.. yes! Some one is most certainly saved having done both.. but the condition isn't meaning both have to be in place.

Belief.. is what leads to salvation. They are saved because of the belief.

The book of John has belief as the pre-requisite all thru it.

This has been thrashed to death.

 

[GWH]

Baptism is not necessary? Optional? You are completely contrary to the simple words of many scriptures.

Then why did Leastofall write "Not saying it's a salvation issue" if that isn't right?

 

[DJT_47]

Like has been said before .. salvation is dependent on belief or unbelief.. not on baptism.

The condition for not being converted in this is unbelief.

Also.. He that believeth and is baptized will be saved.. yes! Some one is most certainly saved having done both.. but the condition isn't meaning both have to be in place.

Belief.. is what leads to salvation. They are saved because of the belief.

The book of John has belief as the pre-requisite all thru it.

This has been thrashed to death.

Like said before by Jesus salvation is based on belief + baptism

 

[GWH]

Well friend I'm sure I have heard of many reasons and examples of scripture that show baptism not being necessary.
My point is the king has commanded us to baptise and be baptized.
If we can't do or won't do the little things how can we be trusted with bigger things?
Now you mentioned about the last supper and the communion of it not necessary when Jesus said to remember him.
I suppose some can pick and chose but is that what we're suppose to do?

Well, we need to discern whether a teaching was meant only for the original disciples for that period of time in order to fulfill the Law and Prophets or for all disciples for the church era until the Second Coming and Judgement Day are fulfilled.

Water baptism was a NT era rite, but Paul taught that Spirit baptism is God's requirement for the church. (1CR 12:30)

Regarding the Lord's Supper, Paul said, "whenever" it is held, it should be as a memorial to Jesus. (1CR 11:25)

 

[DJT_47]

Well, we need to discern whether a teaching was meant only for the original disciples for that period of time in order to fulfill the Law and Prophets or for all disciples for the church era until the Second Coming and Judgement Day are fulfilled.

Water baptism was a NT era rite, but Paul taught that Spirit baptism is God's requirement for the church. (1CR 12:30)

Regarding the Lord's Supper, Paul said, "whenever" it is held, it should be as a memorial to Jesus. (1CR 11:25)

What exactly is "spirit baptism"? How does one become "spirit" baptized? What scriptures tell you how to be "spirit" baptized? There is a huge difference in receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit itself, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, as opposed to baptism of the Holy Spirit. One of these was unique and anomalous, serving a particular purpose but not the norm, and the other was and still is the norm and achievable today.

 

[GWH]

What exactly is "spirit baptism"? How does one become "spirit" baptized? What scriptures tell you how to be "spirit" baptized? There is a huge difference in receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit itself, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, as opposed to baptism of the Holy Spirit. One of these was unique and anomalous, serving a particular purpose but not the norm, and the other was and still is the norm and achievable today.

HS baptism is 1CR 12:13.

At the moment of repentance/acceptance, God’s Holy Spirit (HS) enters believers’ spiritual hearts (RV 3:20), uniting them with God as heavenly Father (RM 8:9) and identifying them with Christ’s worldwide/catholic body or church (CL 1:18). As noted, Paul refers to the comparable moment for Abraham as spiritual circumcision. This manifold event is also called spiritual birth or baptism (1CR 12:13).

Confusion may arise from the fact that in Ephesians 4:5 Paul says there is only one baptism, but elsewhere the NT seems to refer to two types of baptism: one by water and another by the HS. In His “Great Commission” Jesus tied saving faith closely to the work of water baptism when He said “Make disciples of all nations, baptizing them” (MT 28:19). Yet, in 1 Corinthians 12:13 Paul wrote that “We were all baptized by one Spirit into one body.” This suggests that spirit baptism occurs at the moment of conversion, when the HS unites the new saint (saved sinner/soul) with Christ, because “if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.” (RM 8:9)

The indwelling of the HS may also be called the initial filling by the HS, because at the point of confession and conversion a person is cooperating fully with God. (See RM 6:3-7, GL 2:20) The evidence that a person has been baptized by God’s Spirit or included in Christ’s spiritual body is love in its myriad of forms (GL 5:22-23, JN 13:35).

Any confusion is resolved by understanding that the two types of baptism are united if baptism with water is viewed as a symbolic way of portraying baptism by the HS. The details for this work are vague, but the mode of immersion best portrays a Believer’s spiritual union with Christ in His death, burial and resurrection to eternal life (CL 2:12, RM 6:4). As a practical matter, a new Believer normally would be baptized by the local congregation of the catholic (worldwide) church in which he/she will want to participate as an acknowledged member. Water baptism symbolizes spiritual baptism.

 

[DJT_47]

HS baptism is 1CR 12:13.

At the moment of repentance/acceptance, God’s Holy Spirit (HS) enters believers’ spiritual hearts (RV 3:20), uniting them with God as heavenly Father (RM 8:9) and identifying them with Christ’s worldwide/catholic body or church (CL 1:18). As noted, Paul refers to the comparable moment for Abraham as spiritual circumcision. This manifold event is also called spiritual birth or baptism (1CR 12:13).

Confusion may arise from the fact that in Ephesians 4:5 Paul says there is only one baptism, but elsewhere the NT seems to refer to two types of baptism: one by water and another by the HS. In His “Great Commission” Jesus tied saving faith closely to the work of water baptism when He said “Make disciples of all nations, baptizing them” (MT 28:19). Yet, in 1 Corinthians 12:13 Paul wrote that “We were all baptized by one Spirit into one body.” This suggests that spirit baptism occurs at the moment of conversion, when the HS unites the new saint (saved sinner/soul) with Christ, because “if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.” (RM 8:9)

The indwelling of the HS may also be called the initial filling by the HS, because at the point of confession and conversion a person is cooperating fully with God. (See RM 6:3-7, GL 2:20) The evidence that a person has been baptized by God’s Spirit or included in Christ’s spiritual body is love in its myriad of forms (GL 5:22-23, JN 13:35).

Any confusion is resolved by understanding that the two types of baptism are united if baptism with water is viewed as a symbolic way of portraying baptism by the HS. The details for this work are vague, but the mode of immersion best portrays a Believer’s spiritual union with Christ in His death, burial and resurrection to eternal life (CL 2:12, RM 6:4). As a practical matter, a new Believer normally would be baptized by the local congregation of the catholic (worldwide) church in which he/she will want to participate as an acknowledged member. Water baptism symbolizes spiritual baptism.

The scriptures you quoted do not in any way support your claims. Nowhere do the scriptures say that upon belief/acceptance the spirit enters believers spiritual hearts. That is total nonsense because IT DOES NOT SAY THAT nor does the scriptures infer that anywhere! Once again, what scripture clearly and emphatically says how you receives the baptism of the Holy Spirit? And what scriptures clearly indicate this is how one is saved as the norm, opposed to the myriad of scriptures indicating water baptism is the means and the norm?

 

[GWH]

The scriptures you quoted do not in any way support your claims. Nowhere do the scriptures say that upon belief/acceptance the spirit enters believers spiritual hearts. That is total nonsense because IT DOES NOT SAY THAT nor does the scriptures infer that anywhere! Once again, what scripture clearly and emphatically says how you receives the baptism of the Holy Spirit? And what scriptures clearly indicate this is how one is saved as the norm, opposed to the myriad of scriptures indicating water baptism is the means and the norm?

THEY DO SAY THAT. IT MAKES PERFECT SENSE.

Re the "myriad" of scriptures you have in mind, again in case you did not see this:

We need to discern whether a teaching was meant only for the original disciples for that period of time in order to fulfill the Law and Prophets or for all disciples for the church era until the Second Coming and Judgement Day are fulfilled.

Water baptism was a NT era rite, but Paul taught that Spirit baptism is God's requirement for the church. (1CR 12:30)

Thus, water baptism is comparable to Sabbath law: they are optional and perhaps desirable,
but not mandatory in order to satisfy GRFS.

 

[DJT_47]

THEY DO SAY THAT. IT MAKES PERFECT SENSE.

Re the "myriad" of scriptures you have in mind, again in case you did not see this:

We need to discern whether a teaching was meant only for the original disciples for that period of time in order to fulfill the Law and Prophets or for all disciples for the church era until the Second Coming and Judgement Day are fulfilled.

Water baptism was a NT era rite, but Paul taught that Spirit baptism is God's requirement for the church. (1CR 12:30)

Thus, water baptism is comparable to Sabbath law: they are optional and perhaps desirable,
but not mandatory in order to satisfy GRFS.

What exactly is spirit baptism?? Of the conversions cited in Acts, who was spirit baptized as opposed to water baptized, which by the way, is how one is baptized into Christ and added to the body of believers which is the church, receives the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and has his sins removed?

 

[Leastofall]

I believe that when Jesus was baptized by John the presence of the Holy Spirit in the form of a dove witness to who Jesus was.
So in this act of water baptism we see the symbol of the Holy Spirit presence also.
And immediately after Jesus was led by the Holy Spirit into the wilderness where he was tempted.
Did the dove just fly towards the wilderness and Jesus followed or was Jesus compelled by the urgening of the Holy Spirit.
Here you have the indwelling. All in one.

My son is blessed to have a very important job. He has proven his abilities and won many awards and has advanced in his position.
When he goes to meetings to discuss what ever and present the wherefore he is required to wear a suit and tie.
Not that it enhances his ability or gives him a greater stature but just a requirement that is asked of him and all the men who attend.

Has baptism ever been thought of as the first act of obedience. Certainly Jesus had nothing to repent of yet under went the baptism of repentance . John was even shocked by this this saying...he had need to be baptized by Jesus.

My apologies to whom started this thread for some what derailing the what is the church theme.
As a single brick in the church of Christ I cannot let things go like this for it weakens the church and it's design as Jesus intended.

 

[GWH]

What exactly is spirit baptism?? Of the conversions cited in Acts, who was spirit baptized as opposed to water baptized, which by the way, is how one is baptized into Christ and added to the body of believers which is the church, receives the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and has his sins removed?

I answered that already, but again: Spirit baptism is the moment of repentance/acceptance, when God’s Holy Spirit (HS=Jesus) enters believers’ spiritual hearts (RV 3:20), uniting them with God as heavenly Father (RM 8:9) and identifying them with Christ’s body or church (1CR 12:13). This moment is also called spiritual birth or being born again (JN 3:3-7).

 

[DJT_47]

I answered that already, but again: Spirit baptism is the moment of repentance/acceptance, when God’s Holy Spirit (HS=Jesus) enters believers’ spiritual hearts (RV 3:20), uniting them with God as heavenly Father (RM 8:9) and identifying them with Christ’s body or church (1CR 12:13). This moment is also called spiritual birth or being born again (JN 3:3-7).

It isn't, and there is no scripture anywhere that says or infers that including those scriptures you quoted!!!!

 

[GWH]

It isn't, and there is no scripture anywhere that says or infers that including those scriptures you quoted!!!!

There is no scripture that says what those scriptures I quoted say?!
Are you trolling me?

 

[Johnjunior]

The church is the people it has always been the people. It started with Israel and if you want to be a part of the church just do what Israel has to do and you will be saved at the time appointed.

Acts 7: 37 - 38
37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.

38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

 

[DJT_47]

There is no scripture that says what those scriptures I quoted say?!
Are you trolling me?

No, I'm simply telling you that you don't know what you're talking about

 

[presidente]

Agree, but would add it's also consisting of local, autonomous, congregations with local leadership, i.e; elders, and workers, i.e., decons, and ministers or preachers of the word, and is the body of Christ.

I'd also like to add that Paul and Barnabas appointed elders in every church, as we see in Acts 14, so the churches existed before the elders were appointed in them.