What do you believe and why do you believe it?

[TLC209]

Do I have Joy? Yes I do. Although not all the time to be honest. But when I do, it is genuine and authentic. When I self-identified as a Christian I also had joy. But it was the joy of a drunken man. I've sobered up a bit since then.

The God-condoned slavery in the Bible is a big problem. Did you not read what it said in Exodus 21? I can't support that. Ever. So there is plenty of stuff holding me back. A long list. Though it looks like one has been eroded - an inconsistency about Judas' death.

Another thing occurred to me this morning. Why should I believe in a God who can't even get basic Astrophysics correct? Genesis says that plants were made on Day 3 and the Sun on Day 4, which is the wrong order. If a Biblical Day is not 24 hours and corresponds to a vast era of time, how were the plants photosynthesising?

Lol youre too funny. I already answered that question about the plants. His ways are much higher than ours. For instance how does a man who is dead for 3 days (Lazerus) come back to life? Doesnt a body decompose and all the other biological effects? Its something only God can do outside the natural laws. God created all the laws, so He is able to be outside of those laws. For instance Time. He is above time.

So you shouldnt be so puzzled, I mean how did he create humans from dirt!

So you were drinking heavily when you became a Christian? That just further brings me doubt that you were ever a Christian. Much less that you know what Joy is. Just by your definiton of it. Drinking has never once brought me joy! It has made me happy, had plenty of good times, but JOY? NEVER.

Slavery. The scripture you point out. Is God the one beating the slave or is it the Jew who was beating the slave? And was the rules made to reduce this behavior? And did the Jews suffer for this atroocities along with many others? Jews were themselves slaves correct? Not to mention the modern day holocaust.

God sees everything and His judgement is true. The born again believer who walks with Jesus does not need to have fear of Gods judgement.

So to answer your question as to why should you believe in God, well the contrary awaits you judgement and severe punishment. Because you have no excuse for rejecting God.

God is not a respector of persons, and good works will not save you. Not sure if you pay your taxes, or help people, or whatever you may attribute as moral or done by your good character. It shows you have manners and you like to treat others with respect and expect the same. Your good conduct will not excuse your rejection of Jesus Christ the Son of God.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

A thought has just occurred to me. Why would Judas want to buy a field? Was he a farmer or something?

I do not know the answers to your questions.

However, if we look at the text of Matt 27:7 and Acts 1:18 in the Greek, we find further corroboration of the fact that there were two separate purchases of land.

In Matt 27:7, the chief priests bought the potter's field. The word "bought" is the Greek word agorazó (from 58 / agorá, "the ancient marketplace, town-center"). Agorazó is defined as to make purchases in the marketplace ("agora").

In Acts 1:18, Judas acquired (Greek ktaomai ) the property. Ktaomai means to acquire, get or procure a thing for oneself. Judas did not acquire the property through the open marketplace (but we know he acquired the property through his ill-gotten gains ... the reward of iniquity through his thieving ways).


In Matt 27:7, the chief priests bought the field of the potter. The word "field" is the Greek word agros … a plain field; raw undeveloped land.

In Acts 1:18, Judas acquired a field (no mention of the potter). The word "field" is the Greek word chorion … not the same as the agros purchased by the chief priests. Chorion is land which is cultivated, developed; an estate. Chorion refers to land which is a larger tract than agros. In a couple places in Scripture chorion refers to estates of rich men.


In Matt 27:8, the field was called "the field of blood" (Greek agros haimatos). The reason this field is called "the field of blood" is that it was a field bought with the price Judas received for betraying innocent blood (the blood money Judas returned to the chief priests).

In Acts 1:18, the field was called "the field of blood" a similar wording to what we read in Matt 27:8. However, in Acts 1:18 the words "field of blood" are the Greek word Hakeldamach. The reason this field is called "the field of blood" is that the blood of Judas was actually spilled there.

 

[Spectrox]

Horrendously busy at the moment people. Should be able to get back to it on Monday.

 

[Gregoryp]

I generally find, people who declare there is no God, are usually doing something they should be doing. This is there out, to declare there is no God, so they can carry on sinning. Truth is, there is a God, as I know him personally, and have experienced to many blessings to think otherwise. "Man is my enemy . Every knee shall bow, every tongue shall confess"

 

[FollowHisSteps]

Would Jesus preach death and resurrection unless He would do it and was God?
The disciples knew the cost, and only if it happened would they pay. They died rejoicing knowing they knew Him

 

[Journeyman]

You may have read some of my responses already about situational ethics and maximising wellbeing and minimising harm? That is the standard upon which I judge moral claims.

Maximising wellbeing while minimising harm? Hmmm....now who do I know who fits that description? People who are concerned with those things would be drawn toward Jesus, not away from him. :hug:
His standard of ethics is absolute.

There were inconsistent things in it and sometimes outright contradictions - the differing accounts of the death of Judaps in Matthew 27 and Acts 1.

I went to a house once, where a woman had been deceased for some time. The smell was sickening. She was sitting on her couch and was so bloated she was ready to explode.

The 4 differing accounts of the resurrection - I couldn't honestly put all the information contained within them and make a sensible narrative. Different women present. Different numbers of angels/men in white garments. An Earthquake in Matthew but not reported in the others!

Absence of information in one account doesn't make another account untrue. For instance, if you and I and a 3rd person went to a football game and I told someone I went to a football game with you, that's true.

The difference between Yahweh and Jesus in the OT and NT is fairly stark. God is supposed to be unchanging and yet Jesus changes things. They come across as different Gods.

They do seem contrary, but the scriptures are spiritually discerned. People who ignore this truth fall into error.

I was young and naive at the time but I accepted these claims as I was growing up in the Church of England. I no longer believe them because I have grown up a bit since then and need better evidence. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Well, if you had witnessed the resurrection of Jesus first hand you would have it, but thankfully that's unnecessary.

It sounds like you had legitimate questions at least about apparent differences from old to new testaments, but weren't given logical answers from church leaders. That happened to me too and I began to see that "organized Christianity" has strayed far from Jesus's teachings. You
sought answers from people who couldn't possibly steer you in the right direction.

 

[Spectrox]

I make no threats. If you feel threatened it is because you know you are opposed to what God has declared. It is the goodness of God that places you jeopardy.

All of creation testifies to God. You exist therefore God exists. Romans chapter one deals with the situation ingreat precision.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Of course you make threats. And you hide behind the words of the Bible to do it. Now I understand why you feel the need to do that - I did when I was a Christian. Explain your rationale behind your assertion that "you know you are opposed to what God has declared." Knowledge is "demonstrable true belief". For me to have knowledge of that, I would need to be able to demonstrate it to others or you would have to demonstrate it to me.

 

[calibob]

Of course you make threats. And you hide behind the words of the Bible to do it. Now I understand why you feel the need to do that - I did when I was a Christian. Explain your rationale behind your assertion that "you know you are opposed to what God has declared." Knowledge is "demonstrable true belief". For me to have knowledge of that, I would need to be able to demonstrate it to others or you would have to demonstrate it to me.

Do you believe in the Big Bang Theory? Do you believe in string theory? Do you understand if there was a big bang when God said let there be light and there was light it would make some noise? If the string theory is ever proved correct it would also prove that spiritual dimentions may also exist?

Does everything have to be seen and measured if it is real? If so, measure love!

 

[FollowHisSteps]

Of course you make threats. And you hide behind the words of the Bible to do it. Now I understand why you feel the need to do that - I did when I was a Christian. Explain your rationale behind your assertion that "you know you are opposed to what God has declared." Knowledge is "demonstrable true belief". For me to have knowledge of that, I would need to be able to demonstrate it to others or you would have to demonstrate it to me.

We can all hide behind our positions, because our position are the sum of our lifes journey.
Some feel life is a betrayal of their ambitions, except our ambitions are built upon what our
society offers. So their statement at the end, I did it my way.
Unfortunately the "my way" is a statement of poverty. We are grass in a field, one very much
like the other. Our nobility is to rise above and grasp the much deeper truth that love is eternal,
the shinning light that defines that which is eternal and that which is a passing desire.

I have seen what happens when love takes hold, or when bitterness takes hold.
You would much prefer to see love and its warmth than bitterness and its hurt and death that
surrounds it. God bless you

 

[Spectrox]

I generally find, people who declare there is no God, are usually doing something they should be doing. This is there out, to declare there is no God, so they can carry on sinning. Truth is, there is a God, as I know him personally, and have experienced to many blessings to think otherwise. "Man is my enemy . Every knee shall bow, every tongue shall confess"

I have never made a positive claim that there is no God. I don't currently accept God claims made by others. There is a difference. I did not abandon Christianity to carry on sinning. I abandoned it because it stopped making sense. Please can you explain how you know God personally? How does that differ from knowing another person?

 

[Spectrox]

Yea, but the way I see it now you can not, because I have been reborn in His Spirit, now I see Him more clearly in EVERY SINGLE detail to a degree it's ALL Him, no matter how small down we are able to zoom in on His creation the greater complexity we see, and no matter how far we are able to look out His glory is magnified. You see these things as proof against Him, I see them screaming His glory, because they are.

Seriously though, and this is the biggest point I'm trying to relay, and is the very reason I haven't jumped in to "debate" any of these objections you're bringing up. You can not find God in the creation, because God transcends the creation, I think it all points to God, ALL of it, but in the flesh you reject it with all you can, and that on top of the fact that we are all taught we are insignificant globs of an accidental collection of meaningless cells, flying around on a speck of dust in a universe with no purpose, no real point, other than what we assign to it, and we can assign some "great" things, but what happens when I say that I reject everything you just said, I believe that his "well being", falls right under feeding my dogs, and WAY under my well being and that of my families. I now believe my "well being", is better served by killing you and taking everything that's yours. I could do a lot with your stuff. Who are you to tell me and all my buddies who have a "standard which has been created", which we created, who are you to tell me I'm wrong?

My standard of morality comes from an understanding of what it looks like to live in a co-operative society. Maximum wellbeing to myself AND others. This is also means minimum harm. Look Jimbone. Your faith clearly works for you and I'm happy for you. It just didn't work for me.

 

[Spectrox]

The audacity of man, to defy God and commit evil, and then blame God for the evils of the world.
This thread has only stood to prove that atheism is more a religion than any other; Misrepresenting what science demonstrates and twisting the scripture to mean what they indeed do not.
One straw man after another.
How long will admins allow a person to come in here and ask what a person believes and then argue with them about it. It's an attempt to dissuade others from their faith. An attempt to proselytise folks into the faith of the nihilist. A poorly constructed religion of those who conflate the testing, and observations; bending them to fit a presupposed hypothesis.

Give me an example of where I have misrepresented what Science says.
Give me an example of where I have twisted the words of scripture.
I recognise the Admins are being generous allowing me to post here. They probably value free speech. They probably also recognise that if the creator of the cosmos really is on your side, then you should be able to withstand a bit of scrutiny from unbelievers.

 

[calibob]

The purpose of life is to worship God! If not we are just oddities of nature. If we came from nothing and there is no future beyond death. What's the point of living?

 

[calibob]

Give me an example of where I have misrepresented what Science says.
Give me an example of where I have twisted the words of scripture.
I recognise the Admins are being generous allowing me to post here. They probably value free speech. They probably also recognise that if the creator of the cosmos really is on your side, then you should be able to withstand a bit of scrutiny from unbelievers.

Science is a false religion like Astrology, Numerology, Shamanism, Wicken, and tree hugging.

 

[Spectrox]

I rather like this analogy.
Just as you can see that I am right 100% of the time in finding the dime, and therefore you recognize that I have some special knowledge or ability to unerringly select the correct cup, so it is with Scripture, and experience knowing God.

You are UNABLE to see the red cup. You cannot understand HOW I can see something that you are SURE is not there, namely color.

You have to be given NEW eyes to see the color. Just as you have to be given a NEW heart to understand the Scriptures, and experience God.

But God HAS given you enough knowledge to know He exists and that you must seek Him. He has written history in advance. He has shown you the indescribably complex DESIGN in ALL of matter and nature. He has put people like those here, and elsewhere in your life that have had their lives COMPLETELY changed by His indwelling Holy Spirit.

Every time you are given THE Gospel unto Salvation, it is like electric shock paddles jolted into your dead heart, to bring a NEW heart to life. We do NOT want to hear those awful words "ok, that's enough, time of death...." Please respond ;

CLEAR!!!!!! Here comes the shock:

THE Gospel unto Salvation:
God wrapped Himself in human flesh in the form of His Son, Jesus the Messiah. Conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of a virgin. He suffered, was crucified, and died to pay OUR sin debt. He was raised to life from the grave to prove He had defeated death. If you confess Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that His Father resurrected Him to Life on the 3rd day, you WILL be saved. You will be filled, and sealed with the Holy Spirit, who will empower ALL to turn from their sins. The sin of adultery, lying, stealing, homosexuality, gossip, slander, drunkenness, covetousness, etc... And most importantly the sin of DEAD works, or a moral life in an attempt to EARN Salvation. He will also equip you to love like He did and do good works for HIS Glory.

Thank you for liking my demonstration of something unseen. Not sure yours works as a demonstration. New eyes? I don't get it. My demonstration doesn't need for my eyes to be replaced or changed in any way! It's a statistical demo that shows that what you are seeing is very likely to exist.

 

[Spectrox]

Ok, but my point is what seems wrong looking back with todays judgement is not the same. People put themselves into slavery to pay a debt (OT). And those slaves were to be treated as family and freed after the debt was paid. It wasn't a lifelong ownership. As far as the verse you pointed out,yes, that was a law on the book but if you killed a slave, you were killed, so I'm certain that did not happen (beaten to or near death). We wouldn't crucify people today, we wouldn't stone people. We wouldn't set people on fire at the stake like the Catholic church did and Protestants in periods of history. We wouldn't flog people. All of that we see as barbaric behavior today. But that's judging by todays standards. We don't hang people anymore. Perhaps we'll look back one day and realize abortion for the barbaric practice it is. And someone will say "how did you ever let that happen"?!

This is my point, Kayla. Surely God is timeless and perfectly moral? God could have made one of his 10 commandments "Thou shall not own another human being as property." That would have helped many slaves throughout history. There's no vision for the abolition of slavery in the Bible. It's missing.

 

[Spectrox]

The Bible says there was light before the sun was created. I'm guessing it was enough to make plants grow. And I believe it was an actual 7 days,not a long period of time.

Do you at least acknowledge that what you have said goes against the vast amount of scientific understanding? That The Sun was created before the Earth which formed from an acretion disc?

 

[Spectrox]

Yea but I see no reason to include others at all. Why are they important to me? What if I not only don't care for you I actually hate you and want what you have, after all if that's how I feel and what I know to be true, then it's not too far fetched for me to assume you got all of your stuff by taking it too, that's how we do it.

See if man is on the top rung of the moral latter, then the morality just depends on the person your talking to. All this "natural law", and even the notion of an objective moral at all, if there is no God, is honestly absurd. If there is no "mind" outside of the human mind, that creates and defines what that morality is, then there can be no "objective" morality. Inanimate matter can not and does not create "law" in this way. It does not give rise to morality. This idea that because you think getting along is a good thing in a Godless universe with no purpose, "only blind and pitiless indifference" -Dawkins, that's a nice notion, it's a nice soft idea, but it's nothing more than your opinion in ultimate reality, and you can say "we can only thrive that way", and "we wouldn't like it", all you want, but when your whole argument can be pushed over by "so what?", then it might be time for a paradigm shift, and Jesus is calling you. Jesus is the TRUTH of all reality, and I know that seems so dumb to you, but it's true man. I understand how you see this "unseen" realm, the realm of the spirit. I get it we are born cut off from it. That is why you "don't see enough evidence to believe it", yet can't even define your own belief system for someone else to pick apart. You stand on nothing, for nothing, just a glob of mushy "whatever".

The point I'm trying to make here is not about your lack of ability to present a well thought out framework for your own worldview yet want to critique mine. Seems a bit empty, juvenile, and honestly very sad. You just can't see the shinning KING right in front of you calling you to "COME".

I am also sorry if I come off a bit harsh, but this is everything here man and you should think about it deeper than these surface level arguments suggest you are. Anyway have a great day man.

You too, Jimbone. I appreciate your efforts but remain unconvinced. I would have to unlearn everything I've learnt about The Bible and Science.

 

[Spectrox]

You may use logic and the scientific method if you want to explain reality - that is your choice -

but if I were you I would come up with better presuppositions - I challenged you and you just backed up the presuppositions - now you are saying science and logic come from the self-supporting evidence of technology and medicine

Technology: The A-bomb dropped on Hiroshima, the internet (that allows widespread mass pornography) or do you mean the the X-ray, the MRI, etc. --- How do you know which one is "good" or "evil"?

Medicine - Do you mean the cures for cancer being found or do you mean the Chinese mass-harvesting organs from prisoners and minorities (for profit) - Which is for the good of humanity? (It depends on your opinion - which comes from human reasoning - which came from random processes . . .)

Furthermore your first technique was just simply making an emotional statement with no substance - "starting to go down the rabbit hole of presuppositional apologetics - You really don't want to go down . . ."

You are conflating science with morality in all of the above. I agree the A-Bomb is horrendous - this was made possible by science. I also think The Spanish Inquisition was horrendous - this was made possible by Christianity.
Science is simply a method that yields the most consistently reliable results. It has no morality. It's up to humans to apply a good moral standard like the one I have suggested.

 

[calibob]

Thank you for liking my demonstration of something unseen. Not sure yours works as a demonstration. New eyes? I don't get it. My demonstration doesn't need for my eyes to be replaced or changed in any way! It's a statistical demo that shows that what you are seeing is very likely to exist.

That's the problem. You don't see the spiritual nature of life. All that you can believe in is what you can see and measure. Pray for help to the creator as you understand him if you believe that anything can exist that's greater than your understanding. Measure this???