What are you thoughts on Annihilation?

[Diakonos]

By the way, I agree with you a lot, but I will only respond to certain aspects of this comment.

are they "people" (men)

Yes. The beast is the Antichrist (the man of lawlessness (2 Thess 2:3). The false prophet is the one who testifies of him and encourages the world to worship him and his image.

This is why earlier in this thread I argued the difference between "spirit" and "soul". Mankind is "soul", while satan and his angels are "spirit".

Mankind has a spirit and a soul and a body (1 Thess 5:23). We are 3-fold in nature, as God is. We are created in his image and likeness.

- the angels including satan = (at least) 6000 years old so far, most likely older

Yes, they were actually present and rejoicing at the creation (Job 38:7), meaning they were created before the world we live in.

- the fallen's children (demons) = in prison since the flood (approx 4000yrs)

Demons were present in Jesus' day for sure, are the NT writer speak of demons and demonic activity as still present during the church age. To be more precise, the "angels that sinned" (Gen 6:4; 1 Pet 2:4, Jude 7-8) are the ones currently in prison, not the demons. Its a common assumption that fallen angels and demons are synonymous, but they are not. Angels can materialize, while demons seek embodiment (and tons of other differences).

adam (early man) = max. 930 years (and mankind has declined since)

- modern man = barely reaches 100-120 years

- a dog = 10-13 yrs

- a fly = 28 days


...and now, not to be gruesome, but imagine setting fire to each of these creatures starting from the fly and working our way up. How long would it take a fly to burn up compared to a dog...how long for a small dog compared to a modern man?

Of course, if we extrapolate this out imagine how long it would take for a modern man to burn up compared to a demon...then a demon compared to an angel.

Hell is not natural fire (which exists within time). It is God's eternal fire, which exists outside of the domain of time, in which nothing changes. A good picture of this is when God appeared to Moses in the burning bush:
“...the bush was burning with fire, yet the bush was not consumed.” (Exodus 3:2).
People's natural lifespan is irrelevant in Hell because they won't exist in the time domain anymore. It is their punishment for sinning against the eternal God. This should motivate us to seek the lost all the more. The reason people wince at the thought is because we think it sounds harsh of God to administer this justice...but in reality, we really don't realize how evil our rebellion is, and that we deserve eternal damnation. Yes...we really are that bad.

They are annihilated. Like chaff that blows in the wind, they are ash.

Malachi 4:3 (the day of the lord)
And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

Yes, these describe the first death, which is a shadow of the second death. Take a look at how the Bible describes both the first death and the second death. They are quite different. People often misapply verses about the first death, claiming that that are justifications of annihilation in hell, when in fact, they have nothing to do with hell.

Other than these, I agree. And you make some great points

 

[Laura798]

Gardenias, the red X means you disagree with a point someone ismaking. I stated a fact so your giving it a red x is very childish and immature— your speech and behavior gives away your immature faith and bitter spirit.

There are a number of denominations with the name Church of God …xyz — it’s not the one you named

 

[Laura798]

I was Church of God out of Seireville Tn for 20 yrs full member and your info is incorrect. They believe in an eternal conscious torment for devil,his angels and those who reject God til time is no more......[/QUOTE
There are several denominations with Church of God in their name— thats not it

 

[Gardenias]

Gardenias, the red X means you disagree with a point someone ismaking. I stated a fact so your giving it a red x is very childish and immature— your speech and behavior gives away your immature faith and bitter spirit.

I responded to COG believe in eternal forever damnation and torment . I was a member there for 20 yes.
Your tantrum is immature..... Lol

Your the one following a church that teaches false doctrine.

I'm not at all bitter and my faith is secure in Jesus and his literal word


Now I'll be immature and put you back on ignore.........no responda

 

[Laura798]

I responded to COG believe in eternal forever damnation and torment . I was a member there for 20 yes.
Your tantrum is immature..... Lol

Your the one following a church that teaches false doctrine.

I'm not at all bitter and my faith is secure in Jesus and his literal word


Now I'll be immature and put you back on ignore.........no responda

I've never mentioned where I attend church. I came to my beliefs by studying the bible for myself. And you are bitter and angry--just go back and read all of your negative posts. Nearly all are you saying negative things about those of us who believe that death is the penatly for sin, you make little to no attempt to have a rational discussion that is supported with facts and scripture.

This isn't a battle Gardenias-- taking your angst out on fellow believers is very unbecoming of a believer in Christ.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Yahshua said:
are they "people" (men)

Yes. The beast is the Antichrist (the man of lawlessness (2 Thess 2:3). The false prophet is the one who testifies of him and encourages the world to worship him and his image.

Yes.

Agreed.



Another thing to consider regarding this point, is that Revelation 19:20 states:


Berean Literal Bible
And the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet, the one having done the signs before him, by which he deceived those having received the mark of the beast and those worshiping its image. The two were cast living into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.

King James Bible
And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

 

[Runningman]

“And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.” (Revelation 20:10, NASB95)

The Greek word is βασανισθήσονται, which is written in the plural tense, meaning it is a plurality of people, and the action (torment) is being done to them.
That's what John wrote when he wrote this verse.

The lake of fire is a symbol of the second death. Bible interpretation needs consistency, so we can't have persons being tormented forever if they are put to death.

Revelation 21:8
8But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Hebrews 2:14
14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

A consistent interpretation is that death means death or else people have eternal life in hell. The weakness of the eternal torment doctrine is that death must be redefined to mean separation from God, those in hell have eternal life, but when it's convenient for eternal tormenters they require the lake of fire have a literal interpretation.

Also, I would note, 'forever and ever' is not always forever and ever in the Bible. There are examples of something saying to have lasted forever, but then it doesn't last forever. For brevity, I'll leave it at that and we can look at that more if you'd like.

 

[Gardenias]

PS I have been studying Seventh Day Adventist and while I don't agree with all they say, their positions to keep all of the 10 commandments 'Remember the Sabbath to keep it holy' is extremely compelling. I can't find anywhere in scripture that says that was abolished--God wrote the 10 commandments with his own Hand on tablets of stone, therefore they are eternal. My personal belief is we ought to do the same, but be like the 1st century Christians who met together DAILY. To conclude the Seventh Day Adventists are not a cult and hold more closely to the scriptures than many of the larger denominations.

Yours I believe!

 

[justbyfaith]

@Yahshua,

I assume that in a post above you were preaching that the devil will be completely annihilated also at some point?

My question: how do you interpret the following scripture?

Rev 20:10, And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Hebrews 2:14
14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

Consider what the word "destroy G2673" means, in Heb2:14 -


[quoting from BibleHub, under "Thayer's Greek Lexicon"]

"[...] to cause a person or a thing to have no further efficiency; to deprive of force, influence, power (A. V. bring to nought, make of none effect): τί, Romans 3:3; 1 Corinthians 1:28; τινα, 1 Corinthians 2:6 (but in passive); diabolic powers, 1 Corinthians 15:24 (Justin Martyr, Apology 2, 6); Antichrist, 2 Thessalonians 2:8; τόν θάνατον, 2 Timothy 1:10 (Epistle of Barnabas 5, 6 [ET]); τόν διάβολον, Hebrews 2:14; passive 1 Corinthians 15:26;"

-- https://biblehub.com/greek/2673.htm

 

[Diakonos]

To preface all of this, please first answer this: Are the first death and the second death
-different in nature
or
-same in nature?

The lake of fire is a symbol of the second death.

How do you know that it is a symbol?

A consistent interpretation is that death means death or else people have eternal life in hell.

Eternal life is in the Bible is not defined as "remaining conscious" or "awake" or "able to move" etc.

““This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.” (John 17:3)​

Knowing God forever is eternal life, not merely being awake or conscious.

 

[Runningman]

To preface all of this, please first answer this: Are the first death and the second death
-different in nature
or
-same in nature?

Same in nature, I'll try to briefly explain why I believe that.

First death is spiritual death, not separation from God:

Genesis 2:17
17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Adam and Eve did not physically die on the day they ate fruit, nor did God separate Himself from hem. He made clothes for them and continued interacting with their descendants through history.

Second death occurs after the first resurrection:

John 5:28-29
28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Revelation 20:14-15
14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

How do you know that it is a symbol?

Revelation 20:14 and Revelation 21:8 say the lake of fire is the second death.

Eternal life is in the Bible is not defined as "remaining conscious" or "awake" or "able to move" etc.

““This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.” (John 17:3)​

Knowing God forever is eternal life, not merely being awake or conscious.

"That they may know You" expresses the possibility of knowing God, not the guarantee of knowing God. Having eternal life, then, means having the possibility of knowing God. Did people in hell have the possibility of knowing God?

However, if God "never knew" us then that eliminates the possibility of eternal life even though we profess to know God and work for Him:

Matthew 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.[/QUOTE]

 

[Laura798]

Yes.

Agreed.



Another thing to consider regarding this point, is that Revelation 19:20 states:


Berean Literal Bible
And the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet, the one having done the signs before him, by which he deceived those having received the mark of the beast and those worshiping its image. The two were cast living into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.

King James Bible
And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

So....even though it is a VISION John sees which is clearly representative of other things, you believe some things are figurative and other things are literal? Or you are guessing which is which? And so even when the angel explains what some of the things are like the SECOND DEATH--you don't believe him? Is that what you're saying?

Just to be clear you do know what the definition of death is right? The state of being no longer alive : the state of being dead
the passing or destruction of something

Revelations 20:14
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

Revelation 21:8
But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Revelation 2:11
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.’

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

 

[Laura798]

To preface all of this, please first answer this: Are the first death and the second death
-different in nature
or
-same in nature?


How do you know that it is a symbol?
Eternal life is in the Bible is not defined as "remaining conscious" or "awake" or "able to move" etc.

““This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.” (John 17:3)​

Knowing God forever is eternal life, not merely being awake or conscious.

How does he know it's a symbol? Because the angel says so four times! See post #533 with bible verses

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

@Laura798 's Post #533,

you said, "the state of being dead"



Consider 1 Timothy 5:6 -


Berean Literal Bible
But she living in self-indulgence is dead [G2348] while living.

King James Bible
But she that liveth in pleasure is dead [G2348] while she liveth.

New King James Version
But she who lives in pleasure is dead [G2348] while she lives.

NASB 1995
But she who gives herself to wanton pleasure is dead [G2348] even while she lives.



G2348 - https://biblehub.com/greek/2348.htm

 

[Laura798]

How does he know it's a symbol? Because the angel says so four times! See post #533 with bible verses

To preface all of this, please first answer this: Are the first death and the second death
-different in nature
or
-same in nature?


How do you know that it is a symbol?
Eternal life is in the Bible is not defined as "remaining conscious" or "awake" or "able to move" etc.

““This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.” (John 17:3)​

Knowing God forever is eternal life, not merely being awake or conscious.

Diakonos,

You asked "To preface all of this, please first answer this: Are the first death and the second death-different in nature or-same in nature?"

The first death is man's natural death--then ALL are resurrected and the unbelievers are destroyed. The only difference is one is a natural death and the second Christ destroys them.

 

[Laura798]

@Laura798 's Post #533,

you said, "the state of being dead"



Consider 1 Timothy 5:6 -


Berean Literal Bible
But she living in self-indulgence is dead [G2348] while living.

King James Bible
But she that liveth in pleasure is dead [G2348] while she liveth.

New King James Version
But she who lives in pleasure is dead [G2348] while she lives.

NASB 1995
But she who gives herself to wanton pleasure is dead [G2348] even while she lives.



G2348 - https://biblehub.com/greek/2348.htm

That is clearly not the same thing--again CONTEXT, CONTEXT, CONTEXT. That obviously is not speaking of literal death--it is the sentence of death that is imposed because of sin--the same sentence of death that was given to Adam and Eve. "In the day you eat of it you shall surely die." Death is the penalty for sin and THAT is what these verses are referring to. You don't have to be Sherlock Holmes to figure that out.

 

[Magenta]

I was Church of God out of Seireville Tn for 20 yrs full member and your info is incorrect. They believe in an eternal conscious torment for devil,his angels and those who reject God til time is no more......

Interesting! Because people often say such things as, there is no time in eternality

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

@Laura798 's Post #537, where you say,

"--then ALL are resurrected and the unbelievers are destroyed."


What I see is that verses such as Luke 17:27,29 (using the word "destroyed [G622]") are speaking of persons still existing on the earth (in their natural lives) when this will occur... which in context is referring to the time surrounding Christ's Second Coming to the earth (like in Rev19... or in the first of two "punish" words of Isa24:21-22[23] which correlates with that point in time), rather than the later "GWTj" setting.

-- https://biblehub.com/interlinear/luke/17-27.htm

-- https://biblehub.com/interlinear/luke/17-29.htm



[this is that matter of "chronology" again...]

 

[Laura798]

@Laura798 's Post #537, where you say,

"--then ALL are resurrected and the unbelievers are destroyed."


What I see is that verses such as Luke 17:27,29 (using the word "destroyed [G622]") are speaking of persons still existing on the earth (in their natural lives) when this will occur... which in context is referring to the time surrounding Christ's Second Coming to the earth (like in Rev19... or in the first of two "punish" words of Isa24:21-22[23]), rather than the later "GWTj" setting.

-- https://biblehub.com/interlinear/luke/17-27.htm

-- https://biblehub.com/interlinear/luke/17-29.htm



[this is that matter of "chronology" again...]

DW,

Again I emphasize CONTEXT--those in the flood and those in Sodom and G --were JUDGED by God and DESTROYED--they DID NOT die natural deaths. The verses go on to say "in like manner"... The ultimate end for the wicked is DESTRUCTION. These verses are referencing he JUDGMENT at the end of the age.

See verses below:

26 “Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man. 27 People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.

28 “It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. 29 But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.

30 “It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed. "--Matthew 17:26-30