WE are judged by what we do vs. we are saved by faith alone.
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james made it clear that if we claim to have faith, yet do not show the world everyone who,has true faith will show, our faith is dead, and he asked the question, can that type of faith save you.
the answer is no, because it is a lifeless useless faith than in effect is non existent.
james was telling people who were hearers not doers to examine themselves. To see if their faith is real. NT for us to determin if they are saved or not
james made it clear that if we claim to have faith, yet do not show the world everyone who,has true faith will show, our faith is dead, and he asked the question, can that type of faith save you.
the answer is no, because it is a lifeless useless faith than in effect is non existent.
james was telling people who were hearers not doers to examine themselves. To see if their faith is real. NT for us to determin if they are saved or not
SophieT said:
so then you are counting on obedience to justify yourself. obedience to the works you believe are outlined for a Christian
can't see it I guess. (shrugs)
just a little heads up on how sin works. ANY sin makes you unrighteous unless forgiven by our faith in Christ's death in our place
ANY sin. ALL sin, except for blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, is forgiveable
We don't have a revolving door on our salvation
To clarify on a believer's forgiveness for sin, we don't ask. And the Bible doesn't say that we do. Rather, we confess that sin. 1 John 1:9.
When a believer confesses sin, they are forgiven and cleansed and brought back into fellowship. v.1-7
so then you are counting on obedience to justify yourself. obedience to the works you believe are outlined for a Christian
can't see it I guess. (shrugs)
just a little heads up on how sin works. ANY sin makes you unrighteous unless forgiven by our faith in Christ's death in our place
ANY sin. ALL sin, except for blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, is forgiveable
We don't have a revolving door on our salvation
To clarify on a believer's forgiveness for sin, we don't ask. And the Bible doesn't say that we do. Rather, we confess that sin. 1 John 1:9.
When a believer confesses sin, they are forgiven and cleansed and brought back into fellowship. v.1-7
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There seems to be a lot of misconception about what James meant in ch 2. In v.14, he wasn't referring to saving faith. But he was warning believers how to be rescused/delivered/saved (all mean the same thing by 'sozo') from being charged with hypocrisy.
The next 2 verses (v.15,16) gives a clear example of a hypocrite. All talk, no action. And 1 John 3:18 makes the same point: Dear children, let us not love with words or speech but with actions and in truth.
Then, in v.18 James makes a summary statement about what he meant.
But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds.
Translations that include quote marks (Greeks didn't), have the endquote mark as above. However, the quote marks should be around both sentences, otherwise it doesn't make sense. So this "someone" is actually saying this:
"You have faith; I have deeds. (you) Show me your faith without deeds, and I (the someone) will show you my faith BY by deeds."
Now it makes sense. The only way for others to see our faith is by what we do. This chapter is not teaching deeds must be present in order to be saved.
2:24 says we are not saved by faith alone. What is misconstrued is the kind of justification that James was meaning.
So James and Paul weren't in disagreement at all. Paul was talking about justification in God's eyes, while James was talking about justification in the eyes of other people.
And there are a number of verses that refer to the perspective of both God and others.
Justification in James is in the eyes of others.
There are a number of verses that supports the idea that James was concerned about how believers live their lives before others.
Rom 12:17 - Never pay back evil for evil to anyone. Respect what is right in the sight of all men.
This verse specifically notes the perspective of others.
Rom 14:18 - For he who in this way serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men.
This verse directly notes how our lifestyle is acceptable/approved by God and by men.
2 Cor 5:12 - We are not again commending ourselves to you but are giving you an occasion to be proud of us, so that you will have an answer for those who take pride in appearance and not in heart.
Man cannot see the heart; only God can, which is where our faith is. So, by living our our faith, we have an answer for those who take pride in appearance.
2 Cor 8:21 - for we have regard for what is honorable, not only in the sight of the Lord, but also in the sight of men.
This could not be more clear: in the sight of the Lord (for justification) and in the sight of men (for their approval or justification).
Col 4:5 - Be wise in the way you act toward outsiders; make the most of every opportunity.
1 Tim 3:7 - And he must have a good reputation with those outside the church, so that he will not fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
Clearly speaking of having a good testimony before others (outside the church-unbelievers), which avoids the charge of hypocrisy.
1 Thess 4:12 - so that you will behave properly toward outsiders and not be in any need.
Ditto
1 Pet 2:12 - Keep your behavior excellent among the Gentiles, so that in the thing in which they slander you as evildoers, they may because of your good deeds, as they observe them, glorify God in the day of visitation.
Clearly Peter is emphasizing that believers who live out their faith, not being hypocrites, will have a positive effect upon unbelievers.
1 Jn 3:18 - Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth.
This is directly linked to James 2:15,16; the example of the believer who told people "be warmed and filled" but didn't do anything to meet their needs. He was a blatant hypocrite. iow, he "loved only with word or tongue", but definitely not "in deed and truth".
The next 2 verses (v.15,16) gives a clear example of a hypocrite. All talk, no action. And 1 John 3:18 makes the same point: Dear children, let us not love with words or speech but with actions and in truth.
Then, in v.18 James makes a summary statement about what he meant.
But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds.
Translations that include quote marks (Greeks didn't), have the endquote mark as above. However, the quote marks should be around both sentences, otherwise it doesn't make sense. So this "someone" is actually saying this:
"You have faith; I have deeds. (you) Show me your faith without deeds, and I (the someone) will show you my faith BY by deeds."
Now it makes sense. The only way for others to see our faith is by what we do. This chapter is not teaching deeds must be present in order to be saved.
2:24 says we are not saved by faith alone. What is misconstrued is the kind of justification that James was meaning.
So James and Paul weren't in disagreement at all. Paul was talking about justification in God's eyes, while James was talking about justification in the eyes of other people.
And there are a number of verses that refer to the perspective of both God and others.
Justification in James is in the eyes of others.
There are a number of verses that supports the idea that James was concerned about how believers live their lives before others.
Rom 12:17 - Never pay back evil for evil to anyone. Respect what is right in the sight of all men.
This verse specifically notes the perspective of others.
Rom 14:18 - For he who in this way serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men.
This verse directly notes how our lifestyle is acceptable/approved by God and by men.
2 Cor 5:12 - We are not again commending ourselves to you but are giving you an occasion to be proud of us, so that you will have an answer for those who take pride in appearance and not in heart.
Man cannot see the heart; only God can, which is where our faith is. So, by living our our faith, we have an answer for those who take pride in appearance.
2 Cor 8:21 - for we have regard for what is honorable, not only in the sight of the Lord, but also in the sight of men.
This could not be more clear: in the sight of the Lord (for justification) and in the sight of men (for their approval or justification).
Col 4:5 - Be wise in the way you act toward outsiders; make the most of every opportunity.
1 Tim 3:7 - And he must have a good reputation with those outside the church, so that he will not fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
Clearly speaking of having a good testimony before others (outside the church-unbelievers), which avoids the charge of hypocrisy.
1 Thess 4:12 - so that you will behave properly toward outsiders and not be in any need.
Ditto
1 Pet 2:12 - Keep your behavior excellent among the Gentiles, so that in the thing in which they slander you as evildoers, they may because of your good deeds, as they observe them, glorify God in the day of visitation.
Clearly Peter is emphasizing that believers who live out their faith, not being hypocrites, will have a positive effect upon unbelievers.
1 Jn 3:18 - Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth.
This is directly linked to James 2:15,16; the example of the believer who told people "be warmed and filled" but didn't do anything to meet their needs. He was a blatant hypocrite. iow, he "loved only with word or tongue", but definitely not "in deed and truth".
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So I have many verses which specifically says I am not saved by works, and I should take one verse which says the opposite, , and instead of trying to see what James really said so he does not contradict the rest, I just take it at face value making the Bible contradict itself?
my Bible is in harmony it does not contradict.
my Bible is in harmony it does not contradict.
There is no contradiction.
Concerning Ephesians 2:8-9, Verses 11-16 in this same chapter indicate he’s referring to works of the Mosaic Law. He leads off talking about circumcision, then mentions our alienation from Israel covenants, and Verse 15 is the most glaring. Jews cannot boast in front of Gentiles of having a privileged relationship with God because of the Mosaic Law and its requirement of circumcision (see Rom. 2: 6–11, 17–21, 25–29, 3: 21–22, 27–30).
Concerning Ephesians 2:8-9, Verses 11-16 in this same chapter indicate he’s referring to works of the Mosaic Law. He leads off talking about circumcision, then mentions our alienation from Israel covenants, and Verse 15 is the most glaring. Jews cannot boast in front of Gentiles of having a privileged relationship with God because of the Mosaic Law and its requirement of circumcision (see Rom. 2: 6–11, 17–21, 25–29, 3: 21–22, 27–30).
I just wanted to make one additional comment. I don’t believe we can earn our salvation, that’s a free gift of God. But we can freely choose to lose our salvation by falling into sin. Good works are nothing more than us being obedient to what Jesus asked of us. Obedience is part of our “Faith” too.
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It's quite simple really. People get confused over Luther's doctrine of "by faith alone." Certainly, Luther himself believed in following, in a sense, the 10 Commandments.
But even Luther had a hard time understanding James' treatment of justification by deeds, which is equally biblical. So what James was saying is that we must do a work, and that work is based on belief in Jesus' name.
What that means is that what we do must come through the Spirit of Christ, after we have received his grace and mercy. Then what we do, we do through the virtue of Christ himself. We are, in reality, working in partnership with Christ, our will and his virtue. We choose to live by his virtue, or by his Spirit.
When we accept Christ, we are accepting his basis of salvation, which is leaving aside our own independent ways for a life of dependence upon him. It isn't that we lose ouf freedom--we just lose being independent of him. We live by his Spirit, and sometimes have to obey something precise. But in all things we live by his Spirit.
So we are justified by our deeds in the sense that our works justify our faith. They prove that we really truly do have faith. If we don't do the works of Christ, our faith is false. We're not truly saved.
But even Luther had a hard time understanding James' treatment of justification by deeds, which is equally biblical. So what James was saying is that we must do a work, and that work is based on belief in Jesus' name.
What that means is that what we do must come through the Spirit of Christ, after we have received his grace and mercy. Then what we do, we do through the virtue of Christ himself. We are, in reality, working in partnership with Christ, our will and his virtue. We choose to live by his virtue, or by his Spirit.
When we accept Christ, we are accepting his basis of salvation, which is leaving aside our own independent ways for a life of dependence upon him. It isn't that we lose ouf freedom--we just lose being independent of him. We live by his Spirit, and sometimes have to obey something precise. But in all things we live by his Spirit.
So we are justified by our deeds in the sense that our works justify our faith. They prove that we really truly do have faith. If we don't do the works of Christ, our faith is false. We're not truly saved.
We are saved by faith, and not by works when we first confess Christ, for that is all we can do for we have not received the Spirit yet.
But after we receive the Spirit then we have to have works to have faith to stay saved.
Many are called but few are chosen.
And some have a form of godliness but deny the power thereof, ever learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
And if a person thinks they stand take heed lest you fall for that is when they get relaxed and might not measure up.
And if they do not continue in the goodness of God they shall be cut off.
And awake to righteousness and sin not, but some do not have the knowledge of God.
And the Lord knows them that are His having this seal that everyone that says the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
Which a Spirit led life can abstain from sin for a Spirit led life will not fulfill the desires of the flesh for they have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts, and show the ways of the Spirit and not the flesh.
So there is no excuse.
Which means once saved always saved is not true unless a person does what is right.
Jesus said seek God and His righteousness, and if a person does not do righteousness then they are not of God, and awake to righteousness and sin not, so righteousness is an action on the part of the person, which they also try to make it imputed to them without being righteous themselves with action like they try to make faith without action.
It could be they want to live in sin and then say they are still saved which it appeals to people that want to keep sinning and believe they are still saved which the Bible says they have a form of godliness but deny the power thereof which because of their sinning they love to enjoy they deny the Spirit leading them.
Paul said that out of faith, hope, and charity, love in action, works, that charity is the greatest.
Charity is greater than faith and it can only be valid is if it is done in works, and faith works by love.
That is why James said if they do not have charity, works, when he points out helping the poor and needy, then their faith is dead which means no faith.
Which a person is saved by works and not faith alone because love is greater than faith.
And Paul says the same thing as James that he could have all faith so that he could remove mountains, but if he did not have charity, works, then he is nothing.
And Paul said if anybody preaches God blesses with money and material things to withdraw yourselves from them for the love of money is the root of all evil because it neglects the poor and needy which is not charity, works of love, which some having coveted have erred from the faith same as James saying their faith is dead.
John said if they do not have charity then the love of God does not dwell in them.
Paul and James says the same thing that their faith is void if they do not have charity.
We are saved by faith, and not by works, when we confess Christ.
And then when we receive the Spirit we have to have charity, works, or our faith is dead.
For a person is justified by works, and not faith alone when they receive the Spirit.
But after we receive the Spirit then we have to have works to have faith to stay saved.
Many are called but few are chosen.
And some have a form of godliness but deny the power thereof, ever learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
And if a person thinks they stand take heed lest you fall for that is when they get relaxed and might not measure up.
And if they do not continue in the goodness of God they shall be cut off.
And awake to righteousness and sin not, but some do not have the knowledge of God.
And the Lord knows them that are His having this seal that everyone that says the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
Which a Spirit led life can abstain from sin for a Spirit led life will not fulfill the desires of the flesh for they have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts, and show the ways of the Spirit and not the flesh.
So there is no excuse.
Which means once saved always saved is not true unless a person does what is right.
Jesus said seek God and His righteousness, and if a person does not do righteousness then they are not of God, and awake to righteousness and sin not, so righteousness is an action on the part of the person, which they also try to make it imputed to them without being righteous themselves with action like they try to make faith without action.
It could be they want to live in sin and then say they are still saved which it appeals to people that want to keep sinning and believe they are still saved which the Bible says they have a form of godliness but deny the power thereof which because of their sinning they love to enjoy they deny the Spirit leading them.
Paul said that out of faith, hope, and charity, love in action, works, that charity is the greatest.
Charity is greater than faith and it can only be valid is if it is done in works, and faith works by love.
That is why James said if they do not have charity, works, when he points out helping the poor and needy, then their faith is dead which means no faith.
Which a person is saved by works and not faith alone because love is greater than faith.
And Paul says the same thing as James that he could have all faith so that he could remove mountains, but if he did not have charity, works, then he is nothing.
And Paul said if anybody preaches God blesses with money and material things to withdraw yourselves from them for the love of money is the root of all evil because it neglects the poor and needy which is not charity, works of love, which some having coveted have erred from the faith same as James saying their faith is dead.
John said if they do not have charity then the love of God does not dwell in them.
Paul and James says the same thing that their faith is void if they do not have charity.
We are saved by faith, and not by works, when we confess Christ.
And then when we receive the Spirit we have to have charity, works, or our faith is dead.
For a person is justified by works, and not faith alone when they receive the Spirit.
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Faith will produce good work
I think we save by faith not by work,
Faith or believe to the point invite Jesus in to our heart, than when Jesus indweel in us, it change our heart and bear the fruit, the fruit of Holy Spirit is love.
That is why in Matt 25 Jesus judge people save or not base on loving work
Matt 25
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
Verse 41 tell this is not judgement for reward, this judgement is save or hell
Depart from me .........go to eternal fire or hell.
Is that Judgement base on work or faith?
It is faith, good work that is the manifestation of faith.
Faith is not only believe Jesus is god, more than that, faith is obey to the one we have faith on
I think we save by faith not by work,
Faith or believe to the point invite Jesus in to our heart, than when Jesus indweel in us, it change our heart and bear the fruit, the fruit of Holy Spirit is love.
That is why in Matt 25 Jesus judge people save or not base on loving work
Matt 25
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
Verse 41 tell this is not judgement for reward, this judgement is save or hell
Depart from me .........go to eternal fire or hell.
Is that Judgement base on work or faith?
It is faith, good work that is the manifestation of faith.
Faith is not only believe Jesus is god, more than that, faith is obey to the one we have faith on
Let talk about the correlation between faith and work.
God spoke to Noah, I will flood the earth, so make an arch
Noah believe/have faith, than He obey God build an giant arch, than he save
What happen if Noah say he believe in God but not build an arch?
Is that real faith
Seem his work to build an arch is the manifestation of his faith.
If one accept the Lord and die in the next second, he is save, because salvation by faith
But if he live for the next 10 years, his faith will translate into loving work, because Jesus that dwell in him will bear the fruit of love.
God spoke to Noah, I will flood the earth, so make an arch
Noah believe/have faith, than He obey God build an giant arch, than he save
What happen if Noah say he believe in God but not build an arch?
Is that real faith
Seem his work to build an arch is the manifestation of his faith.
If one accept the Lord and die in the next second, he is save, because salvation by faith
But if he live for the next 10 years, his faith will translate into loving work, because Jesus that dwell in him will bear the fruit of love.
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Um no, he is not talking about works of the mosaic law. I am not sure who taught you that but they myself you, he was talking to gentile believers in a gentile city the works of law were no where in his thinking, vs 11-16 prove he spoke to Gentiles, and he said they were brought to Christ by his blood. Not by any work period, it’s all about the blood, he never stated work of the law. So yes. james would be contradicting paul
you need to remember, paul said we are saved by faith, James accused them of CLAIMIING to have faith. Two totally different things,
you need to remember, paul said we are saved by faith, James accused them of CLAIMIING to have faith. Two totally different things,
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1 John 3: 4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
John said a child of god can not live in sin, if this is tho Ugh how can they sin themselves out of salvation?
James 2: 10 For whoever shall keep the wholelaw, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all
here James said we can be perfect our whole life, and stumble in just one small sin and we are guilty, who can meet this standard?
Paul in Gal 3 called th galations fools because they believed they came to God in faith (the spirit) but must perfect it in the flesh by how righteous they were, he reminded them that according to Gd, perfection is required (cursed is the one who does not confirm and obey every word to do them.)
so if perfection is the standard, and as paul said, all have sinned and fall short of that standard. He could we possible fall into sin and lose the right to be called children of God? Especially again where John said God gave us the riht or power to be children by faith. Again, no mention of works. The only thing John said is we recieve him. To us he gave the right to be sons of God
i am sorry my friend, every morning when you wake up and you not in hell, praise God, because that’s where you deserve to be, you have not arrived your not GOOD enough to be a child of God, you can not be good enough to be gods child. We will not reach that state until we are in heaven where there is no more sin,
one sin makes you guilty, the penalty is death,
do you think it matters if you commited only 5 sins and have 5 death penalty cases against you or 1000 death penalties for 1000 sins..
on judgment day, both will be required to pay for those sins and both will end up in hell apart from the blood of Christ
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
John said a child of god can not live in sin, if this is tho Ugh how can they sin themselves out of salvation?
James 2: 10 For whoever shall keep the wholelaw, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all
here James said we can be perfect our whole life, and stumble in just one small sin and we are guilty, who can meet this standard?
Paul in Gal 3 called th galations fools because they believed they came to God in faith (the spirit) but must perfect it in the flesh by how righteous they were, he reminded them that according to Gd, perfection is required (cursed is the one who does not confirm and obey every word to do them.)
so if perfection is the standard, and as paul said, all have sinned and fall short of that standard. He could we possible fall into sin and lose the right to be called children of God? Especially again where John said God gave us the riht or power to be children by faith. Again, no mention of works. The only thing John said is we recieve him. To us he gave the right to be sons of God
i am sorry my friend, every morning when you wake up and you not in hell, praise God, because that’s where you deserve to be, you have not arrived your not GOOD enough to be a child of God, you can not be good enough to be gods child. We will not reach that state until we are in heaven where there is no more sin,
one sin makes you guilty, the penalty is death,
do you think it matters if you commited only 5 sins and have 5 death penalty cases against you or 1000 death penalties for 1000 sins..
on judgment day, both will be required to pay for those sins and both will end up in hell apart from the blood of Christ