Was the Garden of Eden, literally Heaven on Earth? Was the Earth already fallen except for the Garden?

[pittsburghjoe]

• Romans 8:16
• The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
• 
  
• And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
• 
  
• For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
• 
  
• For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
• 
  
• Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Is this saying The Spirit is aware of everyone, but only those that suffer with Him can be saved? Did Christ suffer the sins of those that eventually turn to God? Does that mean He suffered for all sins of those that can be saved? Would there be a point to Him suffering for hitler's sin?

 

[CS1]

Were we in God's Love/Imagination when in the Garden? And then we separated from Him and became fallen with the rest of the Earth?

Do you have a better term to describe what we were before the fall?

Did satan cause the Earth to be fallen when he was cast out of Heaven? Did God create a safe-zone bubble of a Garden?

Did Original Sin add physical history of Man to the fallen Earth (evolution of homo sapiens)?

nothing was made by God fallen, it was made good.

 

[pittsburghjoe]

nothing was made by God fallen, it was made good.

I didn't say it wasn't. But do you agree some things could have changed when Satan was cast out? That would have been after Creation and being called good.

 

[CS1]

I didn't say it wasn't. But do you agree some things could have changed when Satan was cast out? That would have been after Creation and being called good.

actually, that is part of what is known as the "Gap theory".
Meaning there was a time when God cast the devil to the earth before man was created. WE see the serpent in the Garden but we do not know when he got there.

But the problem is Moses did not provide every single detail pertaining to the creation. Genesis account paramount message is God Made it.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

WE see the serpent in the Garden but we do not know when he got there.

For what it's worth, the Book of Jubilees says that Adam and Eve lived in the Garden for exactly seven years to the day. Satan seems to have left them alone if he was present.

 

[CS1]

For what it's worth, the Book of Jubilees says that Adam and Eve lived in the Garden for exactly seven years to the day. Satan seems to have left them alone if he was present.

Thank you but I do not hold the book of "jubilees" it is known as a "pseudepigraphical work ".

 

[pittsburghjoe]

For what it's worth, the Book of Jubilees says that Adam and Eve lived in the Garden for exactly seven years to the day. Satan seems to have left them alone if he was present.

Satan can hop around to anything fallen ..only the tree was fallen. Maybe they never went close to it.

Also, please read my question at the top of this page.

 

[pittsburghjoe]

Matthew 7:21-23

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

He never knew them ..He would have never have died for their specific sins?

 

[pittsburghjoe]

Is this the key to why we have to believe to be saved? Does this answer why Jesus dying for our sins wasn't enough for unbelievers to get a free ride?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

• Romans 8:16
• The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
• 
  
• And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
• 
  
• For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
• 
  
• For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
• 
  
• Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Is this saying The Spirit is aware of everyone, but only those that suffer with Him can be saved? Did Christ suffer the sins of those that eventually turn to God? Does that mean He suffered for all sins of those that can be saved? Would there be a point to Him suffering for hitler's sin?

“And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭2:2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Jesus is the sacrifice for all of sin for all of time from the beginning to the end.

The point is that he is the savior of the world , so salvation comes down to Jesus and the gospel it is eternal
Life or damnation. There’s no in between category .

hitler has to answer to Jesus precisely because Jesus does for all of his sins . Now hitlers works face Jesus eternal
Judgement . Disbelief in Jesus leaves us in sin and sin is enjoined to death

“And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him. They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:23-24, 26-27‬ ‭


To die in our sins means we refused to believe the gospel and then would have refused to be baptized in his name for the remission of our sins. This leaves the non believer to face this judgement after they wait in the grave and that realm of death

“And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened:

and another book was opened, which is the book of life:

and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭20:12‬ ‭


They have not received remission of thier sins because they refused Christ and died in thier sins.

Where as a believer has already died in Christ through Baptism into death for sins , when hey die they aren’t in thier sins anymore like non believers they don’t have to face the judgement of the dead because they were made alive through faith nite the difference in believers and the dead

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation;

but is passed from death unto life.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming,

and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24-25, 28-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

we can be saved if we believe Gods judgement now and receive remission of sins through repentance and baptism into christs death for sin so now we have true grace

“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death:

that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin,

but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin:

but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:3-4, 6-7, 11-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

so
Many believe grave excuses sin but grave actually frees us from serving sin unto death by the death and resurrection of Christ and its application to our new lives in him , by acceptance and belief

if we die in our sins we are going to be doomed , if we have our sins remitted because we believe the gospel we are going to be glorified and redeemed to eternal Life we don’t die in our sins if they are remitted

jesus blood remits sin all together for all creation

“For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭26:28‬ ‭KJV‬‬

but his resurrection assures that we will be judged according to his word

“And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭17:30-31‬ ‭

see how Jesus is the judge of the whole world ? It’s because he shed his blood for the world










mortality is made of suffering brother mortality is our curse not our purpose.

 

[pittsburghjoe]

“And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭2:2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Jesus is the sacrifice for all of sin for all of time from the beginning to the end.

The point is that he is the savior of the world , so salvation comes down to Jesus and the gospel it is eternal
Life or damnation. There’s no in between category .

hitler has to answer to Jesus precisely because Jesus does for all of his sins . Now hitlers works face Jesus eternal
Judgement . Disbelief in Jesus leaves us in sin and sin is enjoined to death

“And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him. They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:23-24, 26-27‬ ‭


To die in our sins means we refused to believe the gospel and then would have refused to be baptized in his name for the remission of our sins. This leaves the non believer to face this judgement after they wait in the grave and that realm of death

“And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened:

and another book was opened, which is the book of life:

and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭20:12‬ ‭


They have not received remission of thier sins because they refused Christ and died in thier sins.

Where as a believer has already died in Christ through Baptism into death for sins , when hey die they aren’t in thier sins anymore like non believers they don’t have to face the judgement of the dead because they were made alive through faith nite the difference in believers and the dead

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation;

but is passed from death unto life.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming,

and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24-25, 28-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

we can be saved if we believe Gods judgement now and receive remission of sins through repentance and baptism into christs death for sin so now we have true grace

“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death:

that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin,

but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin:

but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:3-4, 6-7, 11-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

so
Many believe grave excuses sin but grave actually frees us from serving sin unto death by the death and resurrection of Christ and its application to our new lives in him , by acceptance and belief

if we die in our sins we are going to be doomed , if we have our sins remitted because we believe the gospel we are going to be glorified and redeemed to eternal Life we don’t die in our sins if they are remitted

jesus blood remits sin all together for all creation

“For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭26:28‬ ‭KJV‬‬

but his resurrection assures that we will be judged according to his word

“And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭17:30-31‬ ‭

see how Jesus is the judge of the whole world ? It’s because he shed his blood for the world










mortality is made of suffering brother mortality is our curse not our purpose.

You are saying the sins can exist twice? One in Jesus and one at the death of an unbeliever? I guess this makes sense if Jesus is the Top Spirit with access to all souls.

Mortality is Original Sin. I'm talking about specific sins of someone.

 

[pittsburghjoe]

“And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭2:2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Jesus is the sacrifice for all of sin for all of time from the beginning to the end.

The point is that he is the savior of the world , so salvation comes down to Jesus and the gospel it is eternal
Life or damnation. There’s no in between category .

hitler has to answer to Jesus precisely because Jesus does for all of his sins . Now hitlers works face Jesus eternal
Judgement . Disbelief in Jesus leaves us in sin and sin is enjoined to death

“And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him. They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:23-24, 26-27‬ ‭


To die in our sins means we refused to believe the gospel and then would have refused to be baptized in his name for the remission of our sins. This leaves the non believer to face this judgement after they wait in the grave and that realm of death

“And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened:

and another book was opened, which is the book of life:

and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭20:12‬ ‭


They have not received remission of thier sins because they refused Christ and died in thier sins.

Where as a believer has already died in Christ through Baptism into death for sins , when hey die they aren’t in thier sins anymore like non believers they don’t have to face the judgement of the dead because they were made alive through faith nite the difference in believers and the dead

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation;

but is passed from death unto life.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming,

and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24-25, 28-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

we can be saved if we believe Gods judgement now and receive remission of sins through repentance and baptism into christs death for sin so now we have true grace

“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death:

that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin,

but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin:

but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:3-4, 6-7, 11-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

so
Many believe grave excuses sin but grave actually frees us from serving sin unto death by the death and resurrection of Christ and its application to our new lives in him , by acceptance and belief

if we die in our sins we are going to be doomed , if we have our sins remitted because we believe the gospel we are going to be glorified and redeemed to eternal Life we don’t die in our sins if they are remitted

jesus blood remits sin all together for all creation

“For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭26:28‬ ‭KJV‬‬

but his resurrection assures that we will be judged according to his word

“And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭17:30-31‬ ‭

see how Jesus is the judge of the whole world ? It’s because he shed his blood for the world










mortality is made of suffering brother mortality is our curse not our purpose.

Jesus died for every sin ever, but it only matters to an unbeliever if they acknowledge what Jesus did for them. The Ten Commandments would automatically present itself to someone that knows Jesus is real.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Thank you but I do not hold the book of "jubilees" it is known as a "pseudepigraphical work ".

That's cool. I believe it, though, as it falls perfectly in-line with the Mysterious Plan of God, the Doctrine of Spiritual Circumcision, and in my reading of it, I didn't find one element of it that was in opposition to our Holy Bible. You might want to read it before you judge it.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Did Christ suffer the sins of those that eventually turn to God? Does that mean He suffered for all sins of those that can be saved? Would there be a point to Him suffering for hitler's sin?

In my studies of our Bible, I believe that it says that Jesus died only for those whom the Father would give to Jesus, and that Christ shall not lose one of them. I fully believe that first statement, however, the Bible makes so pretty solid cases for Jesus dying for the WHOLE world. Many times we read that all of Israel will be saved, and more, we find passages that indicate that the entire world will be saved.

As for Hitler, Exodus 33:19 tells us that God grants His Grace, Mercy, and Compassion upon anyone he so chooses, so as to show His Power and Glory. This means that we are not to question who he shall save and who he shall not save. Was not Saul saved? And was he not a Christian killer? And . . . Paul later turned into the most prolific Apostle ever. Do not be surprised if Adolf Hitler is in Heaven, for when the Lord shows His Power and Might, it is difficult for the Human Heart to contend with God and reject Him. This may have happened in the final moments of Hitler's life . . . we just don't know. For sure, it seems like Hitler's being invited into Heaven is a long shot . . . but hey . . . who are we to say?

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Satan can hop around to anything fallen ..only the tree was fallen. Maybe they never went close to it.

I like this statement about Satan influencing things fallen. Very cool. And as for not eating from the Tree, it really does make you wonder why they didn't have more knowledge and awareness regarding the True depth of them. Amazing.

 

[pittsburghjoe]

In my studies of our Bible, I believe that it says that Jesus died only for those whom the Father would give to Jesus, and that Christ shall not lose one of them.

Are you saying the Father didn't hand everyone over to Christ?

I'm thinking, without repenting, an unbeliever holds onto their fallen state, original sin, and their own sins. But as I said, I think a copy of it was payed for.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Are you saying the Father didn't hand everyone over to Christ?

That doesn't sound like a Biblical concept. However, God is in control of all people . . . and the Plan is that all would be ultimately judged by Christ (as I understand). All people are given the chance to believe in Christ . . . but handed over? If Sinners were handed to Christ, then He would hand them over to Satan.

 

[pittsburghjoe]

Is there a difference between "give" and "hand over"?

Opening the door to Jesus allows Him to delete your local copy of sins.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

You are saying the sins can exist twice? One in Jesus and one at the death of an unbeliever? I guess this makes sense if Jesus is the Top Spirit with access to all souls.

Mortality is Original Sin. I'm talking about specific sins of someone.

No I don’t think I’m saying sins exist twice at all . I’m saying Jesus is the one who determines who is forgiven and who is not forgiven and he will do it according to what he has said in the gospel and sent forth into the world and said “ believe and be saved “

consider this parable brother concerning the forgiveness and mercy we receive from God this is Jesus teaching about the manner of forgiveness he has offered us

“Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents. But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made. The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭18:23-27‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the lord has forgiven us but we don’t stop in the middle of the parable

“But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest. And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.

So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done. Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?

And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭18:28-35‬ ‭

many don’t like to hear the truth but Jesus was teaching it all all
Of the truth of Gods kingdom in parables and teachings like this

our forgiveness the means is Jesus blood , but his words fully apply to that also a covenant is the word of God and then the blood of remission according to the prior debt. Or “the purchasing of the people by the lifeblood of a covenant.”


He taught us that because he has been merciful to us and forgiven our sins , we must now be merciful to others and forgive those who sin against us .

we surely are forgiven all
Our sins in Christ but we also like the man in the parable have an accounting to give to the lord

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

what Jesus has taught us is among many things this staple of mercy and forgiveness not only what he’s given to us , but what we now owe to others in his name

“Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.

Judge not, and ye shall not be judged:

condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned:

forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall be given into your bosom.

For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭6:36-38‬ ‭

we have to stand before his throne and give an account . We know the source of forgiveness was his blood , but that word is our salvation

“Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5:7‬ ‭KJV‬‬


It’s not so much sin we need to worry about now , we simply already know we have to repent of sin . It’s more about learning what we are supposed to do and how we are supposed to treat others .

sin and guilt and death is what the ot law is about

“Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:19-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The gospel is about righteousness and life rather than sin and death

there is life in learning to forgive others there is always an instruction and promise in the word both are sure

“For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭6:14-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the reason Jesus has the authority to teach these things is because he is the one who shed his blood for forgiveness so he gets to determine now our law

“For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free

from the law of sin and death.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:2‬ ‭


We need the what to do”s the “ do nots” never helped men be right before God. The main thing Christ taught about sin is that we are to repent and not serve sin. The glory is in the teachings about Gods kingdom

like the parable there about forgiveness . Ultimately it’s Jesus who determines salvation as much as we would like to it comes down in the end to Jesus and the believer or non believer and the day of judgement

if we repent there is mercy everyday as much as we need but if we embrace sin and try to justify it by his blood then we are doing our own selves a dis service . He forgave us and will also decide who enters the kingdom and who enters satans eternal Home

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Thank you but I do not hold the book of "jubilees" it is known as a "pseudepigraphical work ".

When you read the Book of Jubilees, what was your honest conclusion?