MahoganySnail:
The point is though , that while God can do anything and could change bread and wine into flesh and blood, I've never heard of that happening and I bet it doesn't happen in your masses.
No one ever heard of God becoming man either. But He did.
Catholics believe that when he took wine and said "this is my blood', that it really was his blood in the cup. You can't claim that Jesus meant his own literal blood , unless you also believe that when Jesus said "I am the vine" , that he meant he literally was a vine. Do catholics think Jesus was really a literal vine. He said he was so it must be true.
No, we don’t not think that he meant that he was a literal vine, because he said this
:“Yes, I am the vine; you are the branches. Those who remain in me, and I in them, will produce much fruit. For apart from me you can do nothing” (John 15:5)
But in this same Gospel, previously, he says this:
“Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat. Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.” (John 6:31-32) “I am that bread of life. Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat? Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.” (John 6:48-56)
“Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it? When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?” (John 6:60-61).
“Verily, verily, I say unto you” When Jesus says “Verily, Verily” or “Amen, Amen” or “Truly, Truly” He
means what he is saying, not as a metaphor, but at literal truth.
“
Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven” Here, he is taking an example to remind the disciples and all present, who are have eaten a miraculous supply of multiplies loaves, how God provided for them in the desert by sending down manna, an actual physical food from heaven. It was food which physically nourished the bodies of the Jews in the desert. He is saying here that the manna wasn’t the true bread from heaven, he is. Obviously, the Bible says that the Jews were given actual food from God, so Jesus is not calling God a liar but instead setting the crowd up to know that there is another kind of bread which is purer; another kind of bread from heaven that is of more value to the flesh and the soul.
“Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die” Again, he is reminding them of their ancestors who were nourished in physical need, but they died. All the bread was good for was to nourish the body, yet still they died because it was of no avail to the soul. The bread he will give will do more than the manna in the desert.
“…
the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.” Here, this bread which he is alluding to that is better than the manna given to the Jews, he explains is the flesh, his flesh, which he gives up for the life of the world. He gave up his flesh in sacrifice on the cross for the redemption of souls. This redemption therefore swings open the gates of heaven, that all men might have eternal life. Before, the Jews has no savior and were essentially barred from heaven (remember Adam and Eve’s expulsion from Eden. Paradise was cut off). When Jesus sacrifices himself on the cross, he opens heaven to all men who will believe. His flesh is given up for the life of the world: true life everlasting. The body will die, but the soul is not ****ed. This flesh he gives up is also the bread that he will give to his disciples.
“
How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” This question is asked by those present. How can he give us his flesh? It makes no sense to them. They did not question how he multiplied the loaves and fishes, but they question this. It is clear that they understand him to literally mean he will give them his actual flesh to eat. Their answer: “
Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.” Hearing their question, Jesus re-enforces what he is saying, and does so in a way which shows he does not mean what he says to be taken as a metaphor. He does not use metaphorical language: “Verily Verily” means truly, truly; amen, amen. This is no mere metaphor.
“
For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.” Again, non-metaphorical language here: Indeed is the same as truly, or verily. He says his flesh is truly meat and his blood is truly drink. He does not say “Like meat and like drink” or anything to indicate metaphor.
“
This is an hard saying; who can hear it?” Realizing that this is not metaphor and that Jesus really means to give his flesh as food and his blood as drink, people are again astounded. It is difficult to take seriously someone, whom many believe is the messiah, say “Eat my flesh and drink my blood” if they actually mean it. This is why they reply in this manner. And to answer them again, Jesus says:
“Doth this offend you?” He asks them if they are offended that he would suggest that the disciples, those who believe he is the messiah, the Son of the Father, God himself, eat his flesh and drink his blood. They ought to be offended if they are good Jews. The thought of cannibalism was as abhorrent then as it is now (he did not yet explain to them how they would eat his flesh and drink his blood as he would later show at the Last Supper). They had it clear in their mind that Jesus really meant to eat his physical flesh and drink his physical blood, which is why they were so offended, and many even left:
“From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?” (John 6:66-67). No where does he try to clarify himself to show them that he was speaking in metaphors. He meant what he said, and they knew it, and finding it a hard saying; and offensive saying, they left.
++++++++++++
(The above was from Scripture. The following is the history of how this was agreed upon by early members of the Church).
Ignatius of Antioch
"I have no taste for corruptible food nor for the pleasures of this life. I desire the bread of God, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ, who was of the seed of David; and for drink I desire his blood, which is love incorruptible" (Letter to the Romans 7:3 [A.D. 110]).
"Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. . . . They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes" (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2–7:1 [A.D. 110]).
Justin Martyr:
"We call this food Eucharist, and no one else is permitted to partake of it, except one who believes our teaching to be true and who has been washed in the washing which is for the remission of sins and for regeneration [i.e., has received baptism] and is thereby living as Christ enjoined. For not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nurtured, is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus" (First Apology 66 [A.D. 151]).
Irenaeus:
"If the Lord were from other than the Father, how could he rightly take bread, which is of the same creation as our own, and confess it to be his body and affirm that the mixture in the cup is his blood?" (Against Heresies 4:33–32 [A.D. 189]).
"He has declared the cup, a part of creation, to be his own blood, from which he causes our blood to flow; and the bread, a part of creation, he has established as his own body, from which he gives increase unto our bodies. When, therefore, the mixed cup [wine and water] and the baked bread receives the Word of God and becomes the Eucharist, the body of Christ, and from these the substance of our flesh is increased and supported, how can they say that the flesh is not capable of receiving the gift of God, which is eternal life—flesh which is nourished by the body and blood of the Lord, and is in fact a member of him?" (Against Heresies., 5:2).
Clement of Alexandria
"’Eat my flesh,’ [Jesus] says, ‘and drink my blood.’ The Lord supplies us with these intimate nutrients, he delivers over his flesh and pours out his blood, and nothing is lacking for the growth of his children" (The Instructor of Children 1:6:43:3 [A.D. 191]).
Cyprian of Carthage
"He [Paul] threatens, moreover, the stubborn and forward, and denounces them, saying, ‘Whosoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily, is guilty of the body and blood of the Lord’ [1 Cor. 11:27]. All these warnings being scorned and contemned—[lapsed Christians will often take Communion] before their sin is expiated, before confession has been made of their crime, before their conscience has been purged by sacrifice and by the hand of the priest, before the offense of an angry and threatening Lord has been appeased, [and so] violence is done to his body and blood; and they sin now against their Lord more with their hand and mouth than when they denied their Lord" (The Lapsed 15–16 [A.D. 251]).
Augustine
"Christ was carried in his own hands when, referring to his own body, he said, ‘This is my body’ [Matt. 26:26]. For he carried that body in his hands" (Explanations of the Psalms 33:1:10 [A.D. 405]).
"I promised you [new Christians], who have now been baptized, a sermon in which I would explain the sacrament of the Lord’s Table. . . . That bread which you see on the altar, having been sanctified by the word of God, is the body of Christ. That chalice, or rather, what is in that chalice, having been sanctified by the word of God, is the blood of Christ" (Sermons 227 [A.D. 411]).
"What you see is the bread and the chalice; that is what your own eyes report to you. But what your faith obliges you to accept is that the bread is the body of Christ and the chalice is the blood of Christ. This has been said very briefly, which may perhaps be sufficient for faith; yet faith does not desire instruction" (ibid., 272).
John’s Gospel shows us
what the Eucharist is. The Last Supper is where Jesus showed us
how we are to partake in the Eucharist. In Genesis 14:18, Melchizedek, the king of Salem and a priest, offered sacrifice under the form of bread and wine. Psalm 110 predicted Christ would be a priest "after the order of Melchizedek.” He offers up his own flesh as bread and his own blood as wine, and the bread and wine are his flesh and blood. And important thing to not, and this is not my original writing but that of another, is: “
The Greek word we translate as "do" is poien, which is used in the Septuagint translation of Exodus 29:38 where it is translated as "offer" (as in sacrifice). The Greek word we translate as "remembrance" is anamnesis which, along with the Hebrew word zikkaron, is more than just a "memorial", but a re-presenting.” Think of how Jews celebrate Passover. It isn’t just something they do, but it makes present the events of Passover into their current time. To “do this in memory” of Jesus as he asked, is to make it present: to make
him present. Remember also Luke 24:15-16 -“
And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them. But their eyes were holden that they should not know him.” They were walking with Jesus and did not know it was him, until…”
And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them. And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight“ (Luke 24:30-31). Only after he had broken bread did they see him. He was
made present to them in the breaking of the bread.
The Catholic understanding of the Eucharist comes from scripture, and tradition (evidenced by the above statements from those who were members of the Church in it's early stages) backs up this belief by showing that it was believed in the early stages. If you'd like to see just how seriously the Church believed in the Eucharist, I reccomend reading those parts of the
Didache (from 70 AD).
