Understanding God’s election

[Rufus]

Acts 17 says man was created to be able to seek after God but I understand your denial of Scriptural facts.

Acts 17 says no such thing! Act 17:27 does not talk of any such inherent ability in man.

Acts 17:27
27 that they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel their way toward him and find him.
ESV

"Should" does not = "would". "Hope" does not = they will seek him. And "might" does not = certainty in finding him.

Now, you didn't answer my question about the source of the Holy Spirit's revelation to the NT writers.

And if all men have this "created ability" to naturally seek after God, why would God have to draw anyone to His Son, and why would Jesus teach that NO MAN CAN come to me unless the Father gives him to me and draws him. Jesus had zero faith in fallen man's created spiritual abilities, as didn't Paul. You might wanna get on the same page as both of them some day....

 

[Rufus]

Well I must add a major ugh to this because you do know, do you not, that there are those here who insist that supernatural intervention and/or revelation is not required.

Man's "freewill" is all the "supernatural" help man ever needs.

 

[lrs68]

Read the end of Paul's greeting Rom 1:7 To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints:
Ask yourself, who did the calling - that they should be saints. (set apart).
If God does in fact call people, do they have the power to refuse?

Read 12 verses from the one you posted and not only were they able to reject God but God even gave them over to a reprobate mind.

 

[lrs68]

I have a really tough time believing you read it! If you had, you would have learned that there are three (3) verses that speak to God hardening Pharaoh's and those three precede that teach Pharaoh willingly complied with God's decree. The very first mention of Pharaoh hardening his own heart occurs in Ex 8:15, along with 8:32 and 9:34. But the first mention of God's decree in hardening the king's heart is first found in 4:21 then again in 7:3; 9:12.

But hey...enjoy your illusion.

I completely understand your intentions but the Bible is about facts not about human reasoning which is why sinners don't understand any of it.

 

[Rufus]

Read the end of Paul's greeting Rom 1:7 To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints:
Ask yourself, who did the calling - that they should be saints. (set apart).
If God does in fact call people, do they have the power to refuse?

Aw c'mon Billy Bob. Of course they have the power to refuse...just like Lazarus had the power to resist Christ's call (command) to him to come out of the tomb. God is simply a deistic-type, passive spectator when it comes to things pertaining to salvation. God leaves the results up to the FWers' other god: Randomness. Let the chips fall where they may...

 

[Cameron143]

I'm guessing you mean by estate removed from Garden but they seem to be thinking Heaven.

Neither. Due to sin, the nature of man was altered.

 

[Magenta]

Man's "freewill" is all the "supernatural" help man ever needs.

So they say, even against everything spoken against this in Scripture, including in the words of Jesus Christ himself.

 

[Magenta]

Man's "freewill" is all the "supernatural" help man ever needs.

So they say, even against everything spoken against this in Scripture, including in the words of Jesus Christ Himself.

 

[Rufus]

I completely understand your intentions but the Bible is about facts not about human reasoning which is why sinners don't understand any of it.

The passages I cited are actually appear in the chronological order of the Exodus narrative. My 12,725 had nothing to do with my "intentions" or "human reasoning:. Why can't you believe the Exodus account? Has God hardened your heart!?

And I guarantee you that if the hardening of heart order in Exodus had been in the reverse order than what it is, you'd be jumping up and down like a moonbat crazy loony. You wouldn't be able to contain yourself. But since this isn't the case, you just summarily dismiss the actual biblical evidence.

 

[lrs68]

Seeking God through Creation to become "spiritually connected" does not occur/proceed in that manner - at least
finding the true God doesn't. There are, however, many false gods and false gospels that can and are found that way. Instead, through Christ and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, one is drawn to seek, and to find, the true God.

I understand and I wasn't inferring that one could. It could lead to someone going to Church and then HEARING the Gospel preached but I was only saying it can draw someone to think about the existence of God.

 

[lrs68]

Acts 17 says no such thing! Act 17:27 does not talk of any such inherent ability in man.

Acts 17:27
27 that they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel their way toward him and find him.
ESV

"Should" does not = "would". "Hope" does not = they will seek him. And "might" does not = certainty in finding him.

Now, you didn't answer my question about the source of the Holy Spirit's revelation to the NT writers.

And if all men have this "created ability" to naturally seek after God, why would God have to draw anyone to His Son, and why would Jesus teach that NO MAN CAN come to me unless the Father gives him to me and draws him. Jesus had zero faith in fallen man's created spiritual abilities, as didn't Paul. You might wanna get on the same page as both of them some day....

Of course you purposely ignored the beginning of Paul's message that began with God did this and next verses list it all.

You are predictable.

 

[lrs68]

But no specific Verse claims God hardened Pharaoh's heart first.

 

[lrs68]

Neither. Due to sin, the nature of man was altered.

Amen!

 

[Rufus]

Of course you purposely ignored the beginning of Paul's message that began with God did this and next verses list it all.

You are predictable.

But I didn't ignore the central text to theory. And Act 17:27 does not teach anything about man's inherent abilities. You read that nonsense into the passage!

 

[lrs68]

But I didn't ignore the central text to theory. And Act 17:27 does not teach anything about man's inherent abilities. You read that nonsense into the passage!

You just ignored the beginning like I said tying the Verses together.

24 The God that made the world and all things therein, he, being Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; 25 neither is he served by men’s hands, as though he needed anything, seeing he himself giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; 26 and he made of one every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed seasons, and the bounds of their habitation; 27 that they should seek God, if haply they might feel after him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us:

 

[Kroogz]

I'm guessing you mean by estate removed from Garden but they seem to be thinking Heaven.

No idea what you mean?

 

[Kroogz]

What did God do?

You and I just talked about it.

The Holy Spirit was sent to convict /convince of us of our sin.

He did it just for you? Nope, he did it for us ALL.

 

[studier]

It's kind of amazing that we have to debate men seeking God when Paul is in an area steeping in gods and idols and men are making altars to the unknown god. These people are way more into the supernatural than most modern-day human beings. Each family had a god. This was their culture. They grew up in it in families from day one.

Paul is led to go talk to them and immediately takes them back to creation and the Creator God and spoke of future judgment. Some rejected him, some wanted to hear more, some believed.

When he's talking about men seeking God, he's simply saying God put nations into times of history and within boundaries to seek Him. Any would or should type discussion is really secondary and is not really applicable here no matter how translators are choosing to deal with it. He's also taking some shots at Greek rationalism. The language is conveying that finding God is not guaranteed but is possible which goes quite well with what Jesus and other Scriptures said about seeking God. The language presupposes ability.

 

[Cameron143]

You and I just talked about it.

The Holy Spirit was sent to convict /convince of us of our sin.

He did it just for you? Nope, he did it for us ALL.

Not everyone is convicted of sin. Trump said he hasn't sinned.

 

[studier]

IMO @lrs68 has a good point about the chronology of the hardening of Pharaoh's heart. When YHWH says He will harden Pharaoh's heart He doesn't say He will start the process, He simply says He will do it. All YHWH could well be saying is that it will be done and from there the process is up to Him as the One who makes promises and searches hearts.

Chronology and sequence are largely a western concept of thinking. It's well known in the scholarly realm that there are structures and sequencing especially in OC Hebrew that are not simple to track.