Understanding God’s election

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Rufus

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Didn't God shed blood for him when He made a covering for Adam?
God made coverings for both A&E; but where in scripture does it remotely hint that Adam embraced God's provision by faith? Also, didn't God make atonement provision in the Law of Moses for all Israel, but does that mean that all Israel was saved? Or...were only those who availed themselves of that provision by faith saved?
 

Cameron143

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God made coverings for both A&E; but where in scripture does it remotely hint that Adam embraced God's provision by faith? Also, didn't God make atonement provision in the Law of Moses for all Israel, but does that mean that all Israel was saved? Or...were only those who availed themselves of that provision by faith saved?
Revelation is progressive in the Bible, so it is impossible to say with certainty. But shedding blood and providing a covering looks alot like remission of sin and imputed righteousness to me.
 

Rufus

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Seeing that it's the father [dad] thing to teach the sons to offer sacrifice like Cain and Abel did unto God....so it's most likely Adam taught them when he himself offered sacrifices to God.

Cain and Abel didn't just wake up one day and thought I will make a sacrifice and offer it to God because as a natural born human being that is what I know I should do. < Literally impossible for a Reformed doctrine follower to ever consider as a possibility.


Since it's most logical to think Adam taught Cain and Abel to offer sacrifice to God it's very likely to think Adam repented and offered sacrifices for his sins and his labor yield.

No doubt that Adam saw sacrifice first hand when God made him clothing from the skins of animals that had to die for his own sins and to cover his nakedness.

Sometimes logic just needs to be part of the equation when the Bible isn't specific about something. Yeah, I realize that is a difficult thing for the Reformed to accept.
Actually, the bible is quite specific! Unlike scripture's positive testimony about Eve's faith, there is no such explicit testimony regarding Adam. And this fact is just the tip of the iceberg regarding all the many problems surrounding Adam. The most pernicious and persistent of these problems with Adam involves a spiritual question that does not plague Eve: Adam was the spiritual seed of whom, specifically? God did not reconcile Adam to himself when He decreed to the Serpent that he would put enmity between the Serpent and the Woman and between the Woman's seed and the Serpent's, clearly implying that God removed the enmity that Eve's sin put between her and her Creator. Adam is conspicuously absent from the redemptive promise in Gen 3:15. Plus Adam could not possibly be one of Eve's seeds since she proceeded from Adam. Therefore, since Adam cannot be included into Eve's seed, then by default Adam must be the seed of the Serpent. Whose other seed could he be???
 
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The Reformed or “Calvinists,” as they are all too frequently identified, have been viewed as pairing almost dualistically “the nothingness of man” with “the overmastering power of God,” and, accordingly, as teaching a fundamentally predestinarian or deterministic theology—whether in utter accord with Calvin's thought or in a further, negative development of it. (p. 21)
the nothingness of man”
The Reformed or “Calvinists,” as they are all too frequently identified, have been viewed as
pairing almost dualistically “the nothingness of man” with “the overmastering power of God,”
the nothingness of man”
The Reformed or “Calvinists,” as they are all too frequently identified, have been viewed as
pairing almost dualistically “the nothingness of man” with “the overmastering power of God,”
the nothingness of man” with “the overmastering power of God,”
Poor studier needs to study more, and brag less.


Daniel 4 verse 35~ All the peoples of the earth are counted as nothing, and He does as He pleases with the army of heaven and the peoples of the earth. There is no one who can restrain His hand or say to Him, ‘What have You done?’ Isaiah 14 verse 24~ The LORD of Hosts has sworn: “Surely, as I have planned, so will it be; as I have purposed, so will it stand.” Psalm 139 verse 16~ Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be. Proverbs 16 verse 9~ In their hearts humans plan their course, but the Lord establishes their steps. Proverbs 19 verse 21~ Many are the plans in a person's heart, but it is the Lord's purpose that prevails.
 
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The Reformed or “Calvinists,” as they are all too frequently identified, have been viewed as pairing almost dualistically “the nothingness of man” with “the overmastering power of God,” and, accordingly, as teaching a fundamentally predestinarian or deterministic theology—whether in utter accord with Calvin's thought or in a further, negative development of it. (p. 21)
______________________________________

Your nothingness of man presupposition has blinded you to the chagrin of part of your sect and others.
Daniel chapter 4 verse 35

New International Version
All the peoples of the earth are regarded as nothing. He does as he pleases with the powers of heaven
and the peoples of the earth. No one can hold back his hand or say to him: “What have you done?”


But the free willers do!

New Living Translation
All the people of the earth are nothing compared to him. He does as he pleases among the angels of heaven
and among the people of the earth. No one can stop him or say to him, ‘What do you mean by doing these things?’


But the free willers do!

English Standard Version
all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and he does according to his will among the host of
heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand or say to him, “What have you done?”


But the free willers do!

Berean Standard Bible
All the peoples of the earth are counted as nothing, and He does as He pleases with the army of heaven and
the peoples of the earth. There is no one who can restrain His hand or say to Him, ‘What have You done?’”


But the free willers do!

King James Bible
And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven,
and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?


But the free willers do!

New King James Version
All the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; He does according to His will in the army of heaven
And among the inhabitants of the earth. No one can restrain His hand Or say to Him, “What have You done?”


But the free willers do!

New American Standard Bible
“All the inhabitants of the earth are of no account, But He does according to His will among the army of heaven
And among the inhabitants of earth; And no one can fend off His hand Or say to Him, ‘What have You done?’


But the free willers do!

NASB 1995
“All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, But He does according to His will in the host of heaven
And among the inhabitants of earth; And no one can ward off His hand Or say to Him, ‘What have You done?’


But the free willers do!

NASB 1977
“And all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, But He does according to His will in the host of heaven
And among the inhabitants of earth; And no one can ward off His hand Or say to Him, ‘What hast Thou done?’


But the free willers do!

Legacy Standard Bible
And all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, But He does according to His will in the host of heaven
And among the inhabitants of earth; And no one can strike against His hand Or say to Him, ‘What have You done?’


But the free willers do!

Amplified Bible
“All the inhabitants of the earth are regarded as nothing. But He does according to His will in the host of heaven
And among the inhabitants of the earth; And no one can hold back His hand Or say to Him, ‘What have You done?’


But the free willers do!

Christian Standard Bible
All the inhabitants of the earth are counted as nothing, and he does what he wants with the army of heaven and
the inhabitants of the earth. There is no one who can block his hand or say to him, “What have you done? ”


But the free willers do!

Holman Christian Standard Bible
All the inhabitants of the earth are counted as nothing, and He does what He wants with the army of heaven and
the inhabitants of the earth. There is no one who can hold back His hand or say to Him, “What have You done?”


But the free willers do!

American Standard Version
and all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven,
and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?


But the free willers do!

Contemporary English Version
To him the nations are far less than nothing; God controls the stars in the sky and everyone
on this earth. When God does something, we cannot change it or even ask why."


But the free willers do!

English Revised Version
And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven,
and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?


But the free willers do!

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Everyone who lives on earth is nothing compared to him. He does whatever he wishes with the army of heaven
and with those who live on earth. There is no one who can oppose him or ask him, "What are you doing?"


But the free willers do!

Good News Translation
He looks on the people of the earth as nothing; angels in heaven and people on
earth are under his control. No one can oppose his will or question what he does.


But the free willers do!

International Standard Version
All who live on the earth are nothing compared to him. He does what he wishes with the heavenly armies
and with those who live on earth. No one can hold back his power or say to him, 'What did you do?'


But the free willers do!

NET Bible
All the inhabitants of the earth are regarded as nothing. He does as he wishes with the army of heaven
and with those who inhabit the earth. No one slaps his hand and says to him, 'What have you done?'


But the free willers do!

New Heart English Bible
All the inhabitants of the earth are regarded as nothing; and he does according to his will in the host of heaven,
and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or tell him, "What have you done?"


But the free willers do!

Webster's Bible Translation
And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of
heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say to him, What doest thou?


But the free willers do!

Majority Standard Bible
All the peoples of the earth are counted as nothing, and He does as He pleases with the army of heaven and
the peoples of the earth. There is no one who can restrain His hand or say to Him, ‘What have You done?’”


But the free willers do!

World English Bible
All the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he does according to his will in the army of heaven,
and among the inhabitants of the earth; and no one can stop his hand, or ask him, “What are you doing?”


But the free willers do!

Literal Translations
Literal Standard Version
and all who are dwelling on the earth are reckoned as nothing, and according to His will He is doing among the forces of the
heavens and those dwelling on the earth, and there is none that claps with his hand and says to Him, What have You done?


But the free willers do!

Young's Literal Translation
and all who are dwelling on the earth as nothing are reckoned, and according to his will He is doing among the forces of the
heavens and those dwelling on the earth, and there is none that doth clap with his hand, and saith to Him, What hast Thou done?


But the free willers do!

Smith's Literal Translation
And all the generations of the earth being reckoned as nothing: and doing according to his station in the army of the heavens,
and the generations of the earth: and there is none that shall strike upon his hand, and say to him, What didst thou?


But the free willers do!

There are more translations that directly contradict what studier repeatedly says, erroneously
believes, and falsely promotes, but the built-in character limit prohibits including them.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
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593
113
Revelation is progressive in the Bible, so it is impossible to say with certainty. But shedding blood and providing a covering looks alot like remission of sin and imputed righteousness to me.
All the many strikes (about 14 of them if I recall) against Adam are most certainly revealed in scripture and make for very compelling evidence. Where in the scheme of progressive revelation is anything spiritually positive said about Adam? Yet, we do have positive spiritual statements made about Eve (3 of them in fact)! You don't find this fact just a wee bit odd?

The fact that God provided coverings for A&E does not alone prove redemption for either of our first parents since God's provision must be received by faith. Cain and Abel are also proof of this fact!

Logically, speaking, I have to go with the preponderance of biblical evidence both for Eve's redemption and against Adam's. To hang the entire post-Fall account on just one verse (Gen 3:21) is not prudent, wise or logical.
 

Cameron143

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Mar 1, 2022
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All the many strikes (about 14 of them if I recall) against Adam are most certainly revealed in scripture and make for very compelling evidence. Where in the scheme of progressive revelation is anything spiritually positive said about Adam? Yet, we do have positive spiritual statements made about Eve (3 of them in fact)! You don't find this fact just a wee bit odd?

The fact that God provided coverings for A&E does not alone prove redemption for either of our first parents since God's provision must be received by faith. Cain and Abel are also proof of this fact!

Logically, speaking, I have to go with the preponderance of biblical evidence both for Eve's redemption and against Adam's. To hang the entire post-Fall account on just one verse (Gen 3:21) is not prudent, wise or logical.
I'm a little surprised that someone who holds so closely to the sovereignty of God and surety of His grace would, upon seeing such mercy and grace extended, then not conclude that grace to be irresistible.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
4,637
593
113
Daniel chapter 4 verse 35

New International Version
All the peoples of the earth are regarded as nothing. He does as he pleases with the powers of heaven
and the peoples of the earth. No one can hold back his hand or say to him: “What have you done?”


But the free willers do!

New Living Translation
All the people of the earth are nothing compared to him. He does as he pleases among the angels of heaven
and among the people of the earth. No one can stop him or say to him, ‘What do you mean by doing these things?’


But the free willers do!

English Standard Version
all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and he does according to his will among the host of
heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand or say to him, “What have you done?”


But the free willers do!

Berean Standard Bible
All the peoples of the earth are counted as nothing, and He does as He pleases with the army of heaven and
the peoples of the earth. There is no one who can restrain His hand or say to Him, ‘What have You done?’”


But the free willers do!

King James Bible
And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven,
and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?


But the free willers do!

New King James Version
All the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; He does according to His will in the army of heaven
And among the inhabitants of the earth. No one can restrain His hand Or say to Him, “What have You done?”


But the free willers do!

New American Standard Bible
“All the inhabitants of the earth are of no account, But He does according to His will among the army of heaven
And among the inhabitants of earth; And no one can fend off His hand Or say to Him, ‘What have You done?’


But the free willers do!

NASB 1995
“All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, But He does according to His will in the host of heaven
And among the inhabitants of earth; And no one can ward off His hand Or say to Him, ‘What have You done?’


But the free willers do!

NASB 1977
“And all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, But He does according to His will in the host of heaven
And among the inhabitants of earth; And no one can ward off His hand Or say to Him, ‘What hast Thou done?’


But the free willers do!

Legacy Standard Bible
And all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, But He does according to His will in the host of heaven
And among the inhabitants of earth; And no one can strike against His hand Or say to Him, ‘What have You done?’


But the free willers do!

Amplified Bible
“All the inhabitants of the earth are regarded as nothing. But He does according to His will in the host of heaven
And among the inhabitants of the earth; And no one can hold back His hand Or say to Him, ‘What have You done?’


But the free willers do!

Christian Standard Bible
All the inhabitants of the earth are counted as nothing, and he does what he wants with the army of heaven and
the inhabitants of the earth. There is no one who can block his hand or say to him, “What have you done? ”


But the free willers do!

Holman Christian Standard Bible
All the inhabitants of the earth are counted as nothing, and He does what He wants with the army of heaven and
the inhabitants of the earth. There is no one who can hold back His hand or say to Him, “What have You done?”


But the free willers do!

American Standard Version
and all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven,
and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?


But the free willers do!

Contemporary English Version
To him the nations are far less than nothing; God controls the stars in the sky and everyone
on this earth. When God does something, we cannot change it or even ask why."


But the free willers do!

English Revised Version
And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven,
and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?


But the free willers do!

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Everyone who lives on earth is nothing compared to him. He does whatever he wishes with the army of heaven
and with those who live on earth. There is no one who can oppose him or ask him, "What are you doing?"


But the free willers do!

Good News Translation
He looks on the people of the earth as nothing; angels in heaven and people on
earth are under his control. No one can oppose his will or question what he does.


But the free willers do!

International Standard Version
All who live on the earth are nothing compared to him. He does what he wishes with the heavenly armies
and with those who live on earth. No one can hold back his power or say to him, 'What did you do?'


But the free willers do!

NET Bible
All the inhabitants of the earth are regarded as nothing. He does as he wishes with the army of heaven
and with those who inhabit the earth. No one slaps his hand and says to him, 'What have you done?'


But the free willers do!

New Heart English Bible
All the inhabitants of the earth are regarded as nothing; and he does according to his will in the host of heaven,
and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or tell him, "What have you done?"


But the free willers do!

Webster's Bible Translation
And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of
heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say to him, What doest thou?


But the free willers do!

Majority Standard Bible
All the peoples of the earth are counted as nothing, and He does as He pleases with the army of heaven and
the peoples of the earth. There is no one who can restrain His hand or say to Him, ‘What have You done?’”


But the free willers do!

World English Bible
All the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he does according to his will in the army of heaven,
and among the inhabitants of the earth; and no one can stop his hand, or ask him, “What are you doing?”


But the free willers do!

There are more translations that directly contradict what studier repeatedly says, erroneously
believes, and falsely promotes, but the built-in character limit prohibits including them.
(cut to save space)

FWers are long on boasting and bragging about their volitional prowess and powers but come up totally short on the virtue of humility. Just like the ungodly within the world system, FWers must find something upon which to take credit for their own salvation. The sin of pride (which always exalts Self and, therefore, makes all unbelievers idolaters) is at the very core of their humanistic "theology".

Here's another text, they won't like because it doesn't flatter mankind:

Job 25:2-6
2 "Dominion and awe belong to God;
he establishes order in the heights of heaven.
3 Can his forces be numbered?
Upon whom does his light not rise?
4 How then can a man be righteous before God?
How can one born of woman be pure?
5 If even the moon is not bright
and the stars are not pure in his eyes,

6 how much less man, who is but a maggot —
a son of man, who is only a worm !"

NIV
 
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(cut to save space)

FWers are long on boasting and bragging about their volitional prowess and powers but come up totally short on the virtue of humility. Just like the ungodly within the world system, FWers must find something upon which to take credit for their own salvation. The sin of pride (which always exalts Self and, therefore, makes all unbelievers idolaters) is at the very core of their humanistic "theology".

Here's another text, they won't like because it doesn't flatter mankind:

Job 25:2-6
2 "Dominion and awe belong to God;
he establishes order in the heights of heaven.
3 Can his forces be numbered?
Upon whom does his light not rise?
4 How then can a man be righteous before God?
How can one born of woman be pure?
5 If even the moon is not bright
and the stars are not pure in his eyes,

6 how much less man, who is but a maggot —
a son of man, who is only a worm !"

NIV
I know... and there are so very many verses that directly contradict what the free willers believe
it is absolutely impossible to include them all on one panel even if I exclude a figure! I know
because I have tried and also I have attempted grouping certain themes together to keep
focused on one element of the discussion using verses that teach the opposite of what they
promote, but even doing that it becomes difficult to include all relevant verses.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
4,637
593
113
I'm a little surprised that someone who holds so closely to the sovereignty of God and surety of His grace would, upon seeing such mercy and grace extended, then not conclude that grace to be irresistible.
Surely, there was grace in the Law of Moses in terms of redemptive provisions that was extended to all Israel, so does this mean that God saved all Israel? Was not the nation known for paying huge lip service to the Lord while Israel's heart was far removed from Him?

I just cannot proclaim Adam's salvation based upon one verse -- a text that does not speak to Adam's faith or repentance. Nor can I posit such salvation for anyone when scripture consistently speaks of a person in negative terms, which is precisely the case with Adam.
 
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The natural man and fools are characterized as or known for:

1. being wicked (2 Samuel 13:13; Psalm 94:3,8)
2. mockers of God (Psalm 74:22)
3. not understanding their bleak eternal destiny (Psalm 92:6)
4. being rebellious (Psalm 107:17)
5. despising spiritual wisdom (Proverbs 1:7)
6. hating spiritual knowledge (Proverbs 1:22)
7. mockers delighting in mockery (Proverbs 1:22)
8. being wayward and complacent (Proverbs 1:32)
9. being wicked and held up to shame by God (Proverbs 3:33,35)
10. dying for their lack of knowledge (Proverbs 10:21)
11. having hearts that blurt out folly (Proverbs 12:23)
12. detesting the thought to turn away from evil (Proverbs 13:19)
13. bringing harm to their companions (Proverbs 13:20)
14. folly in their heart that is deception (Proverbs 14:8)
15. mockers at making amends for their sins (Proverbs 14:9)
16. known for their folly that only yields folly (Proverbs 14:24)
17. not spreading true [spiritual] knowledge (Proverbs15:7)
18. their folly that brings them punishment (Proverbs 16:22)

19. being ignorant of their wrong-doings (Ecclesiastes 5:1)
20. being unpleasing to God (Ecclesiastes 5:4)
21. having hearts that are in the house of pleasure (Ecclesiastes7:4)
22. their laughter as being meaningless (Ecclesiastes 7:6)
23. their anger residing in their laps (Ecclesiastes 7:9)
24. thinking of themselves as wise counselors but only giving senseless advice (Isaiah 19:11)
25. not being willing to walk in the Way of Holiness (Isaiah 35:8)
26. not knowing God (Jeremiah 4:22)
27. being false prophets (Jeremiah 50:36)
28. being equated with the wicked (1 Samuel 25:25)

29. at times for recognizing themselves as being great sinners (1 Samuel 26:21)
30. resentment or envy slaying them (Job 5:2)
31. denying the existence of God (Psalm 14:1; 53:1)
32. their chattering that bring them to ruin (Proverbs 10:10,14)
33. the spreaders of slander (Proverbs 10:18)
34. finding pleasure in evil conduct (Proverbs 10:23)
35. choosing a way that seems right to them and ignoring good advice (Proverbs 12:15)
36. angering quickly (Proverbs 12:16; 20:3; 29:11)
37. exposing their own folly (Proverbs 13:16)
38. being hotheaded and reckless (Proverbs 14:16)
39. having mouths that gush folly (Proverbs 15:2)
40. having mouths that feed on folly (Proverbs 15:14)
41. spurning their father's discipline (Proverbs 15:5)
42. having no desire to get wisdom (Proverbs 17:16)
43. finding no pleasure in understanding (Proverbs 18:2)
44. delighting in airing their own opinions (Proverbs 18:2)
45. having perverse lips (Proverbs 19:1)
46. scorning the wisdom of wise words if the wise speak to them (Proverbs23:9)
47. their proverbs being as useless as a lame man's legs hanging limp (Proverbs 26:7).
48. a dog that returns to its vomit when it repeats its folly (Proverbs 26:11)
49. their provocation which is heavier than stone and sand (Proverbs 27:3)
50. their great reluctance in removing their folly from themselves (Proverbs 27:22)
51. trusting in themselves (Proverbs 28:26)
52. raging and scoffing at the wise man with whom he goes to court (Proverbs 29:9)
53. playing the fool, exalting themselves or planning evil (Proverbs 30:32)
54. walking in the darkness (Ecclesiastes 2:14)
55. folding their hands and bringing ruin to themselves (Ecclesiastes 4:5)
56. their speech pours out many words (Ecclesiastes 5:3)
57. lacking sense and showing everyone how stupid they are (Ecclesiastes 10:13)
58. being consumed by their own lips (Ecclesiastes 10:12)
59. multiplying their own words (Ecclesiastes 10:14)
60. speaking folly (Isaiah 32:6)
61. their minds being busy with evil (Isaiah 32:6)
62. practicing ungodliness and spreading error concerning the Lord (Isaiah 32:6)
63. leaving the hungry empty and withholding water from the thirsty (Isaiah 32:6)
64. gaining riches by unjust gains (Jer 17:11)
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
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Deuteronomy chapter 9 verses 3-5 But understand that today the LORD your God goes across ahead of you as a consuming fire; He will destroy them and subdue them before you. And you will drive them
out and annihilate them swiftly, as the LORD has promised you. When the LORD your God has driven
them out before you, do not say in your heart, “Because of my righteousness the LORD has brought

me in to possess this land.” Rather, the LORD is driving out these nations before you because of their
wickedness. It is not because of your righteousness or uprightness of heart that you are going in to
possess their land, but it is because of their wickedness that the LORD your God is driving out these

nations before you, to keep the promise He swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
A great passage that proves that God cannot possibly be biased for or against anyone, since there is NOTHING in man to warrant such bias or favor.
 
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A great passage that proves that God cannot possibly be biased for or against
anyone, since there is NOTHING in man to warrant such bias or favor.
It seems free willers have the exact same problem that God took issue with the ancient Israelites: self exaltation.

Surely there are other terms we could use and apply... and they would likely all fall into the category of idolatry, led by pride.

Why do none of them see it? Who has so thoroughly deceived them? <= rhetorical questions.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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Surely, there was grace in the Law of Moses in terms of redemptive provisions that was extended to all Israel, so does this mean that God saved all Israel? Was not the nation known for paying huge lip service to the Lord while Israel's heart was far removed from Him?

I just cannot proclaim Adam's salvation based upon one verse -- a text that does not speak to Adam's faith or repentance. Nor can I posit such salvation for anyone when scripture consistently speaks of a person in negative terms, which is precisely the case with Adam.
The grace of the law was not salvation, but preservation. The grace in remission of sins and imputed righteousness is salvific. You don't have to believe anything I've shared, but it fits far better with reformed theology than your current understanding.
 

Rufus

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It's 2 different things. One deals with God not being a respecter of persons, and the other the warning of Paul as to how the Christian should live.
Not being a respecter of persons is ancillary to the warning Paul is giving and one would need to do a broader study to fully understand its meaning. As far as the warning goes, Paul is often found exhorting those in the faith to live in particular fashions. The book of Hebrews alone contains 5 such warnings to remain faithful in the ways of God in the face of persecution. It is the nature of of sheep to stray, and some respond only to fear and not compassion, as written by Jude...22-23.
The "sheep" metaphor is yet another figure of speech that FWers play loose and fancy with! Sheep are not only among the dumbest animals on the planet but they also lack physical strength and speed to protect themselves from all their natural enemies. Sheep always required the care of shepherds. The "sheep" metaphors harmonizes nicely with the idea of helpless sinners!
 

lrs68

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Everyone mentioned in the Lineage of Yeshua we believe is saved. Adam is the first name listed in the Lineage of Yeshua. Can't imagine anyone listed in the Lineage connected to Yeshua would not be in Heaven.
 

Rufus

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The grace of the law was not salvation, but preservation. The grace in remission of sins and imputed righteousness is salvific. You don't have to believe anything I've shared, but it fits far better with reformed theology than your current understanding.
I totally disagree with that! There was indeed saving grace in the Law for all those who by faith embraced God's gracious, redemptive, atoning provisions that He embedded into the Law through the Levitical Priesthood.
 

Cameron143

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I totally disagree with that! There was indeed saving grace in the Law for all those who by faith embraced God's gracious, redemptive, atoning provisions that He embedded into the Law through the Levitical Priesthood.
Impossible to find salvation through the law because of the weakness of the flesh. And you switched from your argument of the law to faith. Of course the law is a schoolmaster to lead us to Christ.
 
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For in Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set you free from the law of sin and death.
For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the flesh, God did by
sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful man, as an offering for sin. He thus
condemned sin in the flesh, so that the righteous standard of the law might be
fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.



From Hebrews 10 verses 1, 4, and 1 Corinthians 5 verse 7 The law is only a shadow of the good things to come, not the realities themselves... because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. Christ our Passover Lamb has been sacrificed for us. Thank you, Jesus!
 

Rufus

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Everyone mentioned in the Lineage of Yeshua we believe is saved. Adam is the first name listed in the Lineage of Yeshua. Can't imagine anyone listed in the Lineage connected to Yeshua would not be in Heaven.
But Yeshua is not in Adam's lineage! He's in Eve's! If Adam was saved after the Fall, why doesn't Jesus descend from Adam's seed, instead of Eve's?

It's only fitting that Adam is listed in Luke's lineage since he was created by God directly -- not procreated as the rest of the people included in the lineage.

Furthermore, Eve is not included in any lineage in the NT -- yet, the Messiah descended from her!