Understanding God’s election

[studier]

It means God doesn't choose based on anything in man.

Please support your statement with Scripture. A few places to begin:

How does this work re: Cornelius in Acts10?How does this work for John4:23?

Daniel 4:35.

Thanks, but using a verse speaking of a disobedient king God has disciplined, who was thus living out in the fields eating grass with oxen, finally comes to his senses, and realizes how powerful God is, and then says all the inhabitants of the land are considered nothing, really doesn't support your statement that God doesn't choose based upon anything in a man.

Why not read with an open mind Acts10 re: Cornelius and note why God selected to send Peter to him. Why not read John4:23 and see that God per Jesus is seeking men who will bow in obeisance to Him (which was the word translated "worship" means)?

I think it's extremely clear from Scripture that God evaluates men and chooses accordingly. For many years I've noted how few if any ever seem to speak of this verse: 35 "But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted (welcomed) by Him. (Acts 10:35 NKJ)

 

[Cameron143]

You are our resident calvie word salad genius.

@studier is our resident Armin word salad genius.

Lucky, we have Bible doctrine to sort the "smart guys" stuff.

Salvation is ALWAYS for ALL. At all times and in ALL places.........And @studier , we will never, no, not ever perish.

I'm not a Calvinist as you suggest. And if you were as smart as you suggest, please share with me why God at various times hasn't brought the gospel to every people group? He saved the Ninevites, but not the Assyrians. He left people in the Americas without the gospel for centuries. For most of its existence, the peoples in China were void of the gospel. How then is the gospel for all peoples in all times? Did God forget these people existed? Your statement is easily found to be false. But what is true is that the gospel is for every nation, kindred, tribe, and tongue when God visits it upon different regions and at various times.

God, from the beginning, has been at work in the world, creating and then drawing a people for Himself. And we, as the people of God, have a responsibility to see where He is working and join Him in that work. That is how Jesus operated...John 5:19..., and this should be our modus operandi. It is an exercise in futility to work where God is not working. It may produce the fruit of men, but it will never produce the fruit of God.

There is an older but excellent book on this subject called Experiencing God by Blackaby that I would recommend to all.

 

[bluejean_bible]

The natural man can understand that they are a sinner in need of salvation. And the Lord Jesus Christ SHOWED all that salvation is through Him alone.

Bunches(Many) of natural men on this forum can't see this simple truth.

That's because the Bible,Jesus,didn't teach that.

You're contradicting God's word.

 

[studier]

It's hard to tell if you are genuine or facetious, but on the off chance that you cannot understand what I am relaying, here goes:
Romans 8:7 speaks of the enmity of the carnal mind towards God.
I can teach the gospel to a 6 year old in a manner they will understand. The ability to comprehend the gospel isn't the problem. It is man's inability to understand that hinders faith. It is his built in animosity towards God and the things of God. Romans 8 goes on to explain that such a one is not subject to the law, norcantheybe...so they can't be obedient. Further, they cannot please God. So how does someone hostile to God, not subject to the law, and unable to please God...cannot operate in faith, suddenly do what the Apostle says they cannot do? Do they spontaneously make themselves able to do so? Because your explanation of faith, and all that attends it, requires that a carnal man be able to do so. Conversely, my explanation has God working in the carnal man to enable faith to be birthed in him.
If you want to explore the particular case of Cornelius, we can. But Cornelius isn't going to change the truth of what is taught in Romans 8. Nothing in Acts 10 will disagree with Romans 8.
And yes, given what Romans 8 teaches, God must act within an individual before that individual comes to faith.

Acts10 doesn't disagree with Rom8. Rom8 is not talking about coming to believe the Gospel.

Rom8 following Rom7 is dealing with living according to Torah and until one believes Jesus is the Christ and Christ frees him from imprisonment to sin and he is given the Spirit to walk in, he cannot live in a way that righteousness can be fulfilled in him.

Once again, you're not taking into account that there was a faithful Remnant in Israel who did receive their Messiah and when God opened His Salvation Plan to the Gentiles, there was Cornelius fearing God and working righteousness and God welcomed him and evangelized him.

 

[Cameron143]

Thanks, but using a verse speaking of a disobedient king God has disciplined, who was thus living out in the fields eating grass with oxen, finally comes to his senses, and realizes how powerful God is, and then says all the inhabitants of the land are considered nothing, really doesn't support your statement that God doesn't choose based upon anything in a man.

Why not read with an open mind Acts10 re: Cornelius and note why God selected to send Peter to him. Why not read John4:23 and see that God per Jesus is seeking men who will bow in obeisance to Him (which was the word translated "worship" means)?

I think it's extremely clear from Scripture that God evaluates men and chooses accordingly. For many years I've noted how few if any ever seem to speak of this verse: 35 "But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted (welcomed) by Him. (Acts 10:35 NKJ)

Your assumptions concerning Cornelius are wrong. They don't reconcile with Romans 8. If you believe God is responding to something in Cornelius, you must first explain how what is said to be true of Cornelius came to be true of him in light of Roman 8. How did a man who was born with a carnal nature, who is at enmity with God, who is not subject to the law, who cannot please God and, thus, is unable to exercise faith, come to be described as fearing God, working righteousness, and accepted of God? We are not told this in Acts 10. It is merely stated as being true. Given Romans 8, do you believe he entered this estate apart from God?

 

[Cameron143]

Acts10 doesn't disagree with Rom8. Rom8 is not talking about coming to believe the Gospel.

Rom8 following Rom7 is dealing with living according to Torah and until one believes Jesus is the Christ and Christ frees him from imprisonment to sin and he is given the Spirit to walk in, he cannot live in a way that righteousness can be fulfilled in him.

Once again, you're not taking into account that there was a faithful Remnant in Israel who did receive their Messiah and when God opened His Salvation Plan to the Gentiles, there was Cornelius fearing God and working righteousness and God welcomed him and evangelized him.

It actually says one in such an estate can neither be obedient because they are not subject to the law nor able to act in faith as they cannot please God.
I don't deny that there were Jews who were saved. I'm simply saying that just like everyone else, something or Someone was responsible for the change in their estate.

 

[Cameron143]

Acts10 doesn't disagree with Rom8. Rom8 is not talking about coming to believe the Gospel.

Rom8 following Rom7 is dealing with living according to Torah and until one believes Jesus is the Christ and Christ frees him from imprisonment to sin and he is given the Spirit to walk in, he cannot live in a way that righteousness can be fulfilled in him.

Once again, you're not taking into account that there was a faithful Remnant in Israel who did receive their Messiah and when God opened His Salvation Plan to the Gentiles, there was Cornelius fearing God and working righteousness and God welcomed him and evangelized him.

You don't get it. It is descriptive of the condition of fallen man. And it clearly indicates that someone in that estate cannot please God or exercise faith.
Now take the leap...if someone is unable to obey God or exercise faith, how can they obey the command to believe or be saved by faith? They cannot. Something must be altered before those things can happen. Since man, himself, is unable to alter his estate, the necessity of God to bring grace.

 

[studier]

They all heard the same message. Why didn't they all come to faith?

Firstly, where does it say in Acts2 that not all believed?

Secondly, there were many in Israel who had not believed and there is Scripture like this that speaks of them and interestingly ties their rejection of Jesus to their human will: 39 You study the scriptures thoroughly because you think in them you possess eternal life, and it is these same scriptures that testify about me, 40 but you are not willing to come to me so that you may have life. (Jn. 5:39-40 NET).

I think you know this matter re: Israel.

 

[Cameron143]

Firstly, where does it say in Acts2 that not all believed?

Secondly, there were many in Israel who had not believed and there is Scripture like this that speaks of them and interestingly ties their rejection of Jesus to their human will: 39 You study the scriptures thoroughly because you think in them you possess eternal life, and it is these same scriptures that testify about me, 40 but you are not willing to come to me so that you may have life. (Jn. 5:39-40 NET).

I think you know this matter re: Israel.

You make my point...they are not willing. Such is the estate of the natural man.

Are you saying that there were only 3000 people who heard Peter's message?

 

[Magenta]

You don't get it. It is descriptive of the condition of fallen man. And it clearly indicates that someone in that estate cannot please God or exercise faith.
Now take the leap...if someone is unable to obey God or exercise faith, how can they obey the command to believe or be saved by faith? They cannot. Something must be altered before those things can happen. Since man, himself, is unable to alter his estate, the necessity of God to bring grace.

Pelagian heretics without fail have the corrupt tree bringing forth good fruit. They deny a plethora of verses to do so.

Pelagian heretics insist man is inherently good. From within the hearts of men come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, wickedness, deceit, debauchery, envy, slander, arrogance, and foolishness. Mark 7:21-22 Every inclination of man's heart is evil from his youth. Genesis 8:21b Who can bring out clean from unclean? No one! Job 14:4 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Matthew 7:18

 

[studier]

It actually says one in such an estate can neither be obedient because they are not subject to the law nor able to act in faith as they cannot please God.
I don't deny that there were Jews who were saved. I'm simply saying that just like everyone else, something or Someone was responsible for the change in their estate.

Paul hasn't said there was no faith in Israel and Heb11, which you're drawing from, says there was faith from Abel on in history. Nor does Paul say there was absolutely no obedience to God which would conflict with for example Luke1:5-6 and even with Paul himself Phil3:6 and with the concept of there being no faith.

Jesus Christ and God's Good News about His Son and all the signs and wonders being done - God as first mover - brought men to see and hear and learn and believe Jesus is YHWH's Christ.

 

[Cameron143]

Paul hasn't said there was no faith in Israel and Heb11, which you're drawing from, says there was faith from Abel on in history. Nor does Paul say there was absolutely no obedience to God which would conflict with for example Luke1:5-6 and even with Paul himself Phil3:6 and with the concept of there being no faith.

Jesus Christ and God's Good News about His Son and all the signs and wonders being done - God as first mover - brought men to see and hear and learn and believe Jesus is YHWH's Christ.

Paul categorically states that the carnal man is not subject to the law. Hence, no obedience. He also categorically states that the carnal man cannot please God. Hence, he cannot exercise faith, because without faith it is impossible to please God. This is the condition of all unsaved people.
So...how does someone in this estate obey the command to believe or any other command? And how does faith operate in them to bring them to salvation without the ability to exercise faith within themselves?

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

Paul categorically states that the carnal man is not subject to the law. Hence, no obedience. He also categorically states that the carnal man cannot please God. Hence, he cannot exercise faith, because without faith it is impossible to please God. This is the condition of all unsaved people.
So...how does someone in this estate obey the command to believe or any other command? And how does faith operate in them to bring them to salvation without the ability to exercise faith within themselves?

Well ask yourself how YOU got saved. Then answer your own question.


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[studier]

You are our resident calvie word salad genius.

@studier is our resident Armin word salad genius.

Lucky, we have Bible doctrine to sort the "smart guys" stuff.

Salvation is ALWAYS for ALL. At all times and in ALL places.........And @studier , we will never, no, not ever perish.

Spoken like a Bible doctrine oriented free grace dispensationalist. Ever heard the disparaging term, Thiemeite? It used to raise my blood pressure. I gave up considering all these isms and ists quite some time ago and have learned along the way that most have been taught systematic traditions, like yourself, but cannot really get into Scripture in any depth, so they're just parroting what they've heard and speaking out against other traditions.

Thanks for including me in your last sentence addressed to me. Ready to go anytime He wills.

 

[Magenta]

Paul categorically states that the carnal man is not subject to the law. Hence, no obedience. He also categorically states that the carnal man cannot please God. Hence, he cannot exercise faith, because without faith it is impossible to please God. This is the condition of all unsaved people.
So...how does someone in this estate obey the command to believe or any other command? And how does faith operate in them to bring them to salvation without the ability to exercise faith within themselves?

It doesn't. When His disciples asked Jesus about who could be saved, Jesus said it was impossible with man. He clarified that it is only possible with God. Scripture plainly states this truth elsewhere, that salvation is by the will of God, not the desire or effort of man.

 

[GWH]

I'm glad you agree God acts sovereignly.

And I will be glad when you agree God acts both sovereignly and lovingly.

 

[Cameron143]

Well ask yourself how YOU got saved. Then answer your own question.


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I know how. God came to me, changed my mind and heart, and thus my will was changed. Instead of being opposed to the gospel, I received it with gladness and believed on the Lord Jesus Christ. Admittingly, I didn't understand all that had happened until much later. At the time I simply knew that my life had been forever changed. I knew I was forgiven and wanted to know all I could about this God who saved me.

 

[Kroogz]

The natural man can understand that they are a sinner in need of salvation. And the Lord Jesus Christ SHOWED all that salvation is through Him alone.

Bunches(Many) of natural men on this forum can't see this simple truth.

@bluejean_bible ......More believers need to call you out.

The Gospel is for ALL men, everywhere and at any time. Only Satan and natural men disagree.

 

[bluejean_bible]

And I will be glad when you agree God acts both sovereignly and lovingly.

The Midianites might disagree.

 

[Cameron143]

And I will be glad when you agree God acts both sovereignly and lovingly.

I don't deny that God acts lovingly. But can you find the scripture that states God always acts lovingly? I can find where God always acts righteously, but have been unable to find where God always acts lovingly. And it is more than a stretch in my view that God casting an individual into the lake of fire is a loving act.