Understanding God’s election
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I understand what you believe. I'm trying to ascertain why you believe as you do. And again, I am not trying to go further than you feel comfortable. But my question was to find out what undergirds what you believe. Is there anything within the character or ways of God, in your understanding, that precludes God from choosing?
FYI, while I do believe God chooses some to salvation, I don't believe He has made any for destruction. I believe men fit themselves for destruction.
FYI, while I do believe God chooses some to salvation, I don't believe He has made any for destruction. I believe men fit themselves for destruction.
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God does all things for His glory. Choosing would be included in this. And hopefully we aren't heading down the same road as last time where I ask you questions, you refuse to answer, and then ask me questions.
I did you the courtesy of answering your questions, yet you refused to answer mine. Would you please answer my questions before asking some in return?
I did you the courtesy of answering your questions, yet you refused to answer mine. Would you please answer my questions before asking some in return?
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I refer you to what I just said. I have no problem that Scripture tells us that God chooses.
It's not a matter of my comfort, but a matter of desiring that Christians be able or willing to explain their opinions in detail in context from Scripture. Except for a few individuals, this normally is not the case on forums.
In general, I see God having made His Prothesis in Christ before the foundation of the kosmos. Again, in general, I see men choosing to retain or reject God in knowledge (which you and I have discussed to some degree) and I see men choosing to receive or to reject Jesus as YHWH's Christ. In both cases, God must be and is the first cause and the work to offer and inform men of Himself and of His Christ is His apart from which men could and would not even know of Him. Men have absolutely no reason to take credit for what only God could do and did.
The reason I say "in general" is because, for example, when I read of men like John the Baptist, I wonder if they could really have rejected who God said they would be and what God said they would do (which included believing in Him and in His Son). IOW, we can see in Biblical history how God steps in at times and does something supernatural to move and direct history. Messiah needed a forerunner to proclaim Him. John was born and his parents were told in advance who their son would be.
With this said, one matter of election does not need to be as others. I do not agree with TULIP but this is a broad stroke and an example of why I only ultimately desire to discuss from Scripture, but not in a haphazard, proof-texting fashion.
It's not a matter of my comfort, but a matter of desiring that Christians be able or willing to explain their opinions in detail in context from Scripture. Except for a few individuals, this normally is not the case on forums.
In general, I see God having made His Prothesis in Christ before the foundation of the kosmos. Again, in general, I see men choosing to retain or reject God in knowledge (which you and I have discussed to some degree) and I see men choosing to receive or to reject Jesus as YHWH's Christ. In both cases, God must be and is the first cause and the work to offer and inform men of Himself and of His Christ is His apart from which men could and would not even know of Him. Men have absolutely no reason to take credit for what only God could do and did.
The reason I say "in general" is because, for example, when I read of men like John the Baptist, I wonder if they could really have rejected who God said they would be and what God said they would do (which included believing in Him and in His Son). IOW, we can see in Biblical history how God steps in at times and does something supernatural to move and direct history. Messiah needed a forerunner to proclaim Him. John was born and his parents were told in advance who their son would be.
With this said, one matter of election does not need to be as others. I do not agree with TULIP but this is a broad stroke and an example of why I only ultimately desire to discuss from Scripture, but not in a haphazard, proof-texting fashion.
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This is a clever swich-a-roo. I asked you some very specific questions which you answered broadly. I ask you again to answer my questions and you pull some questions from a post directed towards another poster rather than answer the questions I directed towards you. You also didn't copy my entire post as I have asked of you when quoting my posts. Why the slick behavior? Why can't you simply answer the direct questions I asked?
Not sure that I understand your point entirely, but if I do, not really. However, I think I see how you came to that conclusion based upon 1 Peter 1:1. However, to understand who actually is in view in 1:1, it is important to consider 1Peter 2:9 -10 too. Old categorizations/labels such as Jew and Gentile as used in the OC earthly context, lost significance through Christ. The elect, regardless of human linage, became the people of God by being chosen/elected by God. In 1 Peter 2:9-10 (below), Peter emphasizes their new spiritual linage and relationship with God through Christ - that they have become a completely new people. Paul in Galatians 3:27 -29 essentially tells us the same thing.
[1Pe 1:1 ESV]
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who are elect exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
[1Pe 1:1 KJV]
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
[1Pe 2:9-10 ESV]
9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.
10 Once you were not a people, but now you are God's people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.
[1Pe 2:9-10 KJV]
9 But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
10 Which in time past [were] not a people, but [are] now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
[Gal 3:28-29 ESV]
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.
[Gal 3:28-29 KJV]
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
[1Pe 1:1 ESV]
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who are elect exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
[1Pe 1:1 KJV]
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
[1Pe 2:9-10 ESV]
9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.
10 Once you were not a people, but now you are God's people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.
[1Pe 2:9-10 KJV]
9 But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
10 Which in time past [were] not a people, but [are] now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
[Gal 3:28-29 ESV]
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.
[Gal 3:28-29 KJV]
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
By being chosen by God to be in Christ Jesus, is how one is chosen unto salvation, but it is by/through the Spirit, not man.
[Rom 8:1-2 KJV]
1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
[Rom 8:1-2 ESV]
1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.
[Rom 8:1-2 KJV]
1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
[Rom 8:1-2 ESV]
1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.
Men's default position is unbelief, and, thus, condemnation. God doesn't have to do anything for someone to remain unsaved. He must act for someone to be saved.
Also, weren't you the one who distinguished the audience for verses. The audience of the verse you cite is also a believer...see 2 Timothy 2:1.
Also, weren't you the one who distinguished the audience for verses. The audience of the verse you cite is also a believer...see 2 Timothy 2:1.
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I didn't like my last reply to you, so I'll try to clarify it now. if I understand you correctly, your point is that it is up to us to believe in Christ in order to become Christians, and by becoming Christians, adopted in Christ. If so, I disagree.
Do you see in Eph 1:5 the "predestined us for adoption to himself AS SONS"? We can see in it that, on an individual basis, we were predestined unto adoption. It does not state that people were predestined for adoption because they became Christians - it is in the reverse - that we were adopted and subsequently became Christians by first having been predestined to that adoption by God. Gal 4:4 - 6 also demonstrates adoption unto sonship occurring on a person-by-person basis; that is, having first been predestinated, we become adopted as sons, by which, the Spirit enters into our spiritual hearts so that we call-out to God as Father and we as sons. It is all by God, nothing by us.
It's kind of late for me so I may not have been very clear in this post either. I'll review it again in in the morning and if needed, repost.
[Eph 1:5 ESV]
5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
[Gal 4:4-6 ESV]
4 But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law,
5 to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons.
6 And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!"
Do you see in Eph 1:5 the "predestined us for adoption to himself AS SONS"? We can see in it that, on an individual basis, we were predestined unto adoption. It does not state that people were predestined for adoption because they became Christians - it is in the reverse - that we were adopted and subsequently became Christians by first having been predestined to that adoption by God. Gal 4:4 - 6 also demonstrates adoption unto sonship occurring on a person-by-person basis; that is, having first been predestinated, we become adopted as sons, by which, the Spirit enters into our spiritual hearts so that we call-out to God as Father and we as sons. It is all by God, nothing by us.
It's kind of late for me so I may not have been very clear in this post either. I'll review it again in in the morning and if needed, repost.
[Eph 1:5 ESV]
5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
[Gal 4:4-6 ESV]
4 But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law,
5 to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons.
6 And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!"