Understanding God’s election

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rogerg

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2021
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Faith is not a work.
Not only is faith a work but is God's work unto those whom He has chosen for salvation. Anything that someone must "do"
to become saved, regardless of what it is, makes it a work, and not only a work, but a law of salvation, because, if not
achieved, then the person cannot not saved. Conversely, those who believe in God grace and faith as a gift of God's, is it not a work
but a gift.

[Jhn 6:29 KJV] 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
 

HeIsHere

Well-known member
May 21, 2022
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Ordo salutis according to scripture

1) Faith/Belief placed in Christ Jesus based on life giving message of the Gospel for those who have ears to hear (not an internal supernatural gnosis)

Then

2) regenerated, changed heart, spiritual quickening, redeemed, justified, positionally sanctified


Faith cannot be the antecedent of "that" (Ephesians 2:8)
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
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They don't possess it. Our faith is not what saves us; Christ's faith is what saves us. The saving faith is Christ's faith. That's what make Him the Savior. Our faith comes as a result of His salvation; it does not bring us salvation - it is result not cause. Before being born, we are chosen to be saved but becoming saved itself occurs at a point in time in our lives of God's choosing.
Wow. That is a whole heaping helping of Calvinite bafflegab right there buddy.
And I already ate my lunch.
 
Jul 3, 2015
61,660
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Ordo salutis according to scripture

1) Faith/Belief placed in Christ Jesus based on life giving message of the Gospel for those who have ears to hear (not an internal supernatural gnosis)

Then

2) regenerated, changed heart, spiritual quickening, redeemed, justified, positionally sanctified


Faith cannot be the antecedent of "that" (Ephesians 2:8)
Scripture says His sheep hear His voice. In your theology, is everyone His sheep? :unsure: It would seem important to be able to identify who is able to hear. Not only that, but to acknowledge how it is that people are able to hear. Jesus did say He came to give sight to the blind and hearing to the deaf and raise people to new life. Also of course defining what it is that hearing means, because it isn't just your ears picking up the vibrational frequencies that enable you to realize that sounds are flowing through the air. Hearing needs to encompass comprehension and the gospel message is foolishness to the natural man.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
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Yes, that's correct, many people do not believe in the Trinity and use that very reason. But have provided Scripture that says the exact opposite of TULIP, there lies the difference. We know that God loves the sinner, His Word says so. We can revisit the Bible verses again if you wish.
In other words, your complaint about "tulip" not being explicitly stated in the bible, just like the term "trinity" isn't, is bogus. The real reason you believe in the triunity of God is because the trinitarian concept is often found in the bible -- just like the concepts for each letter that represents a specific doctrine in the acronym of TULIP are, which is why Reformed believers believe in those doctrines.

And, no, no one has refuted the Doctrines of Grace. The "Scripture(s)" that you claim "says the exact opposite" are grossly misinterpreted, such as 1Jn 2:2 which I refuted again very recently in its own immediate context for Mr. Bain. Or the scriptures that you FWers claim teach unregenerate man's ability to make choices contrary to his his evil nature, which, again, I recently refuted by citing the Law of Moses which required perfect obedience at all times under all circumstances, and also by citing Jn 8:11 wherein Jesus commanded the "adulterous" woman to stop sinning.

You say above that "We know that God loves the sinner". As a FWer, I take it that you mean by this God loves all sinners in the distributive sense? If so, then consider these two passages in Proverbs 11. The first of which is:

Prov 11:1
The LORD
abhors dishonest scales,
but accurate weights are his delight

NIV

It's very likely that the vast majority of people here would agree that God hates (or abhors or detests) sin, since all sin is infinitely offensive to God's holy character. Just one sin is sufficient to condemn a person for all eternity. The Heb. term two ebah (Strong's 8441) rendered as "abhors" in the above text is defined according to BLB.org:

tôwʻêbah, to-ay-baw'; or תֹּעֵבַה tôʻêbah; feminine active participle of H8581; properly, something disgusting (morally), i.e. (as noun) an abhorrence; especially idolatry or (concretely) an idol:—abominable (custom, thing), abomination.

https://www.blbclassic.org/lang/lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H8441&t=KJV

This Hebrew term is used a second time in this chapter, as follows:

Prov 11:20
20 The LORD
detests men of perverse heart
but he delights in those whose ways are blameless.

NIV

Ouch! So, this very same Hebrew word is used to tell us that God abhors (or detests) sin and the sinner alike! But how can this possibly be since God loves everyone in the world in the distributive sense according to you FWers? But not only does God supposedly love each and every person in the world, but he loves them unconditionally according to most within the Church. (Even the Reformed Presbyterian pastor at my previous church believed this!)

So...how do you explain this? How do you reconcile God's universal AND unconditional love for all mankind with Prov 11:20? I also invite anyone to jump into this discussion to reconcile these conflicting beliefs.




 

rogerg

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2021
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Wow. That is a whole heaping helping of Calvinite bafflegab right there buddy.
And I already ate my lunch.
You asked. It's not my fault that you are unable to accept the doctrine of salvation by God's grace alone.
What do you think the purpose and role of a Savior is? You do believe that Christ is the Savior, don't you?
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
24,145
8,743
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Not only is faith a work but is God's work unto those whom He has chosen for salvation. Anything that someone must "do"
to become saved, regardless of what it is, makes it a work, and not only a work, but a law of salvation, because, if not
achieved, then the person cannot not saved. Conversely, those who believe in God grace and faith as a gift of God's, is it not a work
but a gift.
So you are telling us that the gospel message to the world is impotent and useless?
 

HeIsHere

Well-known member
May 21, 2022
6,578
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Hhhmmmm. Could be referring to the ASSURANCE in the operation of God.
Probably does. A perfect fit.

Another Calvinite myth bites the dust eh?

[Col 2:12 KJV]
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the assurance G4102 of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

[Act 17:31 KJV]
Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by [that] man whom he hath ordained; [whereof] he hath given assurance[G4102] unto all [men], in that he hath raised him from the dead.

[Heb 10:22 KJV]
Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith,[G4102] having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

That certainly is more consistent with the overall message of scripture.

One thing is for sure, it is NOT the strength of their dogma, it has been found wanting over and over, out of context, inconsistent nor

true to the original language and by many here on this Discussion Board

......but really what is at play and obvious is the strength/depth of the indoctrination.
 

Kroogz

Well-known member
Dec 5, 2023
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g an event from the past or is it describing the "how to?"
It cannot based on Ephesians 2:8.
Sorry scripture does not contradict itself.
Believe as you will, I pray others will not.
One thing I remember to ask every time. Is the passage describing an event that has already taken place? Or is it describing the "how to?"

Voices and tenses can get very tricky between the two.

Acts 16:31 is the "how to."
 

rogerg

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2021
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So you are telling us that the gospel message to the world is impotent and useless?
Not at all. No one knows who the elect are before they become saved, and it is our responsibility as Christians to distribute the
gospel regardless of whether or not we believe they will become saved. If elect, they will eventually become saved and respond to the gospel and demonstrate a belief in Christ which accompanies salvation. But salvation comes first, with it being from/by God not man. Otherwise, it would be by our works and not by grace.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
24,145
8,743
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You asked. It's not my fault that you are unable to accept the doctrine of salvation by God's grace alone.
What do you think the purpose and role of a Savior is? You do believe that Christ is the Savior, don't you?
I believe that the Philippian jailer did it right. Thats about it.

The truth is that he nor his family had time to pontificate upon a stack of pseudo-erudite Greek tragedy commentaries.
No doubt that he could care less about plumbing the depths of esoteric Calvinite dogma at that point in his life.
And if he would have tried, he would have died.

So you could say that NOT getting sucked into the Calvinite vortex of doom was his saving grace could it not?

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[Act 16:31 NKJV]
So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household."

[Act 16:33 KJV]
And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed [their] stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
 
Jan 17, 2023
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In other words, your complaint about "tulip" not being explicitly stated in the bible, just like the term "trinity" isn't, is bogus. The real reason you believe in the triunity of God is because the trinitarian concept is often found in the bible --

just like the concepts for each letter that represents a specific doctrine in the acronym of TULIP are

We're really focused on the election part of TULIP, which I have given Scripture to debunk. No the concept isn't there. That is not God's character. And it's quite easily debunked.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
24,145
8,743
113
g an event from the past or is it describing the "how to?"

One thing I remember to ask every time. Is the passage describing an event that has already taken place? Or is it describing the "how to?"

Voices and tenses can get very tricky between the two.

Acts 16:31 is the "how to."
Oh yes.
Not only that, connotations referring to a (grim or wonderful) reality YET FUTURE. In eternity.
Jesus spoke in those terms commonly.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
3,354
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why are people always condemning and telling each other they are wrong?
The enemy tears down but we are to build.....we are not to judge because the hand is not the eye it can't say it doesn't belong to the body...Father Loves diversity, if we cannot unite with people who are like us how will we fit into The Spirit World where there are Spirits who differ from us in a myriad of ways?
we are Abrahamic so The Test is how we unite with our Bretherin. look past each other's short comings because we all have them....The Law of The Prophets
So are the tares within the Church just like the wheat that is also in the Church?
 
Jul 3, 2015
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They have rehearsed answer for every question, reminds me of.... :unsure:
You must be very talented if you are able to come up with answers that are endlessly unique and also it would speak to how you go beyond Scripture to answer. I affirm that there are definitive Scriptural answers to questions, and I think it prudent not to go beyond that.