Understanding God’s election
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rogerg said:
your dead wrong in your understanding of salvation
Kroogz said:
What must I do to be saved?
rogerg said:
There is nothing that anyone can do to save themselves. To become saved, one would have had to be elected by God unto salvation from before the foundation the world.
Acts 16:30
and after he brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
Acts 16:31
They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
At least you're honest, I will give you that. You are DEAD wrong though.
your dead wrong in your understanding of salvation
Kroogz said:
What must I do to be saved?
rogerg said:
There is nothing that anyone can do to save themselves. To become saved, one would have had to be elected by God unto salvation from before the foundation the world.
Acts 16:30
and after he brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
Acts 16:31
They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
At least you're honest, I will give you that. You are DEAD wrong though.
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If you are dying of a disease that you could never figure out a cure for?
And a doctor tells you he has a treatment that will cure you?
Would you be saving yourself if you accepted the doctor's solution?
No.... you would not be saving yourself.
The doctor would be saving you.
The same principle applies to believing in Jesus Christ!
grace and peace .........
And a doctor tells you he has a treatment that will cure you?
Would you be saving yourself if you accepted the doctor's solution?
No.... you would not be saving yourself.
The doctor would be saving you.
The same principle applies to believing in Jesus Christ!
grace and peace .........
I have no issue in reading a 16 page letter nor does Chat GPT, in the given context.
Your not using scripture alone to interpret scripture.
Your using the volumes of the, "Institutes of the Christian religion", to understand the scripture.
That's why debate rages.
Your applying an interpretation that divides Christianity which is a work of the flesh.
Your not using scripture alone to interpret scripture.
Your using the volumes of the, "Institutes of the Christian religion", to understand the scripture.
That's why debate rages.
Your applying an interpretation that divides Christianity which is a work of the flesh.
Thanks for your windy sermon.
So, by Jesus saying that "I never knew you", he's really saying that he did know from eternity that they were fake believers? But how could this be since he's saying that he never knew anything about them! Must be, right? Isn't that how you interpret Rom 8:29 that says POSITIVELY in part, "for those God foreknew...". Don't YOU interpret that as meaning that God gazed into his cosmic crystal ball and knew in eternity all those who would come to saving faith? And now you're going to take Jesus' NEGATIVE statement and turn it into a positive?
Is that what RBT taught you? If you were consistent, you'd have to say that Jesus on judgment day will be telling the false believers that he never knew anything about them.
Nice magic trick. You would have fit in very well with the sorcerers, magicians and enchanters on Pharaoh's court.
Secondly, with respect to God being pleased with souls who repent and believe, I do have thoughts on that. But it's not what you say. I had more in mind this text:
Rom 8:8
8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
ESV
After all, only those who have and live by the Spirit can please God. But in FWT, no one receives the Spirit until AFTER they repent and believe. So how is it possible that flesh lovers (lovers of pleasure, darkness, money, themselves, etc.) can possibly please God -- or for that matter, in their deplorable spiritual condition, come to saving faith and repentance all by their lonesome? The unregenerate are actually in bondage to their flesh (sinful nature), and this is precisely why God is never pleased with such people. Jesus never taught anywhere that sinners can set themselves free from their own bondage.
Finally, whatever it is that you think that God initiates, He always falls short because it's not effectual. God never actually "delivers the goods". (After all...this is precisely why you freewillers look at Jesus as only a POTENTIAL Savior, remember?) Only unregenerate sinners can do what is effectual in FWT -- even though what is effectual with the unregenerate are their enslaved wills.
So, by Jesus saying that "I never knew you", he's really saying that he did know from eternity that they were fake believers? But how could this be since he's saying that he never knew anything about them! Must be, right? Isn't that how you interpret Rom 8:29 that says POSITIVELY in part, "for those God foreknew...". Don't YOU interpret that as meaning that God gazed into his cosmic crystal ball and knew in eternity all those who would come to saving faith? And now you're going to take Jesus' NEGATIVE statement and turn it into a positive?
Is that what RBT taught you? If you were consistent, you'd have to say that Jesus on judgment day will be telling the false believers that he never knew anything about them.Nice magic trick. You would have fit in very well with the sorcerers, magicians and enchanters on Pharaoh's court.
Secondly, with respect to God being pleased with souls who repent and believe, I do have thoughts on that. But it's not what you say. I had more in mind this text:
Rom 8:8
8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
ESV
After all, only those who have and live by the Spirit can please God. But in FWT, no one receives the Spirit until AFTER they repent and believe. So how is it possible that flesh lovers (lovers of pleasure, darkness, money, themselves, etc.) can possibly please God -- or for that matter, in their deplorable spiritual condition, come to saving faith and repentance all by their lonesome? The unregenerate are actually in bondage to their flesh (sinful nature), and this is precisely why God is never pleased with such people. Jesus never taught anywhere that sinners can set themselves free from their own bondage.
Finally, whatever it is that you think that God initiates, He always falls short because it's not effectual. God never actually "delivers the goods". (After all...this is precisely why you freewillers look at Jesus as only a POTENTIAL Savior, remember?) Only unregenerate sinners can do what is effectual in FWT -- even though what is effectual with the unregenerate are their enslaved wills.
Re "So, by Jesus saying that "I never knew you", he's really saying that he did know from eternity that they were fake believers? But how could this be since he's saying that he never knew anything about them!?": The incarnate Jesus did not know everything, but post-Incarnation presumably He will regain omniscience. Not sure why you said, "Nice magic trick. You would have fit in very well with the sorcerers, magicians and enchanters on Pharaoh's court.", unless you are projecting.
Re "Secondly, with respect to God being pleased with souls who repent and believe, I do have thoughts on that. But it's not what you say. I had more in mind this text: Rom 8:8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. After all, only those who have and live by the Spirit can please God. But in FWT, no one receives the Spirit until AFTER they repent and believe. So how is it possible that flesh lovers (lovers of pleasure, darkness, money, themselves, etc.) can possibly please God?": By repenting and receiving the HS.
Re "Finally, whatever it is that you think that God initiates, He always falls short because it's not effectual.": No, humans who do not cooperate fall short or make God's salvation ineffectual for them, which is why they justly make God's justice effectual for them in hell.
Yes I deny it, if you mean chosen to Salvation, now even though the Nation was chosen/called coporarety to be a nation for the purposeof the Promised Messiah would come through, it only had a small remnant chosen actually for Salvation, hence that's why we have scriptures like Matt 20 16
16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.
Matt 22 14
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
Rom 9 6,27
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
Rom 115-7
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
So if there is an election in Israel that obtains salvation , then the rest which were blinded are not elect, which stands for the nation in general since only a remnant was elect.
16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.
Matt 22 14
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
Rom 9 6,27
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
Rom 115-7
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
So if there is an election in Israel that obtains salvation , then the rest which were blinded are not elect, which stands for the nation in general since only a remnant was elect.
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That's ridiculous - never heard of it and you don't know me so stop making those kinds of absurd accusations.
I read the Bible alone using an interlinear. lexicon, and concordance, for clarification, period. I never go outside
of the Bible to learn things spiritual- in fact, the Bible is the ONLY thing I read nowadays. Everything I post comes from it and I always include biblical citation with my posts to allow critique.
You, on the other hand, trust your soul to ChatGPT. And that is very dangerous because it can't teach you the spiritual.
Our primary and singular goal should be to seek out and find spiritual truth which alone resides in the Bible.
I read the Bible alone using an interlinear. lexicon, and concordance, for clarification, period. I never go outside
of the Bible to learn things spiritual- in fact, the Bible is the ONLY thing I read nowadays. Everything I post comes from it and I always include biblical citation with my posts to allow critique.
You, on the other hand, trust your soul to ChatGPT. And that is very dangerous because it can't teach you the spiritual.
Our primary and singular goal should be to seek out and find spiritual truth which alone resides in the Bible.
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The Bible was written by God as ONE integrated book from Genesis to The Revelation.
Correctly finding God's spiritual doctrine can therefore only be achieved by realizing this and interrogating the Bible from that perspective, while being guided by the Holy Spirit.
There is a reason why God below said, "comparing spiritual things with spiritual" and not "temporal things with temporal"
No prophecy of scripture is of any private interpretation.
[2Pe 1:20 KJV] 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
[1Co 2:13 KJV] 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
Correctly finding God's spiritual doctrine can therefore only be achieved by realizing this and interrogating the Bible from that perspective, while being guided by the Holy Spirit.
There is a reason why God below said, "comparing spiritual things with spiritual" and not "temporal things with temporal"
No prophecy of scripture is of any private interpretation.
[2Pe 1:20 KJV] 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
[1Co 2:13 KJV] 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
You stated it wrong. You should have stated it as that you're already dead. Being dead, can you assist with your treatment or
or in bringing yourself back to life? Nope, you are completely and utterly helpless in that condition, totally dependent upon God to
give life to you - a truly dead person can't help the doctor.
[Col 2:13 KJV] 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
[Eph 2:1 KJV] 1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;
or in bringing yourself back to life? Nope, you are completely and utterly helpless in that condition, totally dependent upon God to
give life to you - a truly dead person can't help the doctor.
[Col 2:13 KJV] 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
[Eph 2:1 KJV] 1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;
No, I'm not dead wrong. Read post 5,716. It demonstrates until born again we are spiritually dead in sin. Being dead, it would be impossible to give ourselves life. We are completely dependent upon God for that - it is totally outside of our control and therefore nothing we can do to assist Him with it. The dead can't give themselves life.
Regarding Acts 16:30- 31, the question you should ask is how does one come to believe? Is it a work of man or of God?
Can a dead man give himself belief?
[Jhn 6:29 KJV] 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
I'll include the verses from that post below. Can you see in them that before being born-again they (we) are spiritually dead?
That is why God calls it being born-again - because He makes us spiritually alive - born again - being given spiritual life - from/by salvation, after having been spiritually dead.
It is important to notice in the below verses, that it was God who made them alive - they contributed nothing to the process.
They were completely dead, God intervened, and He made them alive. It is all by God, nothing by man. If you can find
something those dead contributed to it while dead, please let me know and post it.
[Col 2:13 KJV] 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
[Eph 2:1 KJV] 1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Regarding Acts 16:30- 31, the question you should ask is how does one come to believe? Is it a work of man or of God?
Can a dead man give himself belief?
[Jhn 6:29 KJV] 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
I'll include the verses from that post below. Can you see in them that before being born-again they (we) are spiritually dead?
That is why God calls it being born-again - because He makes us spiritually alive - born again - being given spiritual life - from/by salvation, after having been spiritually dead.
It is important to notice in the below verses, that it was God who made them alive - they contributed nothing to the process.
They were completely dead, God intervened, and He made them alive. It is all by God, nothing by man. If you can find
something those dead contributed to it while dead, please let me know and post it.
[Col 2:13 KJV] 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
[Eph 2:1 KJV] 1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;