Understanding God’s election

[Cameron143]

That is what I had just said/posted: The only options available to humanity regarding salvation are to seek God (MT 7:7) or not (RM 3:11)--so now what? (BTW, I just added that insight to my website; thanks again for helping with that ongoing project.)

If you agree that fallen man is limited in His choices, how then does he possess freewill?

 

[GWH]

You know, your repeated perversions of what I have actually said are getting a bit tiring. I will try to reason with you one more time, and then, as is the norm, you can ignore whatever I actually say while continuing to cling to your erroneous views.

First of all, I have repeatedly stated not only what God foreknows, but who he foreknows. In other words, if he foreknows that certain people (the who) will embrace the gospel of Christ (the what), then he foreknows both the who and the what. I mean, I could say what I just said to a 10 year old, and they would understand it.

I leave out Ephesians 1:4? What a joke, or should I say what an outright lie? I have referenced Ephesians 1:4 multiple times, and it is the death knell of your erroneous beliefs, so why would I even consider leaving it out of the conversation? Let's read it, one last time, in context.

Eph 1:1
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
Eph 1:2
Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
Eph 1:3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph 1:4
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Who did the choosing in verse 4? According to verse 3, God the Father did the choosing.

Who is the us who were chosen by God the Father in verse 4? According to verse 1, the us were Paul, the saints which were at Ephesus, and the faithful in Christ Jesus.

In what way were they chosen in verse 4? They were chosen IN HIM or IN CHRIST.

When were they chosen IN HIM? They were chosen IN HIM before the foundation of the world.

Now, if you have any sense whatsoever, then you should ask yourself the following question:

When did Paul, the saints which were at Ephesus, and the faithful in Christ Jesus find themselves IN HIM or IN CHRIST?

Were any of them IN HIM before the foundation of the world? No, they were not. For example, elsewhere, Paul said:

Rom 16:7
Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

If Paul was somehow IN HIM or IN CHRIST before the foundation of the world, then how in the world could Andronicus and Junia have been IN CHRIST BEFORE HIM? Paul, like everybody else who has ever been found to be IN HIM or IN CHRIST, got in by believing the gospel of salvation, and that did not occur before the foundation of the world.

Eph 1:13
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Paul, the saints which were at Ephesus, and the faithful in Christ Jesus all were found to be in him AFTER they believed the gospel of their salvation, and not before the foundation of the world.

My point?

That Christ was chosen before the foundation of the world as God's elected means of salvation, and those who are ultimately found to be IN HIM through belief in the gospel of salvation were chosen IN HIM before the foundation of the world. You are leaving out the IN HIM part.

Going back to my Noah's Ark analogy, the ark was God's chosen means of salvation. God strove with everybody by his Spirit back in that day, and Noah was a preacher of righteousness. In other words, unless God is some sadistic monster who was waving something before the people which they could never embrace, he wanted none to perish, but all to repent unto salvation. God, in his foreknowledge, knew who would ultimately board the ark, or who would ultimately be found IN THE ARK, but everyone was invited. The same principle applies with Christ. Again, Christ is God's chosen means of salvation from sin. God, in his foreknowledge, knows who will be found IN HIM or IN CHRIST, but everybody is invited to enter in. Not according to Calvin's false "god" who you continually defend. If I have not made this clear enough already, then I will say it one last time.

I REPUDIATE Calvin's false "god" with every fiber of my being.

You also obviously do not know what the grace of God is all about. In other words, as with a marriage proposal, it is something which needs to be received or accepted. Of course, according to Calvin's false "god," it is allegedly "irresistible," and I have already provided enough portions of scripture to refute that nonsense, so I will not repeat myself now.

Anyhow, you obviously have shut your ears to the truth in regard to this matter, so I am not going to waste another second trying to somehow bore your ears open.

Oh, wait. I almost forgot the best part. I, according to you, am presenting things which conflict with the idea that God is no respecter of persons?

LOL!!!

No, that would be Calvin and his misguided followers/supporters who insist that God chose some people, before the foundation of the world, and without any say of their own in the matter, to be either eternally saved or eternally damned. if that is your "god," then...

I have already provided more than enough sound, biblical truth here, so I will now leave this conversation. Bye.

Re Cameron saying "You say God chooses based on those who will embrace the gospel. This is in conflict with the idea that salvation is of grace...not of yourself. It also conflicts with the idea that God is not a respecter of persons. Evidently, he does consider someone's actions."

I suspect Cameron enjoys trolling, because even an AI meme would be cognizant of the numerous times we have explained that saving faith is merely the non-meritorious means of accepting God's work/grace of salvation in Christ, but with Cam it somehow (free) will not sink in and he repeats the same thing as though he were brainwashed rather than free to think/reason.

 

[GWH]

If you agree that fallen man is limited in His choices, how then does he possess freewill?

Because he is free to choose one of those morally opposite choices, duh! Freedom to play dumb or learn a truth that affirms BOTH God's omnipotence AND his omnilove. Other none-salvific options are beside the point in both DT 30:19 and ACTS 28:26-27.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

It's foolishness because they cannot comprehend it. They don't believe it because it makes no sense. They have no understanding.

Many atheists think they do understand but they don't. They might even brag about how well they know the Bible.

But that is all only head knowledge after all. It is not accompanied by understanding.

It’s because they reject its truth . Easy to reject somethkng you don’t believe as foolishness

 

[Cameron143]

You know, your repeated perversions of what I have actually said are getting a bit tiring. I will try to reason with you one more time, and then, as is the norm, you can ignore whatever I actually say while continuing to cling to your erroneous views.

First of all, I have repeatedly stated not only what God foreknows, but who he foreknows. In other words, if he foreknows that certain people (the who) will embrace the gospel of Christ (the what), then he foreknows both the who and the what. I mean, I could say what I just said to a 10 year old, and they would understand it.

I leave out Ephesians 1:4? What a joke, or should I say what an outright lie? I have referenced Ephesians 1:4 multiple times, and it is the death knell of your erroneous beliefs, so why would I even consider leaving it out of the conversation? Let's read it, one last time, in context.

Eph 1:1
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
Eph 1:2
Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
Eph 1:3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph 1:4
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Who did the choosing in verse 4? According to verse 3, God the Father did the choosing.

Who is the us who were chosen by God the Father in verse 4? According to verse 1, the us were Paul, the saints which were at Ephesus, and the faithful in Christ Jesus.

In what way were they chosen in verse 4? They were chosen IN HIM or IN CHRIST.

When were they chosen IN HIM? They were chosen IN HIM before the foundation of the world.

Now, if you have any sense whatsoever, then you should ask yourself the following question:

When did Paul, the saints which were at Ephesus, and the faithful in Christ Jesus find themselves IN HIM or IN CHRIST?

Were any of them IN HIM before the foundation of the world? No, they were not. For example, elsewhere, Paul said:

Rom 16:7
Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

If Paul was somehow IN HIM or IN CHRIST before the foundation of the world, then how in the world could Andronicus and Junia have been IN CHRIST BEFORE HIM? Paul, like everybody else who has ever been found to be IN HIM or IN CHRIST, got in by believing the gospel of salvation, and that did not occur before the foundation of the world.

Eph 1:13
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Paul, the saints which were at Ephesus, and the faithful in Christ Jesus all were found to be in him AFTER they believed the gospel of their salvation, and not before the foundation of the world.

My point?

That Christ was chosen before the foundation of the world as God's elected means of salvation, and those who are ultimately found to be IN HIM through belief in the gospel of salvation were chosen IN HIM before the foundation of the world. You are leaving out the IN HIM part.

Going back to my Noah's Ark analogy, the ark was God's chosen means of salvation. God strove with everybody by his Spirit back in that day, and Noah was a preacher of righteousness. In other words, unless God is some sadistic monster who was waving something before the people which they could never embrace, he wanted none to perish, but all to repent unto salvation. God, in his foreknowledge, knew who would ultimately board the ark, or who would ultimately be found IN THE ARK, but everyone was invited. The same principle applies with Christ. Again, Christ is God's chosen means of salvation from sin. God, in his foreknowledge, knows who will be found IN HIM or IN CHRIST, but everybody is invited to enter in. Not according to Calvin's false "god" who you continually defend. If I have not made this clear enough already, then I will say it one last time.

I REPUDIATE Calvin's false "god" with every fiber of my being.

You also obviously do not know what the grace of God is all about. In other words, as with a marriage proposal, it is something which needs to be received or accepted. Of course, according to Calvin's false "god," it is allegedly "irresistible," and I have already provided enough portions of scripture to refute that nonsense, so I will not repeat myself now.

Anyhow, you obviously have shut your ears to the truth in regard to this matter, so I am not going to waste another second trying to somehow bore your ears open.

Oh, wait. I almost forgot the best part. I, according to you, am presenting things which conflict with the idea that God is no respecter of persons?

LOL!!!

No, that would be Calvin and his misguided followers/supporters who insist that God chose some people, before the foundation of the world, and without any say of their own in the matter, to be either eternally saved or eternally damned. if that is your "god," then...

I have already provided more than enough sound, biblical truth here, so I will now leave this conversation. Bye.

My apologies if you feel I have misrepresented you. That is never my aim.
I asked you about election and selection and about Isaac. There was a reason. If God doesn't intervene, is Isaac ever born?

The answer is...no. While I believe all births are miraculous in that God is the creator of life, not all are supernatural in the sense that they occur outside of the normal means God employs. Abraham and Sarah were beyond physically having a baby. The only reason Isaac is born is because he is a child of promise. This is election. God doesn't begin with a pool of possibilities, and select some from the group. God creates a group and then brings them forth...this is what Ephesians 1:4 is teaching. Before creation, God not only chose Jesus as His preeminent servant, but He also chose a people who would be His. Jesus is the firstborn among many brethren. His sheep are supernaturally born again as Isaac was supernaturally born, will hear His voice and follow Him.
All this fits in with God's original goal of filling the earth with knowledge of His glory. I'll tie it all together if you so desire.
Again, my apologies for wording my previous response in a way to cause offense.

 

[Cameron143]

Because he is free to choose one of those morally opposite choices, duh! Freedom to play dumb or learn a truth that affirms BOTH God's omnipotence AND his omnilove. Other none-salvific options are beside the point in both DT 30:19 and ACTS 28:26-27.

But he's not free to do so. Read Ephesians 2:1-3. Man is dead, being dominated and doomed. It isn't until verse 4 that we find what frees him...But God...
Until verse 4 occurs, only 1 choice can be made.

 

[Cameron143]

Re Cameron saying "You say God chooses based on those who will embrace the gospel. This is in conflict with the idea that salvation is of grace...not of yourself. It also conflicts with the idea that God is not a respecter of persons. Evidently, he does consider someone's actions."

I suspect Cameron enjoys trolling, because even an AI meme would be cognizant of the numerous times we have explained that saving faith is merely the non-meritorious means of accepting God's work/grace of salvation in Christ, but with Cam it somehow (free) will not sink in and he repeats the same thing as though he were brainwashed rather than free to think/reason.

If you would answer the questions and follow the reasoning, you would know that I'm not trolling. I believe everything I post. You may not understand my point or disagree with it, but I have done my best to understand other points of view, ask questions to more fully understand, and apologized to those who take offense. You would be hard pressed to find someone who has done the same.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Seems like so many verses calling people to believe.

Interesting I am looking for that verse where is states .....

"you cannot believe, first I (God) have to change you from the inside, this includes regeneration and other such internal operations so you can believe."

Not finding it anywhere. Good thing, I knew it wasn't true.

I think it likely comes from interpreting verses like this

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and not acknowledging this

“For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? ( God sent them to preach salvation to man ) as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:13-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

1 plus 1 Gods gift of salvation through faith and by grace to us is the gospel he then sent out freely to any and all

And so to say “ faith comes from God not from ourselves is true “ but what’s being missed is he already offered everyone the gift in his word

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

i think the flaw is the thought that the gospel is not sufficient or capable of saving all sinners. Or tbat there’s another secret ring that needs to happen to force some to believe and others make it impossible to believe .

abut then when someone brings that up it’s said that they are being misrepresented

honestly I’ve lost sight of the argument . When we have two sides each plucking scriotire and fighting against the other scripture things get lost

faith does come from God but he’s already given it to anyone that believes the gospel . I’m in agreement with you . There’s no secret unwritten thing that God does for some and not for others , but rather he accomplished the gospel for all mankind and whoever believes shall be saved , whoever doesn’t believe the gospel shall be damned

 

[Pilgrimshope]

It's foolishness because they cannot comprehend it. They don't believe it because it makes no sense. They have no understanding.

Many atheists think they do understand but they don't. They might even brag about how well they know the Bible.

But that is all only head knowledge after all. It is not accompanied by understanding.

“and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

( God gave it they refused to receive it )


And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: that they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.”( because t he didn’t believe not because God didn’t make then capable )
‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭2:10-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We have to believe

 

[cv5]

Re Cameron saying "You say God chooses based on those who will embrace the gospel. This is in conflict with the idea that salvation is of grace...not of yourself. It also conflicts with the idea that God is not a respecter of persons. Evidently, he does consider someone's actions."

I suspect Cameron enjoys trolling, because even an AI meme would be cognizant of the numerous times we have explained that saving faith is merely the non-meritorious means of accepting God's work/grace of salvation in Christ, but with Cam it somehow (free) will not sink in and he repeats the same thing as though he were brainwashed rather than free to think/reason.

Yup. Thats about the size of it.
A mindless doom-loop of incoherent irrationality.

Those who are trapped in the Calvinite dungeon are pacing around in circles in an 8 X 8 cell.
What a hopeless nightmare. Glad it ain't me man.

 

[cv5]

“and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

( God gave it they refused to receive it )


And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: that they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.”( because t he didn’t believe not because God didn’t make then capable )
‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭2:10-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We have to believe

I already posted the Greek that proves the intended meaning of those passages beyond any refutation.

But the Calvinite doom-loopers waaaaaay down in the dungeon are just too
far gone to acknowledge the truth of the matter.

Methinks they are looking for cell-mates. Count me out.

 

[cv5]

When we have two sides

Oh I don't think so. There is only ONE side.
Because one side is 100% right and the other is 0% right.

 

[GWH]

If you would answer the questions and follow the reasoning, you would know that I'm not trolling. I believe everything I post. You may not understand my point or disagree with it, but I have done my best to understand other points of view, ask questions to more fully understand, and apologized to those who take offense. You would be hard pressed to find someone who has done the same.

Well, keep on trying is all I can say, repeating "omnilove" all day long, since you have the omnipotence part down pat.
I added the following learning/insights to my website just now, partly helped by our discussions:

Paul taught the importance of continuing to learn God's Word (LGW) in 2TM 3:14-17, saying "Continue in what you have learned and have been convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, and how from infancy you have know the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."

Several things in this pericope are worth noting:

1. "Continue" speaks of perseverance.
2. "Convinced" speaks of confident faith rather than of absolute certainty.
3. "Learning GW from infancy" refers to God's "plan A" for parenting.
4. "Able" speaks of humanity having volition or faith to seek--or not (MT 7:7, RM 3:11).
5. "All Scripture is God-breathed and useful..." refers to the reason God inspired the OT and NT canons.
6. "Servant of God" means "muslim".
7. "Equipped" refers to having spiritual armor by which to defeat the devil's schemes (EPH 6:10-18).
8. "Teaching" implies LGW as the main method of becoming mature or fully equipped, which means having humility = teachability.

Paul explains how LGW may be accomplished in EPH 4:11-13: "Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ."

 

[HeIsHere]

You know, your repeated perversions of what I have actually said are getting a bit tiring. I will try to reason with you one more time, and then, as is the norm, you can ignore whatever I actually say while continuing to cling to your erroneous views.

Thank you and thank you!!

God Bless you!

 

[HeIsHere]

Oh I don't think so. There is only ONE side.
Because one side is 100% right and the other is 0% right.

Amen this is the "Good News" it is GOD's plan of salvation we are talking about!
There is no grey here!

 

[Jimbone]

is anyone here actually a calvinist? not just being accused of one but actually a calvinist I ask because it seems to be a bad thing in peoples eyes? I don't know much about them so I am not sure why it is so bad what are their core beleifs?

THIS Blain, this. No one here says they're a Calvinist, no one here is teaching the 5 points, no one but those on the attack are quoting Calvin. This is the madness of it all. THEY tell you what you are and believe. No matter how many times you say right to them "I am not a Calvinist", they will continue to call you one in the reply, then they will go on to tell you all about the heretical beliefs you hold, then go on to destroy those belief. It makes no difference at all to them that you say you don't hold that belief, you've never held that belief, and you've never even met a person that teaches this belief. Again, this doesn't stop them from ignoring you and debunking that belief in the reply to you saying these things. It is insane and I'm not going to even try to discuss these things in good faith with them anymore. It's impossible to have any kind of conversation with them because they do not listen or respond to anything you say.

 

[HeIsHere]

“and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

( God gave it they refused to receive it )


And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: that they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.”( because t he didn’t believe not because God didn’t make then capable )
‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭2:10-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We have to believe

Now you see why this thread it the way it is we are preserving the Gospel and then we have those that pretend to be in agreement and return back to their original erroneous doctrines!

 

[HeIsHere]

I REPUDIATE Calvin's false "god" with every fiber of my being.

🥳🥳🥳🥳🥳

 

[Mem]

I'm differentiate psuedo-Calvinist who deny that they are actually Calvinist, from the real Calvinists, please use the term Nilcavist to help mitigate the confusion. Thank you.

 

[Magenta]

“and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

( God gave it they refused to receive it )

And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: that they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.”( because t he didn’t believe not because God didn’t make then capable )
‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭2:10-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We have to believe

I can't remember if I asked you before, I know I have put the question out a number of times:

How many times did you hear the gospel before you believed it?

Yeah, I doubt very many if any hears it once and believes.

Hears it the way you say all do, with just their ears.

So when you heard the gospel and did not believe it...

Did God then God give you a powerful delusion so that you believe the lie?

How many times does one reject the Truth before that happens?

I am not sure what you are trying to say, exactly.

We have to believe? Who has denied that?