Tongues???

VCO · Dec 17, 2016

VCO,

If the folks at Master's Seminary had resurrected Kathryn Kuhlman to interview her in the 1980's, that really would have been something.

VCO: "I told you it was the early 70's. Your problems with memory ARE COMING when you get older, and I guarantee,
you will not like it. Yes, I was another victim of the 5 min. edit rule."

It's ironic that you post verses about testing the spirit, but just want to reject certain spiritual experiences out of hand without testing them Biblically. Then you quote a verse about walking by faith and not by sight, but a lot of your arguments are based on what you see or don't see, rather than what the scriptures teach on the subject.

I've never seen anyone raised from the dead, but I believe God can do it. It is within His power and I have no right to say He won't. I believe He can do the Lazarus type of resurrection, and that the saints will be resurrected at the end of the age. I've never seen a resurrection from the dead. My wife may have when the bus she was in hit a man, she went out and prayed for him, and he started breathing again. That was before I met her. I spoke with a preacher from Papua once who said he'd been raised from the dead. I've never seen it myself. I'm not about to call someone a liar when the Bible establishes the fact that God raises the dead.

SO DO WE, believe GOD did it through the Apostles, as a sign gift to convince a remnant of JEWS that the N.T. was of GOD. And just so you KNOW, raising people from the DEAD was part of the GENUINE Gift of Healing.

plainguy · Dec 17, 2016

presidente said:

"That which is part will be done way. So I believe partial knowledge will be replaced with something more complete."

I believe partial knowledge was replaced with something complete/perfect/mature .. the completed canon (bible). The gifts that Paul spoke of ceasing served the purpose of their temporal nature .. that being for the building up of the early church in the knowledge and unity of Christ. Paul was chastising the Corinthians of that era for their childish and immature (lack of) understanding and usage of God's gift.

"We have incomplete knowledge. Paul had incomplete knowledge. Even with the Bible, we have incomplete knowledge. That is why we grow in knowledge during this lifetime."

How do we grow in knowledge today ? By speaking a heavenly prayer language that we ourselves don't understand ? What is it's purpose if it only serves to make us feel edified .. with no understanding ? What did Paul say he'd rather do ? Every word in scripture has a purpose according to God's plan and timing. The purpose of tongues ceased in the apostolic era to whom they served .. the unbelieving Jews. No new prophets today. No new apostles either (see Rev. 21:14). There's room for only 12 names on the 12 foundations of God's heavenly city.

I'm simply trying to say what Paul himself said. Prophecy, tongues and (word of) knowledge .. these 3 gifts will fade and pass away while faith, hope and love will remain .. meaning they will remain when the previous 3 haven't. But love being the greatest of these is spoken of as everlasting (obviously). None of the others were. I've already stated earlier why I don't believe that faith and hope will be necessary in eternity. Both will have been realized and rewarded.

VCO · Dec 17, 2016

Not OF GOD, but of GREED FOR MONEY:

[video=youtube;AYxeTjrckl0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYxeTjrckl0[/video]

And what ever happened Peter Popoff, ANOTHER FALSE PREACHER connected to the Charimatic Movement:

He is one of the False Charismatic Preachers who were pushing the WORD of Knowledge SCAM along with their FALSE HEALING MIRACLES a few decades ago? Peter Popoff was caught on TV with very small FM receiver while his wife wondered though the audience, just pretending to be another person who was attending the Rival Meeting, talking to people, asking why they came, and Mrs. Popoff of was wearing a hidden miniature microphone.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNl52deOZro

samuel23 · Dec 17, 2016

Presidente, I have studied Kuhlman for years and am convinced that she was operating under a powerful spirit not of God that she mistook for the Holy Spirit,very sad. I tend to believe that when someone tells me something it is the truth(unless clear evidence otherwise) because I tell the truth, so when I came into the charismatic movement I accepted all the "stories" of healings and miracles. I found the stories were usually someone who told someone who told someone...and it usually ends with nothing. I also found that charismatics accept parts of the bible they like and ignore the parts they don't like. Why do the Pentecostals ignore the teaching from God through Paul that in an assembly a woman was not to have authority over a man? That is typical of charismatics and Pentecostals. Mixed with all the fake there are some Christians who do receive from God because the gifts are still here. I can think of three times I have been healed by God, two because I prayed by myself and one when another person prayed for me. I believe in healing and the gifts of the Spirit, however I do not believe the Pentecostal movement as a whole is of God.

HisHolly · Dec 17, 2016

She did seem sweet though. As if everyone was darling to her.. but .. I'll just stop there

samuel23 said:

Presidente, I have studied Kuhlman for years and am convinced that she was operating under a powerful spirit not of God that she mistook for the Holy Spirit,very sad. I tend to believe that when someone tells me something it is the truth(unless clear evidence otherwise) because I tell the truth, so when I came into the charismatic movement I accepted all the "stories" of healings and miracles. I found the stories were usually someone who told someone who told someone...and it usually ends with nothing. I also found that charismatics accept parts of the bible they like and ignore the parts they don't like. Why do the Pentecostals ignore the teaching from God through Paul that in an assembly a woman was not to have authority over a man? That is typical of charismatics and Pentecostals. Mixed with all the fake there are some Christians who do receive from God because the gifts are still here. I can think of three times I have been healed by God, two because I prayed by myself and one when another person prayed for me. I believe in healing and the gifts of the Spirit, however I do not believe the Pentecostal movement as a whole is of God.

samuel23 · Dec 17, 2016

<div>Presidente, I have studied Kuhlman for years and am convinced that she was operating under a powerful spirit not of God that she mistook for the Holy Spirit,very sad.  I tend to believe that when someone tells me something it is the truth(unless clear evidence otherwise) because I tell the truth, so when I came into the charismatic movement I accepted all the "stories" of healings and miracles. I found the stories were usually someone who told someone who told someone...and it usually ends with nothing.   I also found that charismatics accept parts of the bible they like and ignore the parts they don't like. Why do the Pentecostals ignore the teaching from God through Paul that in an assembly a woman was not to have authority over a man? That is typical of charismatics and Pentecostals. Mixed with all the fake there are some Christians who do receive from God because the gifts are still here. I can think of three times I have been healed by God, two because I prayed by myself and one when another person prayed for me.  I believe in healing and the gifts of the Spirit, however I do not believe the Pentecostal movement as a whole is of God.</div>

presidente · Dec 17, 2016

VCO,

Go post on a Pentecostal forum and ask if they think Poppoff is legit. Ask about Bob Tilton while you are at it. Popoff hawks miracle water and various weird products in exchange for offerings of specific amounts.

If we believe the Bible, we would expect their to be fakes and con artists. But we would also expect their to be genuine gifts of the Spirit at work as well.

notuptome · Dec 17, 2016

presidente said:

Of course there are genuine gifts because the Holy Spirit is genuine. The problem is the movement to super spiritualize religion and use false gifts to worship the religion over the Creator.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

zone · Dec 17, 2016

[video=youtube;6unwFKC3NIw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6unwFKC3NIw[/video]

Message for Body through Tongues & Interpretation

Published on Feb 21, 2016

Apostle Edmonds and Prophet Kinslow release message for Body of Christ through tongues & interpretation. Freedom 4 Nations Awakening Conference 2016 ...

....

the message through tongues comes on heavy first 20 seconds.
interpretation follows.
....

is this real, anyone?
Apostle Edmonds and Prophet Kinslow are presumably "real" apostle and real prophet.

VCO · Dec 17, 2016

samuel23 said:

Presidente, I have studied Kuhlman for years and am convinced that she was operating under a powerful spirit not of God that she mistook for the Holy Spirit,very sad. I tend to believe that when someone tells me something it is the truth(unless clear evidence otherwise) because I tell the truth, so when I came into the charismatic movement I accepted all the "stories" of healings and miracles. I found the stories were usually someone who told someone who told someone...and it usually ends with nothing. I also found that charismatics accept parts of the bible they like and ignore the parts they don't like. Why do the Pentecostals ignore the teaching from God through Paul that in an assembly a woman was not to have authority over a man? That is typical of charismatics and Pentecostals. Mixed with all the fake there are some Christians who do receive from God because the gifts are still here. I can think of three times I have been healed by God, two because I prayed by myself and one when another person prayed for me. I believe in healing and the gifts of the Spirit, however I do not believe the Pentecostal movement as a whole is of God.

I agree they DO PICK AND CHOOSE which verses they want to believe in, in fact they accused or questioned if I had ever read Chapter 14 of 1 Corinthians, when that is the very chapter where women were commanded to keep silent in the Churches.

popeye · Dec 17, 2016

presidente said:

Then we would also have to conclude that all Baptist pastors are drunks since many of them will drink all your beer on a fishing trip.

presidente · Dec 17, 2016

plainguy said:

There are some problems with that:
1. That interpretation does not fit the context.
2. It contradicts other scripture in the book, I Corinthians 1:7 "So that ye come behind in no spiritual gift, waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."
3. There are better interpretations that fit with the flow of argument in the book, e.g. I Cor. 1:7 above, the descriptions of the state of the believer in the resurrection, the end telos where Christ delivers up the kingdom to God.
4. This is a really late interpretation. The first I've seen of it is 1700. Why would Christians who actually spoke Greek from the period not believe in your interpretation if it were right? Why did second century Christians believe in prophesying instead?

Take a look at this passage from I Corinthians 13.

10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

Look at verse 11. Paul talks about himself. He compares his own speech, understanding, and thinking before the coming of the perfect to that of a child. After the coming of the perfect, he compares to becoming a man. How would the completion of the canon make Paul grow up in his speech or understanding?

But lets say it doesn't mean what it says, and the man here is really you. So, Paul receives childish understanding of the mysteries of God, writes them down in the Bible, and you have them now. And because you have his child-like understanding written down, your understanding become's like a man. That must mean you understand the mystery of Christ much greater than Paul did. It puts you in a superior position to the authors of scripture.

Does this fit with your Christian experience? I suspect it does not. I suspect that, like many of us, you could read something Paul wrote for years, but still get insight of spiritual truths you hadn't picked up on years later while reading his writings. You see it, and then you realize from reading that Paul understood this truth and it shows up in his other epistles. That's happened to me.

The fact that Christians disagree over this passage is evidence against your viewpoint as well, since if our knowledge were complete, we would agree on the correct interpretation of the passage.

I would agree with that. I am not arguing that we should use spiritual gifts like the Corinthians were probably doing before Paul wrote to them. I believe we should accept and follow the doctrine taught in I Corinthians 14. That would include following Biblical teachings for order.

Why would you believe in growing in knowledge at all if you think your knowledge is complete?

I don't have any reason to think that speaking in tongues increases ones knowledge (you called it a 'heavenly' prayer language. Paul doesn't.). If it was interpreted, the interpretation might. Paul says he who speaks in tongues edifies himself. Based on the parallelisms with the other verses, we see that this is a good thing, but inferior to edifying others. Speaking in tongues can edify the speaker, but to edify others, it has to be done with 'the understanding.' Paul never says tongues makes someone 'feel edified.' There is no reference to feelings in relation to speaking in tongues.

First of all, there are still plenty of unbelieving Jews around today, if you know where to look, so that's not an argument for the gift of tongues ceasing at all.

Do you hold to that convoluted interpretation of the Isaiah 28 quote in I Corinthians 14? You know, the interpretation that Paul does not make or explain in the passage? The Isaiah 28 prophecy was fulfilled in the short-term long before Paul during the Assyrian captivity. But Paul sees a prophetic application in his own day. There are many examples of dual fulfillment verses. Old Testament fulfilled prophecies can be a type of something that happens later.

In this case, Paul sees a fulfillment of a verse about people not hearing God when they hear him speak through men of other tongues and other lips in the reaction of unbelievers and uninstructed individuals to speaking in tongues. Paul gives a scenario, an unbeliever or uninstructed man comes into the assembly. Paul does not specify that he had to be a Jew. He hears speaking in tongues and responds saying 'ye are mad', just like we read in the passage, 'and yet for all that, they will not hear Me.' This serves as a sign against them.

If responding to speaking in tongues like that is typical of unbelievers and the uninstructed, why do so many posters on Christian internet forums seem to respond in much the same way?

Hahaha. Wow. What I can say to that last part is that you need to read your Bible. There were 12 apostles of the Lamb whose names were on the vision of the foundations of the city. But there are more than 12 apostles in scripture. Paul was also an apostle after all, and he clearly did not include himself in the 12 according to I Corinthians 15, since he said that Jesus appeared to the Twelve before appearing to him. Judas was dead. From Acts 1, we know that Matthias was also a witness of the resurrection. Paul did not fit Peter's requirement to replace Judas' either listed in Acts 1, since he was not traveling with the 12 from the time of John the Baptist.

Paul doesn't get called an 'apostle' in Acts until Acts 14. He and Barnabas together are referred to as 'apostles' in Acts 14:4 and 14:14. Paul mentions Barnabas and himself together while defending his apostleship and his right to live of the Gospel at the beginning of I Corinthians 9. He seems to be implying Barnabas' apostleship, and this is more directly stated in Acts. He refers to himself and Apollos as 'apostles' earlier in the chapter. Paul also writes of apostles given after the ascension.

Your adding ideas to the text. Paul describes the limitations of tongues, prophecies, and knowledge. And you read into that the idea that the gifts of tongues, prophecy, and knowledge would cease. In the passage, the imperfect ceases. Wherever there is knowledge, it passes away. But knowledge doesn't cease to exist as a gift or otherwise. After the perfect comes, Paul knows fully as he is known. Paul doesn't say the gift of prophecy passes away either. Prophecy before the perfect comes is imperfect. That which is in part shall be done away. So the same type of imperfect prophecy and understanding won't be here after the perfect comes. If knowledge is made more complete, there may be prophesying-- speaking as moved by the Spirit-- but in a more complete way.

You set the time frame for the coming of the perfect to something not referred to or hinted at in I Corinthians, the completion of the canon. There is nothing in the contexts that hints at that. it doesn't fit Paul's comments about the coming of the perfect, since it will make his understanding like an adult's.

presidente · Dec 17, 2016

popeye said:

Do you fish with American Baptists or Southern, or some other type?

popeye · Dec 17, 2016

samuel23 said:

Presidente, I have studied Kuhlman for years and am convinced that she was operating under a powerful spirit not of God that she mistook for the Holy Spirit,very sad. I tend to believe that when someone tells me something it is the truth(unless clear evidence otherwise) because I tell the truth, so when I came into the charismatic movement I accepted all the "stories" of healings and miracles. I found the stories were usually someone who told someone who told someone...and it usually ends with nothing. I also found that charismatics accept parts of the bible they like and ignore the parts they don't like. Why do the Pentecostals ignore the teaching from God through Paul that in an assembly a woman was not to have authority over a man? That is typical of charismatics and Pentecostals. Mixed with all the fake there are some Christians who do receive from God because the gifts are still here. I can think of three times I have been healed by God, two because I prayed by myself and one when another person prayed for me. I believe in healing and the gifts of the Spirit, however I do not believe the Pentecostal movement as a whole is of God.

No,she was a true woman of God.

Under your watchful eye,had you lived alongside king David,you would have naturally followed Absalom,as David was,in your microscope,a fake.

popeye · Dec 17, 2016

presidente said:

I don't fish at all. Ask around. But all I need is one example,as you have demonstrated.
If that one fails to make a point,lets use Westborough Baptist.

We can also conclude all Baptists hate the veterans.

My point is ,stereotypes and broad brushing work only in certain circles.

I consider myself charasmatic,therefore will demand you wear the same mantle you are throwing around.

VCO · Dec 17, 2016

presidente said:

The real problem is most of your people cannot tell the between the genuine gifts of the spirit, and the counterfeit gifts of the spirit. Popoff, is still taking in an average of $23,000,000.00 per year. It appears that almost NONE of the Charismatics can tell the difference between a real minister of GOD, and a religious con-artist.

Like what I quoted Dave Hunt saying before: "I fear that if a witch doctor came into your church dressed in a suit and tie, toting a Bible, and speaking in tongues, most of you would listen to him all day long." That is because you trust your eyes and ears more than you trust what the Bible actually says. It does not take much to Biblically check them out. "Do they do this the SAME way the Apostles did?"

Malachi 3:6 (NIV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] "I the LORD do not change.
So you, O descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed.

But I do not on a regular basis see anyone really checking these people out. I suspect that is out of fear, they will end up upsetting their own apple cart.

zone · Dec 17, 2016

"...Actually, Pentecostalism began in the nineteenth century. Two groups must be given credit here for the early occurrences, namely the Mormons of Joseph Smith and the Shakers. It will be remembered by the students of Mormonism that Joseph Smith believed in the gift of tongues along with visions, revelations, etc. To him tongues would accompany the reception of the Holy Spirit and would open the door for visionary understandings and revelations. After all, this is the way the Book of Mormon had come to him. Other historians of this movement, such as J. H. Kennedy and J. W. Gunnison, relate the unbelievable and weird episodes when this gift was claimed to have been enjoyed with the interpretations that followed. At the very best, one can only look upon this as the unbiblical braying of wide-eyed and hot-minded men. Something similar took place among the Shakers, especially with its founder, “Mother” Ann Lee who claimed that she could discourse in seventy-two languages. The gift of tongues was also accompanied by times of unspeakable joy and dancing during which many of the hymns of this movement were composed, although made up of unintelligible and unheard of words.

Pentecostalism itself cannot be dated much earlier than 1900. Some did live before that time who claimed “Pentecostal Holiness,” and “Pentecostal Fullness,” while others engaged in “Tarrying and Speaking” meetings. However, very few of these things occurred before 1900....."

Church History and the Tongues Movement by George W. Dollar

VCO · Dec 17, 2016

popeye said:

Or a Nazarene Pastor who took me out in an aluminum flat bottom bass boat, out on the ocean to fish for salmon, following the big fishing trip boats. Then after the fog drifted in, and we wanted to get back to the harbor, he asked me to listen for the fog horn so I can direct him which way to turn the boat. I just started laughing, because he was depending on me, the one who is hard of hearing, to listen for the fog horn and direct him to the harbor.

stonesoffire · Dec 17, 2016

Would this be them doing the healing or the Lord working through them VCO? Because its my thought that we do nothing outside of His leading.

Otherwise, He might say...I never knew you.

Perhaps you just have a misguided understanding of the walk with Holy Spirit?

zone · Dec 17, 2016

The Truth about the Gift of Tongues

"The Truth about the Gift of Tongues" by Robin Arnaud

Tongues???

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