Tongues???

[presidente]

VCO,

If the folks at Master's Seminary had resurrected Kathryn Kuhlman to interview her in the 1980's, that really would have been something.

It's ironic that you post verses about testing the spirit, but just want to reject certain spiritual experiences out of hand without testing them Biblically. Then you quote a verse about walking by faith and not by sight, but a lot of your arguments are based on what you see or don't see, rather than what the scriptures teach on the subject.

I've never seen anyone raised from the dead, but I believe God can do it. It is within His power and I have no right to say He won't. I believe He can do the Lazarus type of resurrection, and that the saints will be resurrected at the end of the age. I've never seen a resurrection from the dead. My wife may have when the bus she was in hit a man, she went out and prayed for him, and he started breathing again. That was before I met her. I spoke with a preacher from Papua once who said he'd been raised from the dead. I've never seen it myself. I'm not about to call someone a liar when the Bible establishes the fact that God raises the dead.

 

[VCO]

This one is an hour and 13 minutes, showing how fake Faith Healers do their tricks.

[video=youtube;iuP5uOI7Xwc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuP5uOI7Xwc[/video]

 

[VCO]

VCO,

If the folks at Master's Seminary had resurrected Kathryn Kuhlman to interview her in the 1980's, that really would have been something.

It's ironic that you post verses about testing the spirit, but just want to reject certain spiritual experiences out of hand without testing them Biblically. Then you quote a verse about walking by faith and not by sight, but a lot of your arguments are based on what you see or don't see, rather than what the scriptures teach on the subject.

I've never seen anyone raised from the dead, but I believe God can do it. It is within His power and I have no right to say He won't. I believe He can do the Lazarus type of resurrection, and that the saints will be resurrected at the end of the age. I've never seen a resurrection from the dead. My wife may have when the bus she was in hit a man, she went out and prayed for him, and he started breathing again. That was before I met her. I spoke with a preacher from Papua once who said he'd been raised from the dead. I've never seen it myself. I'm not about to call someone a liar when the Bible establishes the fact that God raises the dead.

You are too late, I corrected my mistake in my post 578. But I am confidant that when you get my age, 67, your degenerative memory will be far worse than mine, because GOD is the author of poetic justice. I did test them BIBLICALLY, that is why I stopped believing in the Charismatic miracle so-called gifts. THEY DID NOT MEASURE UP TO WHAT THE APOSTLES DID.

 

[TMS]

Interpret the Scripture how you want.
But it is plan to me.

1Co 14:6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?
1Co 14:7 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?
1Co 14:8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?
1Co 14:9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.
1Co 14:10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.
1Co 14:11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.

And i'm sure God speaks a far more advanced language than us humans do so the Holy Spirit makes intercession for us.
We don't need to speak in any special way because the Holy Spirit can read our minds and intercede for us.

Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
Rom 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

By faith my prayers are heard.

 

[presidente]

VCO, I saw your correction. I was just making a joke, since the situation would have been rather ironic. I make typo's too.

As far as that video is concerned. It's long. I haven't seen it. I think I might have seen clips of it in the past. I think there are some people who are fake faith healers out there. Some are sincere but imitate some rather poor methods to verify healing. There are also millions of believers who actually believe God heals who pray for people without trying some technique to trick them, and many, many people have been healed. There may have been some fakery in the first century. There were false prophets. That doesn't prove that God didn't use the apostles to heal.

 

[TMS]

Think of Job
God doesn't always answer your pray straight away and He may say no.
Good people suffer sometimes.

 

[plainguy]

You are so sure that you have an infallible, 1,000% lock on the truth that you are willing to slander and blaspheme in direct violation of scripture? Ballsy move, Mav. And incredibly foolish.

This is PRECISELY the reason God did not perform a miracle in your mother's hospice.

I'm so tired of foolish people and their heresies.

Thank God for the ignore button.

Buhbye

I don't even know where to begin with a vulgar statement like this. Shame on you Ricky. And forgive me zone for giving it more attention than it deserves. This vile I find deeply troubling.

 

[presidente]

RickyZ,

Did God tell you that about zone's mother? You shouldn't assert things about God's doings and intentions if they are not revealed. We do not want to be false witnesses of God. Why couldn't you have faith for her mother?

 

[plainguy]

My replies in red.

Where do you get that from the passage. Please show the verses and explain. I'm going by what you bolded.

If there are tongues, they will cease. Let's say Gaius spoke in tongues. Eventually he stops. The tongues just kind of quiet down. Stephanus speaks in tongues. The tongues cease. They don't go on forever. Maybe the Corinthians, with their love of speaking in tongues, thought speaking in tongues going on a long time was a good thing, so this would be an apt description. It doesn't say, "The gift of tongues will cease." That's an idea some cessationists read into the text.

I have a hard time accepting that you yourself believe this much conjecture. If anything, the above shows the length some will (and must) go to make a scripture say and mean what they want it to.

Notice the word 'For' in verse 9. This ties together the thoughts in verse 8 to verse 9. The characteristics of verse 8 were characteristics of these gifts in Paul's present day. We can see this in verse 9, which says that we know in part and we prophesy in part. In Paul's time, in his setting, they knew in part and they prophesied in part as illustrated by the characteristics of knowledge and prophecy in verse 8. Verse 8 does not say that the gift of prophecy will cease, but rather whether there are prophecies, they will cease (or whatever word best describes that.) Many cessationists regularly read in the idea of 'gift of prophecy' into the verse.

8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part,

Look at the time words 'now' and 'then.'

8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

If Paul were making this argument in terms of the time sequencing that you suggest, wouldn't we expect the word 'then' instead of 'now' in the final verse there?

If Paul were speaking of prophecy, tongues and knowledge in the same frame reference as faith, hope and love, wouldn't we have expected him to say this as well ? .. :"where there is faith, it will cease" .. "where there is hope, it too will cease" ? Because we know that both will be no longer when we are in the Lord's presence .. both will have been fully realized. Why would Paul stop with the "ceases and fading aways" when he did ? .. and not have included faith and hope with the prophecies, tongues and knowledge ? Your only defence and/or explanation is that "he didn't mean to". I'm afraid that's not acceptable. Paul said what he said. Accept it .. or don't.


[/SIZE]

 

[Cee]

The perfect being described here is obviously love.

1 Co 13 - all about love.
1 Co 14:1 Pursue love... earnestly desire gifts...

Paul is explaining to go after love not gifts in 1 Co 12-14.

He's not saying gifts will cease when the New Testament is completed this is completely ignoring the context.

Of faith, love, and hope - the greatest is love.

That's why you follow love - not gifts.
That's why you desire prophesy in church over all the other gifts (because of love).

My replies in red.

Where do you get that from the passage. Please show the verses and explain. I'm going by what you bolded.

If there are tongues, they will cease. Let's say Gaius spoke in tongues. Eventually he stops. The tongues just kind of quiet down. Stephanus speaks in tongues. The tongues cease. They don't go on forever. Maybe the Corinthians, with their love of speaking in tongues, thought speaking in tongues going on a long time was a good thing, so this would be an apt description. It doesn't say, "The gift of tongues will cease." That's an idea some cessationists read into the text.

I have a hard time accepting that you yourself believe this much conjecture. If anything, the above shows the length some will (and must) go to make a scripture say and mean what they want it to.

Notice the word 'For' in verse 9. This ties together the thoughts in verse 8 to verse 9. The characteristics of verse 8 were characteristics of these gifts in Paul's present day. We can see this in verse 9, which says that we know in part and we prophesy in part. In Paul's time, in his setting, they knew in part and they prophesied in part as illustrated by the characteristics of knowledge and prophecy in verse 8. Verse 8 does not say that the gift of prophecy will cease, but rather whether there are prophecies, they will cease (or whatever word best describes that.) Many cessationists regularly read in the idea of 'gift of prophecy' into the verse.

8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part,

Look at the time words 'now' and 'then.'

8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

If Paul were making this argument in terms of the time sequencing that you suggest, wouldn't we expect the word 'then' instead of 'now' in the final verse there?

If Paul were speaking of prophecy, tongues and knowledge in the same frame reference as faith, hope and love, wouldn't we have expected him to say this as well ? .. :"where there is faith, it will cease" .. "where there is hope, it too will cease" ? Because we know that both will be no longer when we are in the Lord's presence .. both will have been fully realized. Why would Paul stop with the "ceases and fading aways" when he did ? .. and not have included faith and hope with the prophecies, tongues and knowledge ? Your only defence and/or explanation is that "he didn't mean to". I'm afraid that's not acceptable. Paul said what he said. Accept it .. or don't.


[/SIZE]

 

[presidente]

I have a hard time accepting that you yourself believe this much conjecture. If anything, the above shows the length some will (and must) go to make a scripture say and mean what they want it to.

Conjecture? I'm arguing for sticking with what the text plainly says instead of conjecturing. Paul describes the characteristics of theses things in cases where they exist/occur.

If Paul were speaking of prophecy, tongues and knowledge in the same frame reference as faith, hope and love, wouldn't we have expected him to say this as well ? .. :"where there is faith, it will cease" .. "where there is hope, it too will cease" ? Because we know that both will be no longer when we are in the Lord's presence .. both will have been fully realized. Why would Paul stop with the "ceases and fading aways" when he did ? .. and not have included faith and hope with the prophecies, tongues and knowledge ? Your only defence and/or explanation is that "he didn't mean to". I'm afraid that's not acceptable. Paul said what he said. Accept it .. or don't.

Only defense? Defense to what? I don't get whatever point you are trying to make. What's a 'frame reference'? Maybe if you reworded it, I could follow what you are trying to say. I suspect you are reading time periods into the passage where I don't assume such an idea. I don't see any reason to think that faith, hope or love will pass away. The object of our hope will be here. We will be resurrected at Christ's return. Does that mean no more hope? I don't know. I don't have an opinion on that. We might still hope for Jesus delivering up the kingdom to God. I do not believe that all knowledge, or all revelatory knowledge will pass away from the earth. That which is part will be done way. So I believe partial knowledge will be replaced with something more complete.

We have incomplete knowledge. Paul had incomplete knowledge. Even with the Bible, we have incomplete knowledge. That is why we grow in knowledge during this lifetime.

By the way, rather than using red, you can use quotes. You can open up a quote by writing

and then close a quote by writing [/qoute] except spell it correctly as '/quote' in those brackets. That way, it doesn't look like I posted your reply in red.

 

[presidente]

plainguy,
Another comment. I wouldn't expect Paul to say faith ceases, because that is not a characteristic of faith that would be suitable to mention to believers who are supposed to believe. Paul was pointing out characteristics of tongues, prophecy, and knowledge that made them incomplete in our current state of being. I think you are reading time periods into certain verses where I am not. If you explained your assumptions, I might understand your post better.

 

[stonesoffire]

I've seen videos about Delia Knox. She was kind of a bit of a public figure as the wife of a pastor of a large church and as a gospel singer before her healing. I found an old public interest piece about her injury and how she sang gospel music.

Of course, critics will point out it wasn't a totally instantaneous healing. Of course, neither was the healing of one of the blind men Jesus laid hands on, who saw men like trees walking at first.

I don't remember if she had a severed spinal cord or just damaged, but I would differ greatly with anyone that would say it wasn't instantaneous. She had no feeling in her legs, and that was the first step in her healing when she began to worship after feeling was restored. It took some time, but she did stand. Then she walked with help.

She was back in her chair though after going home. It's not unusual for doubts and fears to rise. 20 some years is a long time to get over mentally, and physically.

I know personally a woman from my area who had a similar healing from MS. An instant healing, getting out of the chair, but used it while she gaining strength back, practicing walking. Muscles are weakened. It took her a full year to get back out of it. It was not relapsing MS.

If one sees it, one can be it.

Delia by the way is perfectly well today.

 

[presidente]

stonesoffire,

As I recall, it was the result of a brain injury. Part of the healing appears to have been instantaneous, but the strength did not return to her legs instantly. It's still an awesome testimony and we should be thankful.

 

[plainguy]

The perfect being described here is obviously love.

1 Co 13 - all about love.
1 Co 14:1 Pursue love... earnestly desire gifts...

Paul is explaining to go after love not gifts in 1 Co 12-14.

He's not saying gifts will cease when the New Testament is completed this is completely ignoring the context.

Of faith, love, and hope - the greatest is love.

That's why you follow love - not gifts.
That's why you desire prophesy in church over all the other gifts (because of love).

If you are correct Cee, I ask you. Has love not come yet ? Even perfect love ? Is this answer to this question determined individually according to ones own understanding and acceptance of it ? When that which is perfect comes, the partial will pass away. What is the "in part or partial" (that will pass away) other than that which is imperfect or incomplete ? Who was Paul speaking to .. contextually ? I'll get back to you later presidente. Lots of snow to deal with here.

1 Corinthians 13:9-13

9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. 11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways.12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.
13 So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

 

[zone]

No, we aren't, because the scripture teaches one activity is allowed and condemns the other. Paul says, 'Covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.'

But Jesus said, 'And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.'

but I don't speaketh against the Holy Ghost.
I speaketh against the lying signs and wonders crew

 

[zone]

VCO,

An atheist could use the same line of reasoning and say that because Kathryn Kuhlman's list of healings did not allegedly show any support, that the miracles of the apostles were false, too. It's the same type of reasoning you are using.

so was Kathryn Kuhlman true or false healer?

 

[zone]

....THEY DID NOT MEASURE UP TO WHAT THE APOSTLES DID.....

well, that's a pretty simple test

 

[zone]

I don't remember if she had a severed spinal cord or just damaged, but I would differ greatly with anyone that would say it wasn't instantaneous. She had no feeling in her legs, and that was the first step in her healing when she began to worship after feeling was restored. It took some time, but she did stand. Then she walked with help.

She was back in her chair though after going home. It's not unusual for doubts and fears to rise. 20 some years is a long time to get over mentally, and physically.

I know personally a woman from my area who had a similar healing from MS. An instant healing, getting out of the chair, but used it while she gaining strength back, practicing walking. Muscles are weakened. It took her a full year to get back out of it. It was not relapsing MS.

If one sees it, one can be it.

Delia by the way is perfectly well today.

[video=youtube;WugFmpSBRps]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WugFmpSBRps[/video]

Delia Knox Brain Injury, Not Spine Injury

"I've been searching for hours, and it appears Delia Knox has never publicly stated that her spine was damaged. In fact, she refuses to discuss the nature of her injury, she refuses to release her medical records relating to the injury, and she won't allow her doctor or physical therapist to be interviewed. Not quite full disclosure, and many would say that a lie of omission is still a lie. (Fast forward to :40 if you're impatient)"

 

[notuptome]

Where is the tipping point? Where does the need to see completely overcome the command to believe?

Moses demonstrated Gods power to unbelieving Egypt. Jesus demonstrated Gods power to unbelieving Israel.

Beware the golden calf of believing only what you see. God requires only belief.

For the cause of Christ
Roger