Today’s church’s misunderstandings

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mustaphadrink

Senior Member
Dec 13, 2013
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Do you have a Bible Chapter and Verse to support that incorrect statement?
No. But I do have bible verses that support that correct statement. And having just read 10 books about the life of the New Testament Church, not one of them said they met on Sunday.
 

mustaphadrink

Senior Member
Dec 13, 2013
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It introduces the new era of sabbaths. This side of the reformation .This when God changed the name of His born again bride Israel to her new name and more befitting name Christian.
I am sorry but I have no idea what your comment has to do with the verses I posted.
 

mustaphadrink

Senior Member
Dec 13, 2013
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1. You shall have no other gods before Me. - Acts 14:15
2. You shall make no idols. - 1 John 5:21
3. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain. - James 2:7; 5:12
4. Keep the Sabbath day holy. - Not binding on the Church - Colossians 2:16-17
5. Honor your father and your mother. - Ephesians 6:1-2
6. You shall not murder. - Romans 13:9-10; 1 John 3:15
7. You shall not commit adultery. - Romans 13:9-10; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10
8. You shall not steal. - Romans 13:9-10; Ephesians 4:28
9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. - Romans 13:9-10; Colossians 3:9-10
10. You shall not covet. - Romans 13:9-10; Ephesians 5:3
You are reading into it what is not there. Your play on words is very convenient It does not say anything about it being not binding on the church. The orginal Greek says that no one is to judge you in respect of a holy day which means Jewish holidays, also known as Jewish festivals or Yamim Tovim, are holidays observed in Judaism and by Jews throughout the Hebrew calendar. They include religious, cultural and national elements, derived from three sources: biblical mitzvot; rabbinic mandates; Jewish history and the history of the State of Israel.
 

mustaphadrink

Senior Member
Dec 13, 2013
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In terms of your statement, am I correct in concluding that Christians used to keep the Sabbath on Saturday and started going to church on Sunday because of one man’s decision.

So possibly, if Constantine had not decided that Christians should start going to church on Sunday, then all Christians would be going to church on Saturday in 2020 and we would not be having this debate of Saturday vs Sunday?

I have just read 10 different books about the life of the New Testament Church all from various perspectives, and everyone says that the NTC met on the Sabbath.

As for your comment that if Constantine had not decided on Sunday we would all be going to church on Saturday, I am not into speculation. I prefer to stick with the facts.

Remember that the one man was the Roman Emperor.
 

mustaphadrink

Senior Member
Dec 13, 2013
1,987
372
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negative.

the early church met on sun. morning, very early, before they went to work,

why? because Christ rose on sun. not the Sabbath.
I have just read 10 books about the life and times of the New Testament church and they all said that the church met on the sabbath and not one said they met on Sunday. So if you don't mind I will go with the body of evidence our of the mouth of many witnesses.
 

mustaphadrink

Senior Member
Dec 13, 2013
1,987
372
83
read the N.T.

you will see them there. there is NO command for gentile Christians to keep the jewish Sabbath.
And history and evidence shows that there is no evidence that they met on Sunday. If you have some I would like to see it.
 

mustaphadrink

Senior Member
Dec 13, 2013
1,987
372
83
negative.

the early church met on sun. morning, very early, before they went to work,

why? because Christ rose on sun. not the Sabbath.
Other than speculation, where is the evidence for this claim?
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
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Other than speculation, where is the evidence for this claim?

well, in 112 a.d., roman governor pliny the younger investigated Christians at the behest of the roman emperor , and in letters he spoke of Christians meeting very early in the morning ( his words " they are accustomed to meeting on a fixed day very early in the morning).

so, since Sabbath ended at sundown, this was clearly sun. morning.

which is in line with Scripture saying that Jesus rose on sun. morning, not on the jewish Sabbath.
 

mustaphadrink

Senior Member
Dec 13, 2013
1,987
372
83
well, in 112 a.d., roman governor pliny the younger investigated Christians at the behest of the roman emperor , and in letters he spoke of Christians meeting very early in the morning ( his words " they are accustomed to meeting on a fixed day very early in the morning).

so, since Sabbath ended at sundown, this was clearly sun. morning.

which is in line with Scripture saying that Jesus rose on sun. morning, not on the jewish Sabbath.
And the 10 books I have read that describe how the New Testament Church lived and conducted itself, all said they met on the Sabbath and not one said they met on Sunday. With such overwhelming evidence, I am compelled to go with that.

As a university graduate, I know that I stand a better chance of getting a good mark with 10 books to reference that if I use one letter to reference.
 

mustaphadrink

Senior Member
Dec 13, 2013
1,987
372
83
well, in 112 a.d., roman governor pliny the younger investigated Christians at the behest of the roman emperor , and in letters he spoke of Christians meeting very early in the morning ( his words " they are accustomed to meeting on a fixed day very early in the morning).

so, since Sabbath ended at sundown, this was clearly sun. morning.

which is in line with Scripture saying that Jesus rose on sun. morning, not on the jewish Sabbath.
Saying Christians met very early in the morning is not proof that they met on Sunday.
 
Mar 28, 2016
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And the 10 books I have read that describe how the New Testament Church lived and conducted itself, all said they met on the Sabbath and not one said they met on Sunday. With such overwhelming evidence, I am compelled to go with that.

As a university graduate, I know that I stand a better chance of getting a good mark with 10 books to reference that if I use one letter to reference.
The bible reference the one book that provides the best hope in understanding that ceremonial law as a shadow .
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,574
13,551
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Look up all the verses that say the first day of the week I the original greek.
So you have no chapter and verse to prove that the New Testament church met on the Sabbath, not Sunday? Are you SDA?

Admittedly, a form of the Greek word for sabbath (sabbaton or sabbatou) does appear in each of the eight passages translated “first day of the week.” For example, in Acts 20:7 this phrase is translated from the Greek mia ton sabbaton. However, sabbaton (or sabbatou) is never translated as “the Sabbath day” in these passages. Why? Because the word is used in these contexts (as Greek scholars overwhelmingly agree) to denote a “week” (Perschbacher, 1990, p. 364), “a period of seven days” (Danker, et al., 2000, p. 910; cf. Thayer, 1962, p. 566). Jesus once used the term “Sabbath” in this sense while teaching about the sinfulness of self-righteousness (Luke 18:9). He told a parable of the sanctimonious Pharisee who prayed: “God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess” (18:11-12, emp. added). The phrase “twice a week” comes from the Greek dis tou sabbatou. Obviously Jesus was not saying that the Pharisee boasted of fasting twice on the Sabbath day, but twice (dis) a week (tou sabbatou).

According to R.C.H. Lenski, since “[t]he Jews had no names for the weekdays,” they “designated them with reference to their Sabbath” (1943, p. 1148). Thus, mia ton sabbatonmeans “the first (day) with reference to the Sabbath,” i.e., the first (day) following the Sabbath (Lenski, p. 1148), or, as we would say in 21st century English, “the first day of the week.”

After spending years examining Jewish writings in the Babylonian Talmud, Hebraist John Lightfoot wrote A Commentary on the New Testament from the Talmud and Hebraica, in which he expounded upon the Hebrew method of counting the days of the week. He noted: “The Jews reckon the days of the week thus; One day (or the first day) of the sabbath: two (or the second day) of the sabbath;” etc. (1859, 2:375, emp. in orig.). Lightfoot then quoted from two different Talmud tractates. Maccoth alludes to those who testify on “the first of the sabbath” about an individual who stole an ox. Judgment was then passed the following day—“on the second day of the sabbath” (Lightfoot, 2:375, emp. in orig.; Maccoth, Chapter 1). Bava Kama describes ten enactments ordained by a man named Ezra, including the public reading of the law “on the second and fifth days of the sabbath,” and the washing of clothes “on the fifth day of the sabbath” (Lightfoot, 2:375; Bava Kama, Chapter 7). In Michael Rodkinson’s 1918 translation of Maccoth and Bava Kama, he accurately translated “the second day of the sabbath” as Monday, “the fifth day of the sabbath” as Thursday, and “the first of the sabbath” as Sunday.

If the word sabbaton in passages such as Matthew 28:1, Mark 16:2, and Acts 20:7 actually denoted “the Sabbath day,” rather than “a period of seven days,” one would expect some of the foremost Bible translations to translate it thusly. Every major English translation of the Bible, however, translates mia ton sabbaton as “the first day of the week.” Why? Because scholars are aware of the Jewish method of counting the days of the week by using the Sabbath as a reference point.

Apologetics Press - “The First Day of the Week”

Matthew 28:1 - Now after the Sabbath, as the first day of the week began to dawn, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to see the tomb.

Now when the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices, that they might come and anoint Him. 2 Very early in the morning, on the first day of the week, they came to the tomb when the sun had risen.

Christians met on the first day of the week and not on the Sabbath.

Acts 20:7 - Now on the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul, ready to depart the next day, spoke to them and continued his message until midnight.

1 Corinthians 16:1 - Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given orders to the churches of Galatia, so you must do also: 2 On the first day of the week let each one of you lay something aside, storing up as he may prosper, that there be no collections when I come.
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
12,405
6,741
113
And the 10 books I have read that describe how the New Testament Church lived and conducted itself, all said they met on the Sabbath and not one said they met on Sunday. With such overwhelming evidence, I am compelled to go with that.

As a university graduate, I know that I stand a better chance of getting a good mark with 10 books to reference that if I use one letter to reference.
that is not from a book. it is in a letter written by roman governor pliny the younger to the roman emperor .

it's called a historical document , not some random book written by a ellen white disciple...
 

mustaphadrink

Senior Member
Dec 13, 2013
1,987
372
83
that is not from a book. it is in a letter written by roman governor pliny the younger to the roman emperor .

it's called a historical document , not some random book written by a ellen white disciple...
Who is ellen white? And one source whatever it is will not get you a good mark in a university paper. Because I have three university degrees for which I have written numerous papers for, I tend to adopt the same methodology with anything I am studying. If I don't I can get lazy and offer one source and say that is good enough when I know it isn't.

Recently I finished studying the life of the New Testament Church for a Ph.D. but despite this fact, I have been told by some that I don't know what I am talking about.

I tend to let silly and infantile remarks like that go through to the keeper.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,574
13,551
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You are reading into it what is not there. Your play on words is very convenient It does not say anything about it being not binding on the church.
It clearly says - Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day— 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ. (Colossians 2:16-17) Now show me in the New Testament where the Church is commanded to keep the sabbath day.

The orginal Greek says that no one is to judge you in respect of a holy day which means Jewish holidays, also known as Jewish festivals or Yamim Tovim, are holidays observed in Judaism and by Jews throughout the Hebrew calendar. They include religious, cultural and national elements, derived from three sources: biblical mitzvot; rabbinic mandates; Jewish history and the history of the State of Israel.
An unbiased reading of Colossians 2:16 will show that this is talking about not just "ceremonial Sabbaths." The words "ton sabbaton" or "sabbath days"; are the same words translated "Sabbath day" in Exodus 20:8 in the Septuagint (the Jewish translation of the Old Testament into Greek).

Look at Paul's reasoning, "Let no one judge you regarding a,
• festival - yearly Sabbaths,​
• a new moon - monthly Sabbaths,​
• or a Sabbath day - weekly Sabbaths (or if you wish Sabbath days)"​
CHRIST, he goes on to say is the "Substance", these things were shadows.​
When this passage is compared with Galatians 4:9 an obvious connection in Paul's teaching is revealed:
"But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? You observe days and months and seasons and years."
Verse 10 flatly states, "you observe...",
• days (weekly Sabbaths, corresponding to "Sabbath days in Col. 2)​
• months (new moons, corresponding to "a new moon" in Col. 2)​
• seasons (the 7 feasts, corresponding to "festivals" in Col. 2)​
• and years (the sabbatical year and the 50th year of Jubilee)​
Obviously Paul is clearing speaking about the observances of all Jewish holy day, including the Sabbath.

https://www.exadventist.com/Home/Sabbath/SabbathSunday/tabid/516/Default.aspx
 

mustaphadrink

Senior Member
Dec 13, 2013
1,987
372
83
So you have no chapter and verse to prove that the New Testament church met on the Sabbath, not Sunday? Are you SDA?

Admittedly, a form of the Greek word for sabbath (sabbaton or sabbatou) does appear in each of the eight passages translated “first day of the week.” For example, in Acts 20:7 this phrase is translated from the Greek mia ton sabbaton. However, sabbaton (or sabbatou) is never translated as “the Sabbath day” in these passages. Why? Because the word is used in these contexts (as Greek scholars overwhelmingly agree) to denote a “week” (Perschbacher, 1990, p. 364), “a period of seven days” (Danker, et al., 2000, p. 910; cf. Thayer, 1962, p. 566). Jesus once used the term “Sabbath” in this sense while teaching about the sinfulness of self-righteousness (Luke 18:9). He told a parable of the sanctimonious Pharisee who prayed: “God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess” (18:11-12, emp. added). The phrase “twice a week” comes from the Greek dis tou sabbatou. Obviously Jesus was not saying that the Pharisee boasted of fasting twice on the Sabbath day, but twice (dis) a week (tou sabbatou).

According to R.C.H. Lenski, since “[t]he Jews had no names for the weekdays,” they “designated them with reference to their Sabbath” (1943, p. 1148). Thus, mia ton sabbatonmeans “the first (day) with reference to the Sabbath,” i.e., the first (day) following the Sabbath (Lenski, p. 1148), or, as we would say in 21st century English, “the first day of the week.”

After spending years examining Jewish writings in the Babylonian Talmud, Hebraist John Lightfoot wrote A Commentary on the New Testament from the Talmud and Hebraica, in which he expounded upon the Hebrew method of counting the days of the week. He noted: “The Jews reckon the days of the week thus; One day (or the first day) of the sabbath: two (or the second day) of the sabbath;” etc. (1859, 2:375, emp. in orig.). Lightfoot then quoted from two different Talmud tractates. Maccoth alludes to those who testify on “the first of the sabbath” about an individual who stole an ox. Judgment was then passed the following day—“on the second day of the sabbath” (Lightfoot, 2:375, emp. in orig.; Maccoth, Chapter 1). Bava Kama describes ten enactments ordained by a man named Ezra, including the public reading of the law “on the second and fifth days of the sabbath,” and the washing of clothes “on the fifth day of the sabbath” (Lightfoot, 2:375; Bava Kama, Chapter 7). In Michael Rodkinson’s 1918 translation of Maccoth and Bava Kama, he accurately translated “the second day of the sabbath” as Monday, “the fifth day of the sabbath” as Thursday, and “the first of the sabbath” as Sunday.

If the word sabbaton in passages such as Matthew 28:1, Mark 16:2, and Acts 20:7 actually denoted “the Sabbath day,” rather than “a period of seven days,” one would expect some of the foremost Bible translations to translate it thusly. Every major English translation of the Bible, however, translates mia ton sabbaton as “the first day of the week.” Why? Because scholars are aware of the Jewish method of counting the days of the week by using the Sabbath as a reference point.

Apologetics Press - “The First Day of the Week”

Matthew 28:1 - Now after the Sabbath, as the first day of the week began to dawn, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to see the tomb.

Now when the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices, that they might come and anoint Him. 2 Very early in the morning, on the first day of the week, they came to the tomb when the sun had risen.

Christians met on the first day of the week and not on the Sabbath.

Acts 20:7 - Now on the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul, ready to depart the next day, spoke to them and continued his message until midnight.

1 Corinthians 16:1 - Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given orders to the churches of Galatia, so you must do also: 2 On the first day of the week let each one of you lay something aside, storing up as he may prosper, that there be no collections when I come.
Congratulations. A nice bit of cut and paste.
 

mustaphadrink

Senior Member
Dec 13, 2013
1,987
372
83
It clearly says - Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day— 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ. (Colossians 2:16-17) Now show me in the New Testament where the Church is commanded to keep the sabbath day.

An unbiased reading of Colossians 2:16 will show that this is talking about not just "ceremonial Sabbaths." The words "ton sabbaton" or "sabbath days"; are the same words translated "Sabbath day" in Exodus 20:8 in the Septuagint (the Jewish translation of the Old Testament into Greek).

Look at Paul's reasoning, "Let no one judge you regarding a,
• festival - yearly Sabbaths,​
• a new moon - monthly Sabbaths,​
• or a Sabbath day - weekly Sabbaths (or if you wish Sabbath days)"​
CHRIST, he goes on to say is the "Substance", these things were shadows.​
When this passage is compared with Galatians 4:9 an obvious connection in Paul's teaching is revealed:
"But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? You observe days and months and seasons and years."
Verse 10 flatly states, "you observe...",
• days (weekly Sabbaths, corresponding to "Sabbath days in Col. 2)​
• months (new moons, corresponding to "a new moon" in Col. 2)​
• seasons (the 7 feasts, corresponding to "festivals" in Col. 2)​
• and years (the sabbatical year and the 50th year of Jubilee)​
Obviously Paul is clearing speaking about the observances of all Jewish holy day, including the Sabbath.

https://www.exadventist.com/Home/Sabbath/SabbathSunday/tabid/516/Default.aspx
Congratulations. A nice bit of cut and paste. However, I wil get back to you when I have worked out why 10 authors said they met on the sabbath, not sunday. I will try and find out why they needed to lie.