Today’s church’s misunderstandings

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posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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the idea that Christians didn't meet on the 8th day until Constantine or the pope 'changed the traditions' is a misunderstanding in the church.

that's an idea originally pushed by SDA who call worshiping God on any day other than saturday 'the mark of the beast'
and more recently by what's collectively called 'Hebrew roots' movement.

the truth is that the church has since the beginning met on the 8th day, called it the Lord's day, and believed from scripture that Christ rose on this day, and that we ought to allow no one to judge us over sabbaths, feasts, meats or festivals -- which things are only shadows.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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not trying to push any doctrine here. just quoting in order to establish the truth about what Christians believed prior to the Nicene council:
If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death-whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith, and therefore endure, that we may be found the disciples of Jesus Christ, our only Master-how shall we be able to live apart from Him, whose disciples the prophets themselves in the Spirit did wait for Him as their Teacher? And therefore He whom they rightly waited for, being come, raised them from the dead. If, then, those who were conversant with the ancient Scriptures came to newness of hope, expecting the coming of Christ, as the Lord teaches us when He says, "If ye had believed Moses, ye would have believed Me, for he wrote of Me; " and again, "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it, and was glad; for before Abraham was, I am; " how shall we be able to live without Him? The prophets were His servants, and foresaw Him by the Spirit, and waited for Him as their Teacher, and expected Him as their Lord and Saviour, saying, "He will come and save us." Let us therefore no longer keep the Sabbath after the Jewish manner, and rejoice in days of idleness; for "he that does not work, let him not eat." For say the [holy] oracles, "In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat thy bread." But let every one of you keep the Sabbath after a spiritual manner, rejoicing in meditation on the law, not in relaxation of the body, admiring the workmanship of God, and not eating things prepared the day before, nor using lukewarm drinks, and walking within a prescribed space, nor finding delight in dancing and plaudits which have no sense in them. And after the observance of the Sabbath, let every friend of Christ keep the Lord's Day as a festival, the resurrection-day, the queen and chief of all the days [of the week]. Looking forward to this, the prophet declared, "To the end, for the eighth day," on which our life both sprang up again, and the victory over death was obtained in Christ, whom the children of perdition, the enemies of the Saviour, deny, "whose god is their belly, who mind earthly things," who are "lovers of pleasure, and not lovers of God, having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof." These make merchandise of Christ, corrupting His word, and giving up Jesus to sale: they are corrupters of women, and covetous of other men's possessions, swallowing up wealth insatiably; from whom may ye be delivered by the mercy of God through our Lord Jesus Christ!
(Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians, Chapter IX) ~ 250AD
 
Aug 14, 2019
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is written: MATT. 5:17.
Think not that I am come to destroy the Law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18.
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the Law,
till all be fulfilled.
How many ceremonial laws did the Apostles obligate the Gentile converts to observe?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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Matthew 16 18-19
18 And I tell you, you are Peter,[a] and on this rock[b] I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”
ah! that's what i was guessing was where you drew that interpretation from.
i don't think that this means the apostles were deciding what parts of the Law to keep and what to abrogate -- do you know, the grammar used in this verse isn't accurately represented by the translation you put?
it's not 'whatever you bind/loose will be bound in heaven..'
it's literally, 'shall have already been bound in heaven' and 'shall have already been loosed in heaven' -- the 'bound/loosed in heaven' is past tense; the sense is that the things they do will have been foreordained and that they will be carrying out the will of heaven. that heaven is the causal actor here, things having been bound or loosed there first, before any apostle binds or looses them on earth.


so, it is God who appoints the times and seasons, not Peter -- this is what i think is the right interpretation. they walked after the Spirit doing 'the works God has prepared for them' & likewise didn't create doctrine themselves, but had it revealed to them, and taught it.
 
Aug 14, 2019
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ah! that's what i was guessing was where you drew that interpretation from.
i don't think that this means the apostles were deciding what parts of the Law to keep and what to abrogate -- do you know, the grammar used in this verse isn't accurately represented by the translation you put?
it's not 'whatever you bind/loose will be bound in heaven..'
it's literally, 'shall have already been bound in heaven' and 'shall have already been loosed in heaven' -- the 'bound/loosed in heaven' is past tense; the sense is that the things they do will have been foreordained and that they will be carrying out the will of heaven. that heaven is the causal actor here, things having been bound or loosed there first, before any apostle binds or looses them on earth.


so, it is God who appoints the times and seasons, not Peter -- this is what i think is the right interpretation. they walked after the Spirit doing 'the works God has prepared for them' & likewise didn't create doctrine themselves, but had it revealed to them, and taught it.
Amen!
I fully agree. The Holy Spirit draws from what Jesus said is 'mine'. Thank you so much for that!
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
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i am not presently arguing whether one should keep sabbath or not.

what i am saying is that the thing which is cultic is perverting the actual history of the church, arguing that the pope or Constantine 'changed' the day Christians traditionally met. that is not true

I will make a beginning of the eighth day, that is, a beginning of another world. For that reason, also, we keep the eighth day with joyfulness, the day on which Jesus rose again from the dead.
Barnabas 15:8-9, ~ 100AD
The seventh day is proclaimed a day of rest, preparing by abstention from evil for the Primal day, our true rest.
- Clement of Alexandria ~ 190AD
We solemnize the day after Saturday in contradistinction to those who call this day their Sabbath
Tertullian's Apology, Ch 16 ~ 200AD
all the early church writings we have, hundreds of years prior to the council at Nicene, demonstrate that Christians had the tradition of meeting on the 8th day, calling it the Lord's day, and believing it - the day of the feast of firstfruits - is the day Christ rose.

what is cultic is quoting people from the 1900's about whether Believers in the 100's met on the 7th vs. the 8th
when we have actual writings from actual Christians in the first 3 centuries unquestionably proving the opposite.




i am not arguing the rightness or wrongness of 7th days.
i am showing you that the church has always observed the 8th.
i don't think you have it exactly straight. It is true that pagans converted to Christianity before Constantine also kept to their practice of making Sunday their sabbath, but it was Constantine that made it law. Constantine made government laws part of the laws for the church. He said he had the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit gave him that right. The majority of Christians before the final destruction of the temple were Jews who did no feel that Christ changed the ways of the Father God.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
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How many ceremonial laws did the Apostles obligate the Gentile converts to observe?
I haven't found the answer to this, I hope some poster has. Scripture doesn't tell us.

Scripture lists laws they are to follow, but all those laws listed were ones necessary for gentiles to be accepted in the Synagogue that they were to go to in order to learn the ways of the Lord. No mention is made of what is and isn't ceremonial law.
 
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I haven't found the answer to this, I hope some poster has. Scripture doesn't tell us.

Scripture lists laws they are to follow, but all those laws listed were ones necessary for gentiles to be accepted in the Synagogue that they were to go to in order to learn the ways of the Lord. No mention is made of what is and isn't ceremonial law.
When Paul went to Jerusalem and corrected Peter they agreed that Paul was to go to the Gentiles and they to the circumsized. The only obligation asked for was to remember the poor.
 
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Ceremonial law now centers on Jesus. The what- the breaking of bread. The empty tomb determined when - first day of the week. The Holy Spirit revealed that the former ceremonies are fulfilled by making them unavailable to those who profess Christ as Lord.
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
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I prayed about it and for the sake of everyone the Answer is "no" I do not believe keeping the Sabbath will save you.
Now having said that it does not take away the importance of the Sabbath. The Sabbath was "given for man"
to enjoy. To come together with other believers. I believe in the Sabbath because it reminds me that I worship something better than just a moral guidance but a God that can "create" and he can "create" a new heart in us. A God that can create the world and all that is in it in just 7 days

Now if he can do that then he can creat a new heart in all men.

let the Sabbath bashing start. witch is what I was trying to avoid. was not avoiding you per say but the way you come across as an "Accuser" and only look to twist my words.

i am not bashing the Sabbath. if anyone chooses to keep the Sabbath, that is fine. if anyone chooses to keep the Lord's day, ( as i do), that is fine,

what i stand up against is people saying that one HAS to keep the Sabbath. that is lie, false teaching.

it seems like you are not saying that, so thank you for answering, God bless you are yours.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
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Ceremonial law now centers on Jesus. The what- the breaking of bread. The empty tomb determined when - first day of the week. The Holy Spirit revealed that the former ceremonies are fulfilled by making them unavailable to those who profess Christ as Lord.
Personally, I have found such richness, such holiness, such profound completeness in the old testament. As I study the feasts and what they mean, as I live my everyday, get up in the mornings, life, adding these things that center my life on the Lord seems something that all the taboos of the earthly church has ruled out seem so limiting and uncalled for.

That is not me speaking of what the Lord tells us, it is purely from my human self.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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I haven't found the answer to this, I hope some poster has. Scripture doesn't tell us.

Scripture lists laws they are to follow, but all those laws listed were ones necessary for gentiles to be accepted in the Synagogue that they were to go to in order to learn the ways of the Lord. No mention is made of what is and isn't ceremonial law.
Ac 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

James did not place any greater burden upon the early church believers than what God gave him. The early church would not
learn of the Lord in the temple but would be taught to be like the Pharisees.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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pagans converted to Christianity before Constantine also kept to their practice of making Sunday their sabbath
Show me historical evidence that pagans kept their own versions of sabbath on Sundays...?

I have shown you historical evidence that Christians have considered the 8th day their day of worship and did not keep the sabbaths of the law, long before Constantine
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
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people cannot show assumptions and opinions.
 
L

lenna

Guest
Ok. You just came across rude and combative. I am not here for that. So I feel no need to answer you.
not at all

I guess you find the truth to be more than you can handle. most people here have noticed that when someone fudges their answers and avoids answering altogether, they basically cannot answer the posts that question the fudging and avoiding

so if you want to hide behind words like rude etc, I guess that is how you view this forum. that's a shame

thats' ok. I understand

one more thing though, you combined gb9 and my post together, so he is also rude etc according to you?

classic avoidance syndrome
 
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lenna

Guest
Rude! How old are you?
why?

do you require respect because you are 104 years old or something?

respect is earned. I would say you currently have a deficit
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
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Show me historical evidence that pagans kept their own versions of sabbath on Sundays...?

I have shown you historical evidence that Christians have considered the 8th day their day of worship and did not keep the sabbaths of the law, long before Constantine
You changed what I wrote completely with your "pagans kept their own version". I said nothing of the kind. How could pagans keep their version of believing in idols if they accepted Christ? n
 

laymen

Senior Member
Apr 6, 2014
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faithlife.com
not at all

I guess you find the truth to be more than you can handle. most people here have noticed that when someone fudges their answers and avoids answering altogether, they basically cannot answer the posts that question the fudging and avoiding

so if you want to hide behind words like rude etc, I guess that is how you view this forum. that's a shame

thats' ok. I understand

one more thing though, you combined gb9 and my post together, so he is also rude etc according to you?

classic avoidance syndrome
No I did Finally answer him . And have No problem getting my point across. Not sure what post is was though. Text can sometime come across wrong and just did not want this to be and argument. We should build each other up not the other way around. If Sunday is your worship day then ok I can’t persuade you against your will because you’ll be under the same opinion still.
 

laymen

Senior Member
Apr 6, 2014
680
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faithlife.com
not at all

I guess you find the truth to be more than you can handle. most people here have noticed that when someone fudges their answers and avoids answering altogether, they basically cannot answer the posts that question the fudging and avoiding

so if you want to hide behind words like rude etc, I guess that is how you view this forum. that's a shame

thats' ok. I understand

one more thing though, you combined gb9 and my post together, so he is also rude etc according to you?

classic avoidance syndrome
But this post does show me that you are combative.
 
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lenna

Guest
But this post does show me that you are combative.
nah. you and several others here consider anyone who disagrees with the Sabbath worshippers as combative

that's too bad. you are so prejudiced against any disagreement, you see it as combative

I think that refers much more to the nature of someone who has to be right...as it appears do you

you may see no need to answer someone and I really do not get in a tizzy if you or anyone else, does or not answer

rather it is your attitude that I find off putting