Thief on the Cross

[Noose]

All ya have to do is move the comma: Luke 23:43 "And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee[,] To day, shalt thou be with me in paradise." There was no punctuation in the original Greek. ESV: Luke 23:43 "And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you[,] today, you will be with me in paradise.”"

I agree, there was no coma in the original Greek, but why do you have to move the coma in your version of 'original Greek'? is it to fit your understanding?

 

[Deade]

God's Word will never, ever contradict itself. When scriptures seem to defy one another the problem is not the Word. The problem will always be found in an individual's interpretation.

The only way one can be assured that what they perceive as true of a particular scripture, is when the context of 2 or 3 other scriptures line up with the scripture in question. This principle is what confirms one's understanding is correct. (2 Cor 13:1)

You are fairly well researched, but you broke one of your own rules here. As per the rule you just stated, we must establish all doctrine on two or three witnesses (see John 8:17; Matt 18:16). Let us look at where you got off track.

When studying whether the thief on the cross died under the OT dispensation or the NT dispensation one must consider when the NT began.

God’s Word is specific regarding what makes it possible for the NT church to be reborn spiritually. Without the death, burial and resurrection of the Lord Jesus, rebirth was impossible for the NT church.

The record in Matthew 27:53 was brought up as evidence that the thief on the cross died after Jesus died and was resurrected, thus it would seem the thief died after the NT began. Upon studying the scripture verses it is clear that this is not the case.

One knows that evidence of an established concept requires 2-3 other scripture verses that comply with one another. Knowing that there are many scriptures that indicate Jesus Christ resurrected 3 days after His death is the first clue. (Mark 8:31; John 2:19; Matt. 12:40)

So due to other scripture verses debunking what one thinks Matt 27:53 portrays the error has to be in one’s understanding of that particular scripture verse.

Matt 27:50-53
Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection,

Upon reading the above scripture verses it is clear that after Jesus’ crucifixion the graves broke open due to the earthquake. It goes on to say the bodies of the saints rose and came out of the graves after His resurrection. The bodies could not have been raised until Jesus was raised. The conclusion is that the events happened but not at the exact time of Jesus’ death.

Additional scripture verses confirm the conclusion:
Acts 26:23
That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

1 Cor 15:20
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Let us look at Acts 26:23 and conclude that says nothing of other resurrected saints. As for 1 Cor 15:20; we can look at 1 Cor 15:23: "But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming." Hasn't happened yet.

Col 1:18
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Rev 1:5
And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Well Col. 1:18 speaks of preeminence but not of when. Same as Rev. 1:5. But other scripture clearly states that the rest of the saints resurrection is yet future (see John 5:28; 1 Thess. 2:19; 1 Thess. 3:13; 1 John 2:28).

 

[Deade]

As far as Matt 27:53 is concerned, there is no other scripture, that I am aware of, to compare with it. It does mention bodies coming out of the graves. When this occurred whether on crucifixion or resurrection day is questionable.

Jesus has indeed resurrected and did so bodily on the third day after crucifixion. Jesus became the firstfruit on that day irrespective of the timing of any other resurrections in the future.

I understand why you cannot account for the scripture in Matt. 27:53. That is why when I have only one reference of scripture I do not draw doctrine off of it. I am convinced some scriptures have been messed with by early Christians with agendas. Just my opinion.

 

[Deade]

I agree, there was no coma in the original Greek, but why do you have to move the coma in your version of 'original Greek'? is it to fit your understanding?

I am just saying if the comma were placed differently, it would change the meaning and would make it fit with other scriptures. Clearly, Christ was not in paradise that day.

 

[JaumeJ]

In original Hebrew, there were no separations of sentences phrases or even words. There are no capital letters in Hebrew and nothing of punctuaion as we know it, although in the Psalms we do se the word fo pause.....selah. I do not know much Greek except some of the amenities, so do not ask me about punctuation in Greek. It seems back in the day there was none but other know better than I. God bless all in Jesus, Yeshua, ad let us all aim for understanding by the Holy Spirit, amen.

 

[Wansvic]

I understand why you cannot account for the scripture in Matt. 27:53. That is why when I have only one reference of scripture I do not draw doctrine off of it. I am convinced some scriptures have been messed with by early Christians with agendas. Just my opinion.

Someone objected to my saying that the NT church began after Jesus' bodily resurrection. They referenced that verse in Matt. stating they believed the NT church began on the day of Jesus' crucifixion. This cannot be possible as the spiritual rebirth of the NT church could not take place until after the Holy Ghost was poured out on the Day of Pentecost.
Should have just stuck to the verifiable facts. lol

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The thief went to paradise because he did what every other person from the beginning of time did, He did what abraham did, What david did, What daniel did, What paul did, What peter did, What Timothy did, What my pastors did, What I have done, and what so many other people in Christian chat did.

They believed in the fact that because of sin, they were alienated from a living all powerful perfect God

They (we) believed That God will/has provided a means to atone for those sins as God promised he would. And restor us to a right relationship with him.

He did not have to be baptised. Because water baptism has never saved one person. We are saved by FAITH, not work. By Gods mercy not our works of righteousness. By Gods work. Not our own. Even our faith is the work of God.

Water baptism is a work. As are all other commands.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Salvation has always been the same

The symbols or traditions are what has changed

The only two real things God has commanded the church to do is water baptism and communion or the lords supper, unlike in the OT where there were many (circumcision, Ceremonial washings, Sabbath, keeping the traditions of the law etc etc etc.)

Yet NON of these traditions handed down by Gods command have ever made one person or even had a part in making one person right with God.

 

[he-rat_of_the_circus-mice]

Each person, including the thief on the cross, that perished before Jesus entered into the holy place and obtained eternal redemption for mankind, was judged by the Old Testament mandates. The obligation to God then was to have faith in the coming Messiah and to be circumcised.”

Uh oh! This sounds like salvation through Christ + works. Didn't you learn from Paul's lesson to the Galatians?

To believe this, one has to believe that this man had been circumcised, something that there is no proof for in scripture (perhaps he was stealing because he was poor, and his parents before him were poor, and as a result they couldn't afford to pay for his circumcision?) So if you believe that circumcision contributed to the man's salvation, you might as well believe that baptism contributed to his salvation, as scripture is silent on both matters. Both are Christ + works false gospels, so both are equally dangerous.

 

[PennEd]

This is an excellent, well researched, and Biblically footnoted piece on the differences in the translated word "hell" all through Scripture. As well as tackling the erroneous doctrine of "soul sleep" and where Jesus went in the 3 days after crucifixion, and where the thief went as well. It is lengthly, but well worth your time if you are interested in these subject matters:

https://www.bereanbiblesociety.org/hell-sheol-hades-paradise-and-the-grave/

 

[Noose]

I am just saying if the comma were placed differently, it would change the meaning and would make it fit with other scriptures. Clearly, Christ was not in paradise that day.

I know your stand on this issue, it NEEDS the coma to be placed on the other side because you reject the meaning with the coma on the other side.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

If you believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God you will be saved. The thief on the cross expressed his belief in Jesus Christ……………..

NAILED IT!!

 

[PennEd]

All ya have to do is move the comma: Luke 23:43 "And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee[,] To day, shalt thou be with me in paradise." There was no punctuation in the original Greek. ESV: Luke 23:43 "And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you[,] today, you will be with me in paradise.”"

I have looked at over a dozen different translations of this verse and NONE of them have the comma AFTER TODAY. OR bracketing the word TO DAY. Not a SINGLE ONE.

Also, there are scores of either "Verily I say unto you" OR" Verily, verily I say unto you" verses. And Luke 23:43 would be the ONLY place where Jesus said "Today" followed by info or instructions. Meaning He was giving the info today, but the info wasn't FOR today. No. The today was there to indicate that the thief would be WITH Him THAT day. Like when He said this:
Luke 4:21 New King James Version (NKJV)
21 And He began to say to them, “Today this Scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.” The "today' meant TODAY!

Finally, In the Luke 23 passage above, the word TO DAY in the context you mean would be redundant and completely unnecessary.

 

[Noose]

Someone objected to my saying that the NT church began after Jesus' bodily resurrection. They referenced that verse in Matt. stating they believed the NT church began on the day of Jesus' crucifixion. This cannot be possible as the spiritual rebirth of the NT church could not take place until after the Holy Ghost was poured out on the Day of Pentecost.
Should have just stuck to the verifiable facts. lol

What happened on the day of Pentecost? The disciples were given power to go and preach the gospel unto the world; the added gift was the gift of tongues to help them in this course.
Fact: the disciples healed/ drove out demons/ did miracles /preached the kingdom before Pentecost. In whose power did they do all these?

 

[Wansvic]

What happened on the day of Pentecost? The disciples were given power to go and preach the gospel unto the world; the added gift was the gift of tongues to help them in this course.
Fact: the disciples healed/ drove out demons/ did miracles /preached the kingdom before Pentecost. In whose power did they do all these?

The Holy Ghost was poured into the bodies of those present on the Day of Pentecost. The resulting tongues was the evidence that the Spirit was now residing in the individual's body. The gift was the Holy Ghost. (Luke 11:13)

Luke 11:13
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

 

[Noose]

The Holy Ghost was poured into the bodies of those present on the Day of Pentecost. The resulting tongues was the evidence that the Spirit was now residing in the individual's body. The gift was the Holy Ghost. (Luke 11:13)

Luke 11:13
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

My point is; the disciples healed and did miracles before Pentecost, were they not doing all these by the Holy spirit? Did the gift of healing only become a gift after the Pentecost even though they healed before Pentecost?

 

[Deade]

I have looked at over a dozen different translations of this verse and NONE of them have the comma AFTER TODAY. OR bracketing the word TO DAY. Not a SINGLE ONE.

Also, there are scores of either "Verily I say unto you" OR" Verily, verily I say unto you" verses. And Luke 23:43 would be the ONLY place where Jesus said "Today" followed by info or instructions. Meaning He was giving the info today, but the info wasn't FOR today. No. The today was there to indicate that the thief would be WITH Him THAT day. Like when He said this:
Luke 4:21 New King James Version (NKJV)
21 And He began to say to them, “Today this Scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.” The "today' meant TODAY!

Finally, In the Luke 23 passage above, the word TO DAY in the context you mean would be redundant and completely unnecessary.

Well then, show me a scripture that confirms that Jesus did indeed go to paradise that day.

 

[Wansvic]

Uh oh! This sounds like salvation through Christ + works. Didn't you learn from Paul's lesson to the Galatians?

To believe this, one has to believe that this man had been circumcised, something that there is no proof for in scripture (perhaps he was stealing because he was poor, and his parents before him were poor, and as a result they couldn't afford to pay for his circumcision?) So if you believe that circumcision contributed to the man's salvation, you might as well believe that baptism contributed to his salvation, as scripture is silent on both matters. Both are Christ + works false gospels, so both are equally dangerous.

In the OT dispensation, God stated that being in covenant with Him required one to be circumcised. I didn't say that, God did. God also said that the uncircumcised person would be cut off from his people for breaking covenant with God.

"This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.
He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant." Gen 17:10-14

Also, Moses son had not been circumcised which prompted the Lord to set out to kill him:

Ex 4:24-26
And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the Lord met him, and sought to kill him.
Then Zipporah took a sharp stone, and cut off the foreskin of her son, and cast it at his feet, and said, Surely a bloody husband art thou to me.
So he let him go: then she said, A bloody husband thou art, because of the circumcision.

 

[Wansvic]

My point is; the disciples healed and did miracles before Pentecost, were they not doing all these by the Holy spirit? Did the gift of healing only become a gift after the Pentecost even though they healed before Pentecost?

The Holy Ghost dwelt with the disciples prior to Pentecost. At Pentecost and continuing until Jesus' second coming converted NT Christians have the Holy Ghost dwelling inside their body.

And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you." John 14:16-18

 

[Noose]

The Holy Ghost dwelt with the disciples prior to Pentecost. At Pentecost and continuing until Jesus' second coming converted NT Christians have the Holy Ghost dwelling inside their body.

And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you." John 14:16-18

1.I was talking about the healing and the miracles before Pentecost, were they also gifts from the Holy spirit?
If yes, the gifts are not a church thing because they started before the church (Pentecost) according to you

2. Years after Pentecost, Paul and the rest were still waiting for someone, who were they waiting for?:

Heb 10: 25not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching. ......
36You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised. 37For,
“In just a little while, he who is coming will come and will not delay.”