Thief in the Night-- Pretrib or Second Coming?

[Joey1964]

If you want to know where the rapture idea comes from it is best to go back in history. It all started with the Schofield Bible. John Darby's pre-tribulational view of the rapture was picked up by a man named C.I. Scofield, who taught the view in the footnotes of his Scofield Reference Bible, which was widely distributed in England and America. Many Protestants who read the Scofield Reference Bible accepted what its footnotes said and adopted the rapture doctrine, even though no Christian had heard of it in the previous 1800 years of Church history. Like I mentioned in a previous post. I myself personally have never heard of all these weird interpretations of the Bible until I was exposed to American TV in the 90's.

 

[cv5]

If you want to know where the rapture idea comes from it is best to go back in history. It all started with the Schofield Bible. John Darby's pre-tribulational view of the rapture was picked up by a man named C.I. Scofield, who taught the view in the footnotes of his Scofield Reference Bible, which was widely distributed in England and America. Many Protestants who read the Scofield Reference Bible accepted what its footnotes said and adopted the rapture doctrine, even though no Christian had heard of it in the previous 1800 years of Church history. Like I mentioned in a previous post. I myself personally have never heard of all these weird interpretations of the Bible until I was exposed to American TV in the 90's.

Thoroughly debunked on many many rapture threads here on CC.
The Scripture itself supports the rapture. Do John and Paul's writings predate Darby? Of course they do.

 

[Joey1964]

Thoroughly debunked on many many rapture threads here on CC.
The Scripture itself supports the rapture. Do John and Paul's writings predate Darby? Of course they do.

I stand with my statement. The only thing that has been thoroughly debunked are the lies and the deceipt of CI Schofield. I am glad that I was not exposed to this until I was well into my thirties. I am grateful that I went to a church where we were taught the truth of the Bible. Once grounded in the truth you will not fall for heresies and money making schemes that seem to flourish in the western world today.

 

[presidente]

The thing is.......the pre tribbers are batting a consistent 1000. Seriously it's not much of a contest.

Batting 1000? What is the evidence for pretrib? Can you show any passage that puts the rapture before the tribulation? Why is this rapture noticeably missing from the opening chapters of the book of Revelation, Matthew 24, and other passages?

And how is pre-trib reconcilable at all II Thessalonians 1? Pre-trib has Jesus coming back for the church, then return 7 years later executing judgment. II Thessalonians 1 has Jesus returning to give the church rest when he returns executing judgment on them that know not God who do not obey the Gospel, when He comes to be glorified in the saints.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

And how is pre-trib reconcilable at all II Thessalonians 1? Pre-trib has Jesus coming back for the church, then return 7 years later executing judgment. II Thessalonians 1 has Jesus returning to give the church rest when he returns executing judgment on them that know not God who do not obey the Gospel, when He comes to be glorified in the saints.

No, in 2Thess1, "... [rest with us] in the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire [see similar language Lam2:3-4] inflicting vengeance on them that know not God...," it is referring to the time period (starting with seal #1... but certainly the time-frame of the "7 angels" with the 7 trumpets judgments unfolding upon the earth and then 7 vials of judgment being poured out)... the same ppl ("them") being spoken of in chpt 1, here, are the ones to whom, in chpt 2, Paul speaks of regarding how "God shall send to them strong delusion that they should believe the lie / the false / the pseudei..." during that very same time-period: the specific, limited time-period preceding and leading up to His Second Coming to the earth FOR the earthly MK age (but FOLLOWING "our Rapture").

The mistake is thinking this occurs on a "singular 24-hr day" (the day of His return to the earth Rev19)... 1Th5:1-3 debunks such an idea, when understood in connection with these other passages (and more).

 

[presidente]

No, in 2Thess1, "... [rest with us] in the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire [see similar language Lam2:3-4] inflicting vengeance on them that know not God...," it is referring to the time period (starting with seal #1... but certainly the time-frame of the "7 angels" with the 7 trumpets judgments unfolding upon the earth and then 7 vials of judgment being poured out)... the same ppl ("them") being spoken of in chpt 1, here, are the ones to whom, in chpt 2, Paul speaks of regarding how "God shall send to them strong delusion that they should believe the lie / the false / the pseudei..." during that very same time-period: the specific, limited time-period preceding and leading up to His Second Coming to the earth FOR the earthly MK age (but FOLLOWING "our Rapture").

The mistake is thinking this occurs on a "singular 24-hr day" (the day of His return to the earth Rev19)... 1Th5:1-3 debunks such an idea, when understood in connection with these other passages (and more).

Your comment does not fit the wording of I Thessalonians 1, which describes what happens at Jesus coming, not the seven years leading up to it.

II Thessalonians 1

7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.


The problem with pre-trib is the total lack of evidence for it. What passage lays out a sequence of events that shows evidence for a pre-trib rapture? What scripture is there that indicates that there that indicates there are two comings (parousia) of Christ? Pretribbers try to explain scriptures around their pre-trib theory, but what evidence is there to justify postulating a pre-trib rapture to begin with.

Pre-tribbers have to take one verses about the parousia and saying it refers to an extra pre-trib rapture, and apply other verses about the parousia about the return of Christ.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Your comment does not fit the wording of I Thessalonians 1, which describes what happens at Jesus coming, not the seven years leading up to it.
II Thessalonians 1
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

The problem with pre-trib is the total lack of evidence for it. What passage lays out a sequence of events that shows evidence for a pre-trib rapture? What scripture is there that indicates that there that indicates there are two comings (parousia) of Christ? Pretribbers try to explain scriptures around their pre-trib theory, but what evidence is there to justify postulating a pre-trib rapture to begin with.

Pre-tribbers have to take one verses about the parousia and saying it refers to an extra pre-trib rapture, and apply other verses about the parousia about the return of Christ.

Your comment does not fit the wording of I Thessalonians 1, which describes what happens at Jesus coming, not the seven years leading up to it.

II Thessalonians 1

7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

In the Greek, there is no word "when" in verse 7.

The word "when" only shows up in v.10 with the "SHALL [future tense]" part, which is what will happen at His Second Coming to the earth (that is, vv.9-10 speaking of that).

Verse 7 states (per the Greek), "...[rest with us] in the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire inflicting vengeance on them that..." which is the time-period preceding His "return" to the earth Rev19. We see the same word "vengeance" used in Luke 18:8, saying, "AVENGE in quickness [noun]"... which is the same "in quickness [noun]" time period Rev1:1 speaks of when referring to what John would be "SHOWN" (1:1 / 4:1), corresponding also with 1:19c the "future" aspects of the Book (i.e. the "7-yr period" leading up to His return to the earth at Rev19); It starts with seal #1, i.e. the INITIAL "birth pang" (Matt24:4 / Mk13:5 "G5100 -tis-'A CERTAIN ONE') of many more "birth pangs" that will follow on from that one, over the course of some time.

The problem with pre-trib is the total lack of evidence for it. What passage lays out a sequence of events that shows evidence for a pre-trib rapture? What scripture is there that indicates that there that indicates there are two comings (parousia) of Christ? Pretribbers try to explain scriptures around their pre-trib theory, but what evidence is there to justify postulating a pre-trib rapture to begin with.

Pre-tribbers have to take one verses about the parousia and saying it refers to an extra pre-trib rapture, and apply other verses about the parousia about the return of Christ.

"parousia" means His "presence"... so depending on context as to WHERE it is speaking of, and of WHOM it pertains (whether "in the air," i.e. "OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM" up there v.1, which ONLY "the Church which is His body" will participate in this event; or whether speaking of "the MANIFESTATION OF His presence / parousia" when He wipes out the man of sin and "EVERY eye shall see Him," v.8b--And mind you, this follows the SAME pattern already having occurred back at the time of Jesus' TWO distinct ascensions: one ON FIRSTFRUIT / ON His Resurrection day, and then some "40 days" LATER in Acts 1 His "VISIBLE" ascension, which is how He will "so" return "in like manner" to the earth at Rev19)

 

[cv5]

Batting 1000? What is the evidence for pretrib? Can you show any passage that puts the rapture before the tribulation? Why is this rapture noticeably missing from the opening chapters of the book of Revelation, Matthew 24, and other passages?

And how is pre-trib reconcilable at all II Thessalonians 1? Pre-trib has Jesus coming back for the church, then return 7 years later executing judgment. II Thessalonians 1 has Jesus returning to give the church rest when he returns executing judgment on them that know not God who do not obey the Gospel, when He comes to be glorified in the saints.

Think about 1 Thessalonians 5:2 and 5:4 vs Rev 3:10. How can all of this the true at the same time? Trust me....we will not be around to suffer the tribulation.

 

[presidente]

In the Greek, there is no word "when" in verse 7.

I am no Greek expert, but it seems like a reasonable translation of 'en' there in context. Also, look at the first word of verse 10, ὅταν hotan, which translated as 'when.'

The word "when" only shows up in v.10 with the "SHALL [future tense]" part, which is what will happen at His Second Coming to the earth (that is, vv.9-10 speaking of that).

It's aorist subjunctive active in Greek. But so what. It's was all in the future when Paul wrote it, so what point are you making?

Verse 7 states (per the Greek), "...[rest with us] in the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire inflicting vengeance on them that..." which is the time-period preceding His "return" to the earth Rev19.

This stuff happens:
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

We see the same word "vengeance" used in Luke 18:8, saying, "AVENGE in quickness [noun]"... which is the same "in quickness [noun]" time period Rev1:1 speaks of when referring to what John would be "SHOWN" (1:1 / 4:1), corresponding also with 1:19c the "future" aspects of the Book (i.e. the "7-yr period" leading up to His return to the earth at Rev19); It starts with seal #1, i.e. the INITIAL "birth pang" (Matt24:4 / Mk13:5 "G5100 -tis-'A CERTAIN ONE') of many more "birth pangs" that will follow on from that one, over the course of some time.

Do you see any actual ___ evidence__ of pretrib in all this here? Your just trying to figure out how to fit verses into a pretrib scenario.



"parousia" means His "presence"... so depending on context as to WHERE it is speaking of, and of WHOM it pertains (whether "in the air," i.e. "OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM" up there v.1, which ONLY "the Church which is His body" will participate in this event; or whether speaking of "the MANIFESTATION OF His presence / parousia" when He wipes out the man of sin and "EVERY eye shall see Him," v.8b--And mind you, this follows the SAME pattern already having occurred back at the time of Jesus' TWO distinct ascensions: one ON FIRSTFRUIT / ON His Resurrection day, and then some "40 days" LATER in Acts 1 His "VISIBLE" ascension, which is how He will "so" return "in like manner" to the earth at Rev19)[/QUOTE]

 

[cv5]

Batting 1000? What is the evidence for pretrib? Can you show any passage that puts the rapture before the tribulation? Why is this rapture noticeably missing from the opening chapters of the book of Revelation, Matthew 24, and other passages?

And how is pre-trib reconcilable at all II Thessalonians 1? Pre-trib has Jesus coming back for the church, then return 7 years later executing judgment. II Thessalonians 1 has Jesus returning to give the church rest when he returns executing judgment on them that know not God who do not obey the Gospel, when He comes to be glorified in the saints.

Put another way: How can any Christian feel comforted (1 Thes 5:11) supposedly knowing the time of the initiation of the DOTL (evidently your view of v. 4)?

All of these passages deal with same idea: rest, comfort and confidence that we will not be on the earth as "earth dwellers" during the beggining 7 years of the DOTL aka Tribulation.

Furthermore in your view it seems that Christians WILL know the time of the start of the tribulation. How could that be comforting?

 

[cv5]

I am no Greek expert, but it seems like a reasonable translation of 'en' there in context. Also, look at the first word of verse 10, ὅταν hotan, which translated as 'when.'


It's aorist subjunctive active in Greek. But so what. It's was all in the future when Paul wrote it, so what point are you making?



This stuff happens:
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.



Do you see any actual ___ evidence__ of pretrib in all this here? Your just trying to figure out how to fit verses into a pretrib scenario.



"parousia" means His "presence"... so depending on context as to WHERE it is speaking of, and of WHOM it pertains (whether "in the air," i.e. "OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM" up there v.1, which ONLY "the Church which is His body" will participate in this event; or whether speaking of "the MANIFESTATION OF His presence / parousia" when He wipes out the man of sin and "EVERY eye shall see Him," v.8b--And mind you, this follows the SAME pattern already having occurred back at the time of Jesus' TWO distinct ascensions: one ON FIRSTFRUIT / ON His Resurrection day, and then some "40 days" LATER in Acts 1 His "VISIBLE" ascension, which is how He will "so" return "in like manner" to the earth at Rev19)

[/QUOTE]
I am frankly amazed that supposedly mature Churches are NOT pre-trib.

I am just curious.......are all of your Church members post-trib? Or is there a mix?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

TDW: Verse 7 states (per the Greek), "...[rest with us] in the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire inflicting vengeance on them that..." which is the time-period preceding His "return" to the earth Rev19.

This stuff happens:
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

"When he shall come to be glorified in..." yes, is His Second Coming to the earth; but the part of the sentence saying "...[admired in all them having believed] BECAUSE 'the testimony of us to you' was believed in that day" refers to that future, specific, limited time-period leading up to His Return to the earth Rev19, i.e. DURING the trib yrs.

Everywhere in scripture where "IN THAT DAY" and the phrase "the DOTL" are used in close proximity (i.e. same context), it is referring to the SAME time-period; and such is the case here in chpts 1 & 2 where these two phrases are again used in the same context.

They both are referring to that future time-period (the 7-yr Trib--FOLLOWING "our Rapture");

IOW, "[to be admired] in all those having believed, because 'the testimony of us to you' WAS BELIEVED 'IN THAT DAY'" refers not to the Thessalonians' own "belief" (past and present, in their own time), but to that future time-period preceding His "return" to the earth, but following "our Rapture" (THOSE people--the ones who WILL be coming to faith in the Trib yrs)... same time-period 2Th2:2 is being "claimed" by false conveyors "is already here / is present" (i.e. the judgments... of the Tribulation period, aka "the DOTL"--first aspect: "IN THE NIGHT"--which Paul says will ARRIVE "exactly like [hosper]" the initial "birth pang" that comes upon a woman with child, and that does not have its beginning at Christ's "return" to the earth moment Rev19); same time-period also that "God shall send to them [i.e. to certain others] strong delusion SO THAT they should believe the LIE / the false / the pseudei...,"

...that is, Paul is CONTRASTING the two distinct / opposite "beliefs" that ppl WILL be coming to FOLLOWING "our Rapture" (when they are in the Trib yrs)

(Note: the time-frame for the "God shall send to them strong delusion" is when they are IN the Trib years, aka "the DOTL"... same time period that Paul says of the OTHERS "[and to be admired] in all those having believed, because 'the testimony of us to you' was believed IN THAT DAY"--this is the wording according to the Greek phrasing. Not the Thessalonians' "belief" being spoken of here.)

Again, wherever "the DOTL" and "IN THAT DAY" are used in the same contexts, they refer to that SAME future time-period.
Such is the case with their use together here in 2 Thessalonians. = )

 

[cv5]

"When he shall come to be glorified in..." yes, is His Second Coming to the earth; but the part of the sentence saying "...[admired in all them having believed] BECAUSE 'the testimony of us to you' was believed in that day" refers to that future, specific, limited time-period leading up to His Return to the earth Rev19, i.e. DURING the trib yrs.

Everywhere in scripture where "IN THAT DAY" and the phrase "the DOTL" are used in close proximity (i.e. same context), it is referring to the SAME time-period; and such is the case here in chpts 1 & 2 where these two phrases are again used in the same context.

They both are referring to that future time-period (the 7-yr Trib--FOLLOWING "our Rapture");

IOW, "[to be admired] in all those having believed, because 'the testimony of us to you' WAS BELIEVED 'IN THAT DAY'" refers not to the Thessalonians' own "belief" (past and present, in their own time), but to that future time-period preceding His "return" to the earth, but following "our Rapture" (THOSE people--the ones who WILL be coming to faith in the Trib yrs)... same time-period 2Th2:2 is being "claimed" by false conveyors "is already here / is present" (i.e. the judgments... of the Tribulation period, aka "the DOTL"--first aspect: "IN THE NIGHT"--which Paul says will ARRIVE "exactly like [hosper]" the initial "birth pang" that comes upon a woman with child, and that does not have its beginning at Christ's "return" to the earth moment Rev19); same time-period also that "God shall send to them [i.e. others] strong delusion SO THAT they should believe the LIE / the false / the pseudei...,"

...that is, Paul is CONTRASTING the two distinct / opposite "beliefs" that ppl WILL be coming to FOLLOWING "our Rapture"

(Note: the time-frame for the "God shall send to them strong delusion" is when they are IN the Trib years, aka "the DOTL"... same time period that Paul says of the OTHERS "[and to be admired] in all those having believed, because 'the testimony of us to you' was believed IN THAT DAY"--this is the wording according to the Greek phrasing.)

Again, wherever "the DOTL" and "IN THAT DAY" are used in the same contexts, they refer to that SAME future time-period.
Such is the case with their use together here in 2 Thessalonians. = )

Absolutely correct. That is a most interesting passage. Lending credence once again to the pre-trib doctrine.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Absolutely correct. That is a most interesting passage. Lending credence once again to the pre-trib doctrine.

Yeah; and Paul talks about the event of our Rapture something like 8-10 times in these two Thessalonians epistles.

It's in 2Th2 that he becomes even more explicit as to its timing / sequence in relation to that time period known as "the day of the Lord" (as you are aware); the time period falsely being claimed by false conveyors (or potentially ever could be claimed) to be "already here / is present".

The misinterpretation of this passage in the second chapter enters when (among other things) people think that the thing which "[____] will not be until / unless..." speaks of the rapture event of v.1, rather than what it actually (grammatically) refers to, which is the TIME PERIOD having just been referred to in verse 2, in the immediately preceding verse (they are not identical things, but distinct)... and only after v.3 (3a) starts out with that, does it conclude in its connection to the v.1 Subject (our Rapture), in v.3b (with v.3c ending the verse).

 

[cv5]

Yeah; and Paul talks about the event of our Rapture something like 8-10 times in these two Thessalonians epistles.

It's in 2Th2 that he becomes even more explicit as to its timing / sequence in relation to that time period known as "the day of the Lord" (as you are aware); the time period falsely being claimed by false conveyors (or potentially ever could be claimed) to be "already here / is present".

The misinterpretation of this passage in the second chapter enters when (among other things) people think that the thing which "[____] will not be until / unless..." speaks of the rapture event of v.1, rather than what it actually (grammatically) refers to, which is the TIME PERIOD having just been referred to in verse 2, in the immediately preceding verse (they are not identical things, but distinct)... and only after v.3 (3a) starts out with that, does it conclude in its connection to the v.1 Subject (our Rapture), in v.3b (with v.3c ending the verse).

For sure.

Furthermore, it is inconceivable that "comfort", "rest" and "relief" (all terms Paul uses) have anything whatsoever to do with the 7 year tribulation. Because they do not. These terms all relate to the rapture aka the snatching of the Bride before the tribulation ever begins.

 

[presidente]

Put another way: How can any Christian feel comforted (1 Thes 5:11) supposedly knowing the time of the initiation of the DOTL (evidently your view of v. 4)?

All of these passages deal with same idea: rest, comfort and confidence that we will not be on the earth as "earth dwellers" during the beggining 7 years of the DOTL aka Tribulation.

Furthermore in your view it seems that Christians WILL know the time of the start of the tribulation. How could that be comforting?

Since there is no teaching that Jesus comes back twice, why would any of the original readers of Revelation squeeze in some kind of rapture into the first part of the book that isn't there, and assume all those references to 'saints' in the book isn't about them.... us.... doesn't include them? Why should we impose a pre-trib scenario which has no support from this or any text of scripture into the passage?

Your question makes me think how coddled and cushy the life of us western modern Christians is. Do you find no comfort in a book that tells that saints will be martyred on a massive scale, but Christ will return, avenge them, resurrect them and bring about a glorious state in which they will live? When Paul wrote of the rapture and resurrection he said 'comfort one another with these words.'

 

[presidente]

"When he shall come to be glorified in..." yes, is His Second Coming to the earth; but the part of the sentence saying "...[admired in all them having believed] BECAUSE 'the testimony of us to you' was believed in that day" refers to that future, specific, limited time-period leading up to His Return to the earth Rev19, i.e. DURING the trib yrs.

What I don't get is why you work hard to squeeze scriptures into a pre-trib rubric to begin with. Where is the Biblical evidence for a pre-trib rapture in the first place to motivate you to try to make it fit? I can understand if you had a couple of actual scriptures that you needed to see how they fit together. But trying to fit scripture to this theory that is so external to scripture... I don't get that.

Do you have scripture that says that the 'day' is a seven year time period and that the rapture occurs first? If the 'day' refers to the seven year time period, then you have to scramble to make it fit with chapter 2.

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
....

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,


The coming of our Lord doesn't occur until the man of sin is revealed. And 'that wicked' is destroyed at the brightness of Jesus coming.

There is no evidence that Jesus comes back two more times. Pre-trib turning this into two comings of Jesus, or one long year coming of Jesus, is just unwarranted.

1. No where do we see scripture lay out a timeline or scenario with pretrib in it.
2. Paul writes about the coming of Christ as if it were one event.
3. The dead are raised at Jesus coming, the rapture occurs at Jesus coming, and 'that wicked' is destroyed at the brightness of His coming.

Pre-tribbers assume pre-trib and then try to interpret passages around a preconceived pre-trib scenario, which they so often treat as axiomatic truth as if it were scripture, without giving scripture to support it. There is a difference between offering Biblical evidence for pre-trib and presenting some way of interpreting a passage to try to make it fit with a pre-trib scenario.

Attempts at evidence for pre-trib are loose or inferential type arguments. There is a verse that says we are not appointed unto wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. Because there is a reference to the bowls of wrath in Revelation... pretribbers argue that 'not appointed unto wrath' must mean a rapture before the tribulation. But that would mean that the tribulational saints are 'appointed unto wrath' by that logic. But the saints in Revelation are presented in a positive light, as saints that endure. They overcome the Devil by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony.

Then 'come up hither'... spoken to John... is supposed to be hyperallegorically to mean the church is going to be raptured.... according to those who are supposed to hold to literal interpretation.

But where is the passage that shows a rapture occurring before the tribulation, or even teaches it? To justify treating the coming of Jesus as two events, you need to have some actual evidence.... not the ability to try to reinterpret passages to fit with an extra-Biblical theory.

IOW, "[to be admired] in all those having believed, because 'the testimony of us to you' WAS BELIEVED 'IN THAT DAY'" refers not to the Thessalonians' own "belief" (past and present, in their own time), but to that future time-period preceding His "return" to the earth, but following "our Rapture" (THOSE people--the ones who WILL be coming to faith in the Trib yrs)...

He already clarifies that his readers would receive rest/relief at the Lord's coming. He doesn't break believers down into different time periods. Jesus comes to be admired by them that believe, and the Thessalonians had believed.

 

[presidente]

For sure.

Furthermore, it is inconceivable that "comfort", "rest" and "relief" (all terms Paul uses) have anything whatsoever to do with the 7 year tribulation. Because they do not. These terms all relate to the rapture aka the snatching of the Bride before the tribulation ever begins.

Can you show me where the Bible teaches that the bride will be snatched up before the tribulation begins?

 

[cv5]

Can you show me where the Bible teaches that the bride will be snatched up before the tribulation begins?

Already have. Probably several dozens of times by now.

 

[cv5]

Since there is no teaching that Jesus comes back twice, why would any of the original readers of Revelation squeeze in some kind of rapture into the first part of the book that isn't there, and assume all those references to 'saints' in the book isn't about them.... us.... doesn't include them? Why should we impose a pre-trib scenario which has no support from this or any text of scripture into the passage?

Your question makes me think how coddled and cushy the life of us western modern Christians is. Do you find no comfort in a book that tells that saints will be martyred on a massive scale, but Christ will return, avenge them, resurrect them and bring about a glorious state in which they will live? When Paul wrote of the rapture and resurrection he said 'comfort one another with these words.'

"why would any of the original readers of Revelation squeeze in some kind of rapture into the first part of the book that isn't there"

1) its not the readers who "squeezed it in there".....it was the Writer, the Holy Ghost.
2) the rapture cannot not be there.....because it is there...see the 24 Elders, described as to their identity in clear unequivocal terms.

Your problem is linear thinking. The Bible narrative demands an eastern thought process and concept.