Thief in the Night-- Pretrib or Second Coming?

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presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
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#41
You do understand that the spirits of the righteous dead are with Jesus now right?
They receive resurrected physical bodies on the day of the resurrection when they return with him.


Those who are still alive on earth at that time are translated following them. He comes for them.
The dead with rise up at the return of Christ. Christ did not just appear in a new body in heaven at His resurrection. His body was no longer in the tomb because He was out of it. He had risen from the dead. Christ is the first fruits of the resurrection.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
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#42
You do understand that the spirits of the righteous dead are with Jesus now right?
They receive resurrected physical bodies on the day of the resurrection when they return with him.


Those who are still alive on earth at that time are translated following them. He comes for them.
The dead RISE. I Thessalonians 4:16. Look up the Greek word. The saints rise and meet the Lord as He descends.
 

Inquisitor

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2022
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#43
You do understand that the spirits of the righteous dead are with Jesus now right?
They receive resurrected physical bodies on the day of the resurrection when they return with him.


Those who are still alive on earth at that time are translated following them. He comes for them.
Do you have some verses that say our spirits, go to be with the Lord after death?
 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
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#45
Do you have some verses that say our spirits, go to be with the Lord after death?
Phil 1:
21 For to me, living is Christ and dying is gain. 22 If I am to live in the flesh, that means fruitful labour for me; and I do not know which I prefer. 23 I am hard pressed between the two: my desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better; 24 but to remain in the flesh is more necessary for you. 25 Since I am convinced of this, I know that I will remain and continue with all of you for your progress and joy in faith,

2 Cor 5:
8 Yes, we do have confidence, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9 So whether we are at home or away, we make it our aim to please him.

Rev 6:

9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slaughtered for the word of God and for the testimony they had given; 10 they cried out with a loud voice, ‘Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long will it be before you judge and avenge our blood on the inhabitants of the earth?’ 11 They were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number would be complete both of their fellow-servants and of their brothers and sisters, who were soon to be killed as they themselves had been killed.
 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
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#47
The dead with rise up at the return of Christ. Christ did not just appear in a new body in heaven at His resurrection. His body was no longer in the tomb because He was out of it. He had risen from the dead. Christ is the first fruits of the resurrection.
Why are you explaining this to me?
I don't know where you get the impression that I have denied any of it.
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
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#48
One he takes us, the other HE return with US
 

presidente

Senior Member
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#49
One he takes us, the other HE return with US
In I Thessalonians we meet the Lord in the clouds as He descends. There is no need to postulate two second comings. Where is tge evidence for it?

There is no rapture mentioned before the gret tribulation in Matthew 24. There is no rapture of the church mentioned in Revelation 3 or 4.

Pretrib teaches Jesus returns to rapture the church then 7 years later returns and faces them that oppose God and destroys the man of sin.

But in II Thessalonians 1, Jesus returns, giving the church rest, executing vengeance on them that know not God when He comes to be glorified in the saints.

In I Thessalonians 4, the rapture is set at the parousia, the coning if tge Lord. In II Thessalonians 2, the man of sin passage, tge man of sin is destroyed at the brightness of His coming.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
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#50
In pre-tribulational rapture teaching, is Jesus supposed to come as a 'thief in the night' at the rapture, the second coming, or both?


I don't see multiple returns of Christ in scripture, so I can't make the distinction since I don't see it in scripture. But what does pre-trib eschatology say about this?
I appreciate the question (pre-tribber here :) ), and I must say that I also appreciate the manner in which the question is posed. = )

I gather you would like to understand the pretrib teaching on this particular point, whether or not you ultimately end up agreeing with the viewpoint and explanation.



Here's the pretrib understanding and teaching regarding the phrase, "____ so cometh as a thief in the night":

The phrase is speaking neither of the rapture event / point in time, nor of His Second Coming to the earth point in time.



When Jesus says (Rev16:15-16), "Behold, I come as a thief." it is speaking of His Personal Bodily return to this earth at the Armageddon time-slot at the end of the 7-year period commonly called "the tribulation period," commonly referred to as His Second Coming. Note that no "in the night" phrase is added to the sentence when referring to Jesus Himself, here in this passage.


The distinct phrase "the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night," it is speaking neither of Jesus' Own Personal Bodily return to the earth at the Armageddon time-slot NOR of our Rapture in the air event / point in time.

Rather, "the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night" refers to the precise moment that the earthly-located TIME PERIOD known as "the day of the Lord" arrives and commences to unfold upon the earth (with the first seal Rev6, aka the initial "birth pang" of the "beginning of birth pangs" Jesus spoke of in Matt24:4-8, esp. v.4 "tis-G5100 "a certain one" / Mk13:5-8, esp. v.4 (ditto) / "BPs" described also in Lk21:8-11).

All of the above, including both distinct phrases regarding "thief," take place following "our Rapture" event, which itself involves and pertains to the "in the twinkling of an eye" moment at which point we, the Church which is His body, are "changed / glorified" (PRE-trib, or you could say, PRE-"DOTL-arrival") and then are snatched / caught-up / raptured together to the meeting of the Lord "in the air" aka "our episynagoges unto Him".
The phrase "in the twinkling of an eye" refers to "the precise moment when one day turns into the next, when the sun is eight-degrees below the horizon, at sundown." In prophetic terms, "days" (a day) would start at sundown (rather than at midnight, like we speak of in our own clock-reference). Following that point in time is when earthly-located "day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night" arrives to unfold upon the earth with its judgments over the course of some time (that is, "in the night," that is, the tribulation-period aspect of the overall time period), before then Jesus Himself then returns to the earth "as a thief[.]" at the Armageddon time-slot (Rev16:15-16, Rev19, Matt24:29-31 / Isa27:12-13,9).



So from the above explanation, the phrase "the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night" speaks neither of Jesus at our Rapture point in time nor of His Second Coming to the earth at the Armageddon point in the chronology. Rather, it speaks of the arrival of an earthly-located time-period, which by the way extends all the way from the beginning of the 7-yr tribulation period with its "judgments" unfolding, clear through to the end of the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom age, the "blessing" aspect of it. Our Rapture event precedes both of these (that's the "pre-trib" perspective you are asking about), meaning both of the phrases "the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night" and "Behold, I come as a thief." (with no "in the night" phrase added when speaking of Jesus Himself, returning to the earth at the Armageddon time-slot), both of these phrases refer to things which follow our Rapture event.

Hope that helps you see "the pre-trib teaching" on this particular point. = )

Thank you for the opportunity of laying it out, and I'm happy to try to address any questions that might arise in anyone's minds based on the above explanation, though it may take me some time to get back to it, as I am swamped with work, of late. Will do my best. = )
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
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#51
So from the above explanation, the phrase "the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night" speaks neither of Jesus at our Rapture point in time nor of His Second Coming to the earth at the Armageddon point in the chronology. Rather, it speaks of the arrival of an earthly-located time-period, which by the way extends all the way from the beginning of the 7-yr tribulation period with its "judgments" unfolding, clear through to the end of the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom age, the "blessing" aspect of it. Our Rapture event precedes both of these (that's the "pre-trib" perspective you are asking about), meaning both of the phrases "the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night" and "Behold, I come as a thief." (with no "in the night" phrase added when speaking of Jesus Himself, returning to the earth at the Armageddon time-slot), both of these phrases refer to things which follow our Rapture event.

Hope that helps you see "the pre-trib teaching" on this particular point. = )

Thank you for the opportunity of laying it out, and I'm happy to try to address any questions that might arise in anyone's minds based on the above explanation, though it may take me some time to get back to it, as I am swamped with work, of late. Will do my best. = )
If you think the 'thief' time period started 7 years before the Second coming, why would their be an announcement, "Look, I come as a thief..." in Revelation 16:15, after the sixth bowl of wrath, if they were already in the 'theif' timeframe. If everything was already in the 'thief', then why would the coming as a thief aspect of Jesus' Second coming need to be announced?

Also, the reference to the thief coming in Matthew 24 is mentioned after the tribulation of those days, the great tribulation, and the coming of the Son of Man which follows it. There is no reference to an extra second coming earlier in the passage? Why isn't that referenced in Matthew 24, or any other passage. Why isn't there a passage that actually shows the pre-trib rapture occurring as a distinct event from the second coming or any passage that actually teaches that if pre-trib is true?
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
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#52
If you think the 'thief' time period started 7 years before the Second coming, why would their be an announcement, "Look, I come as a thief..." in Revelation 16:15, after the sixth bowl of wrath, if they were already in the 'theif' timeframe. If everything was already in the 'thief', then why would the coming as a thief aspect of Jesus' Second coming need to be announced?
I grasp the gist of your question here, but allow me to make a point which is being missed.

It is not as though the "come / cometh as a thief" refers to the entire time period itself (or to His Personal presence to the earth FOR the MK age as though that time-period following would be a "thief" time-period either, depending on which passage); but rather refers to the ARRIVAL of either (depending).

--"come / comes as a thief" refers to the arrival point of either, not to the duration of the time-period which follows either.


Also, the reference to the thief coming in Matthew 24 is mentioned after the tribulation of those days, the great tribulation, and the coming of the Son of Man which follows it.
The reference to "thief" in Matthew 24 (vv.36-51) is talking about when "the Son of man cometh" (Jesus Himself in His Own Personal Bodily return to the earth at the Armageddon time-slot FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom age); which Matthew 24 passage is basically parallel to the Luke 12:36-37,38,40,42-44,45-48 passage, which itself starts out with the phrase "when he will return from the wedding" i.e. as an already-wed Bridegroom... THEN the meal (G347), which "meal" is the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom (called elsewhere "the wedding FEAST / supper / festivities"--that is, on the earth).

There is no reference to an extra second coming earlier in the passage? Why isn't that referenced in Matthew 24, or any other passage.
Because that is not the Subject Jesus is addressing in Matthew 24; He's only covering His Second Coming to the earth and that specific, limited time-period which immediately precedes and leads up to that, i.e. the tribulation period that starts with the seals / beginning of "birth pangs" and what follows on from those, in His Olivet Discourse, aka the trib... (only about 12 verses in Lk cover the 70ad events, now past from our perspective).

ALL of Matthew 24:4 and following (clear through to end of chpt 25) is speaking of events FOLLOWING "our Rapture". Our Rapture simply was not the Subject Jesus was addressing there. = )

Why isn't there a passage that actually shows the pre-trib rapture occurring as a distinct event from the second coming or any passage that actually teaches that if pre-trib is true?
There is.

But (for one thing) if one defines "the day of the Lord" incorrectly, like say, mis-defining it as the moment of His "return" to the earth / 2nd Coming at the Armageddon time-slot (Rev19), then one will misconstrue things being conveyed where that Subject (Rapture) IS being addressed, elsewhere (not in the Olivet Discourse at all)... as many tend to do. = )



Hope that helps you see the pre-trib perspective a little better. = )
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Aug 3, 2018
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#53
(only about 12 verses in Lk cover the 70ad events, now past from our perspective).
Mis-spoke / mis-typed here... should read: "only about 12 verses in Lk21 [of the Olivet Discourse] cover the 70ad events..."





(don't want anyone to confuse what I wrote about "Lk12"--about the END of trib--in previous post, with what I'm saying here about "Lk 21 -- Olivet Discourse, some 12 verses covering the 70ad events now past from our perspective])
 

Blade

Well-known member
Nov 19, 2019
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#55
In pre-tribulational rapture teaching, is Jesus supposed to come as a 'thief in the night' at the rapture, the second coming, or both?


I don't see multiple returns of Christ in scripture, so I can't make the distinction since I don't see it in scripture. But what does pre-trib eschatology say about this?
Thief in the night.... the way I see it is Christ comes as a thief does yet we know Christ is no thief. See the thief comes you never see him come and go. This is what it will be when He comes. It will as if a thief came but Christ came took what was HIS something that is not part of this world. This world is not their home so He comes takes whats His and goes.

Not here to prove anything see I can't. In 50 years of being with Him I have yet to find one believer prove pre or mid or post. I have come across those that have studied the word..wow so much and have gone home now. He said on video "I am post trib BUT if Christ comes now I am ready". Did Christ say He will come back and receive us unto Himself so where He is we will be. HOW this gets tossed out not talked about I don't know. Where is He? At His Fathers house ( to speak simple). He made us a place. So unless He is a lair He will come back get us take us to where He is. Where I am you will be. Its not where you are on earth is where I will be.

Then I read Paul telling them you didn't miss Him. The He will come in the clouds (does not say the world will see Him) the dead will rise and don't worry we will also go with them caught up (raptured) together to meet Christ in the air to be with Him forever. No where did it say angels gather us nor then Christ sets foot on the earth. See man adds to Gods word. Man says those match.. as if the sweet holy Spirit just left it out or forgot. Then who are we to say there can't be a caught up when its clearly written? What we tell the GREAT I AM ..ok you can take one or two people but no.. you can't take millions..no we won't believe that. Thats just what some do.

So since I can't prove pre trib mid trib or post nor can anyone else then I just take Him at His word and live in this moment for Him watching for Him now. Now is when He will come. Well no where in the word was I promised tomorrow so I watch and ready now. What no one will ever tell you nor can they if you are not watching not ready you will go anyway? So yeah I LOVE thinking about Him every moment watching for Him watching how I live.. what else is there than to always think about the one that loves me most?

He is coming.. caught up will happen no one can disprove this. He went to His Fathers house and will back for us so where at His Fathers house we will be with Him. He can't lie...just like a old Jewish wedding. And yes 300-400 ad they preached about (anyone can search read those see the scrolls) where this hymn writer wrote about Jesus coming (caught up) before the great tribulation. Which only proves they talked preached about it. Thats all that means haha.

So this is what I believe and why. I can't say it strong enough. The greatest moments I have had with the lord the wonders He shown me (Father forgive me not to boast) is when I do what I am saying here. That is I read His going Home... I read about Caught up and I don't add to this nor take anything way. So I just no matter what I just believe. He can't lie we do He never does..He can't.

Again not here to prove anything. Just saying believe what its written. I never had a "caught up" rapture dream. I did have dream a few years ago where this ..I guess timer was going and had like 14 seconds left. I looked at the stars and... oh I have never in my life felt like this for Him..ever. In the dream I said "Hes coming, Hes really coming". It was a knowing I have never had in my life. There really is a place where we fully believe know with out any doubt what so ever. OH man I LOVED THAT!

Thats what I believe. He is really coming..when? NO CLUE! I don't care pre mid post.. I am ready now! I will never miss Him. Wish I had said this much better and pray I didn't offend anyone. Oh to just think about Jesus coming....
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
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#56
In pre-tribulational rapture teaching, is Jesus supposed to come as a 'thief in the night' at the rapture, the second coming, or both?


I don't see multiple returns of Christ in scripture, so I can't make the distinction since I don't see it in scripture. But what does pre-trib eschatology say about this?
You are mistaken. Jesus comes for the Church as a "thief".....for His Bride when the Father issues the command for the "harpazo" aka rapture, which occurs after the Son has completed Her dwelling place. This accords perfectly with the Jewish wedding sequence....first the harpazo, then the wedding FEAST seven days (YEARS) after the intimate nuptuals.

Jhn 14:2
“In My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Jhn 14:3
“And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

Rev 3:3
“Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.

Rev 16:15
“Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.”


On the other hand, it is the DOTL comes as thief in the night.

2Pe 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.

The difference is obvious: "the night" always refers to the 70th week of Daniel tribulation judgments. That time of God's wrath that we are assured, as the holy Bride, to be exempt from.

Rev 3:10
“Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
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#57
Yes.



Brother @Nehemiah6 did a pretty good job of explaining, but for the sake of redundance, we can rinse and repeat.

The Bride will be attending the wedding in Heaven before she returns to Earth with Jesus.
She returns to Earth with Jesus after the Tribulation. She was obviously not on Earth with those going through Tribulation if she has attended the Marriage and is now returning with Him...

Revelation 19
7Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
10And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Jude 1
14And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, 15To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

The Rapture Event is described in Thessalonians...

1 Thessalonians 4
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Absolutely correct. The Bride accompanies the Lord Jesus BACK to the earth as an already married spouse.
THEN proceeds the Second Coming.....in Glory.


The Church is (and has been for seven years!) in heaven. As is supported by Rev ch 4 & 5 (the 24 elders).
This group unerringly identified as the Church, the Bride, the Body. Replete with white robes, crowns and thrones. From every tribe tongue people and nation.

Rev 4:4
Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and on the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white robes; and they had crowns of gold on their heads.


Rev 5:9
And they sang a new song, saying:

“You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,

Rev 5:10
And have made us kings and priests to our God;
And we shall reign on the earth.”
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
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#58
In I Thessalonians we meet the Lord in the clouds as He descends. There is no need to postulate two second comings. Where is tge evidence for it?

There is no rapture mentioned before the gret tribulation in Matthew 24. There is no rapture of the church mentioned in Revelation 3 or 4.

Pretrib teaches Jesus returns to rapture the church then 7 years later returns and faces them that oppose God and destroys the man of sin.

But in II Thessalonians 1, Jesus returns, giving the church rest, executing vengeance on them that know not God when He comes to be glorified in the saints.

In I Thessalonians 4, the rapture is set at the parousia, the coning if tge Lord. In II Thessalonians 2, the man of sin passage, tge man of sin is destroyed at the brightness of His coming.
Study the Jewish wedding ceremony. That is the key to rightly understanding the rapture.
 
4

49

Guest
#59
How many times does this dead horse need to be beaten?
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
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#60
How many times does this dead horse need to be beaten?
The thing is.......the pre tribbers are batting a consistent 1000. Seriously it's not much of a contest.