There will be no Rapture!!!
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^ @2ndTimeIsTheCharm ,
Fair enough...
... but it comes across to me as though you have no explanation as to how Paul could say (addressed to the Church which is His body),
"... who died for us, that WHETHER WE MAY WATCH [*G1127] *OR* WHETHER WE MAY SLEEP [*G2518], we should live together with [G4862 - UNIONed-with] Him"
[*where both of these words are used in verse 6 and carry the SAME MEANING that they'd meant also in verse 6, per context--IOW, not referring to "sleep in DEATH" here!! like chpt 4 had used a diff Grk word for "sleep" and meant such / 'death']
[Paul says this for a reason!
]
Fair enough...
... but it comes across to me as though you have no explanation as to how Paul could say (addressed to the Church which is His body),
"... who died for us, that WHETHER WE MAY WATCH [*G1127] *OR* WHETHER WE MAY SLEEP [*G2518], we should live together with [G4862 - UNIONed-with] Him"
[*where both of these words are used in verse 6 and carry the SAME MEANING that they'd meant also in verse 6, per context--IOW, not referring to "sleep in DEATH" here!! like chpt 4 had used a diff Grk word for "sleep" and meant such / 'death']
[Paul says this for a reason!
]-
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This is one of the reasons I've changed slightly over time from a definite Pre trib, to a very possible Mid trib.
First we have to distinguish between tribulation, and the Great Tribulation. Christians have been persecuted throughout history and of course even today. But the GT is referred to as a specific 7 yr period of time, that supposedly kicks off at the signing of a new treaty, or global enforcement, of an existing treaty. We don't know exactly what this treaty will look like, or I've heard some say that it's already signed and waiting for the AC to enforce. Most Pre tribbers think it will involve the construction of the Temple in Jerusalem, or possibly even the sanctioning of animal sacrifices.
It may, but I have come to believe that the reception or activation of the mark is what is meant as the AC seating himself in the Temple of God, declaring himself to be god. Several places in Scripture says that NOW WE are the Temple of God. But it may be both things.
Anyway, for Christians, I believe the more horrible persecution will be during the FIRST 3.5 yrs of the GT. We will, as always, endure Satan's/man's wrath and persecution. I do not believe we will be here to endure GOD'S Wrath, which doesn't start until the 2nd 3.5 yrs on the world. Although those converted AFTER the rapture I think will be shielded from God's Wrath while still receiving Satan's/man's.
Now I fully admit I'm probably wrong on some of the above. But I can't see any scenario where the Church is still here after the AC seats himself on the throne.
First we have to distinguish between tribulation, and the Great Tribulation. Christians have been persecuted throughout history and of course even today. But the GT is referred to as a specific 7 yr period of time, that supposedly kicks off at the signing of a new treaty, or global enforcement, of an existing treaty. We don't know exactly what this treaty will look like, or I've heard some say that it's already signed and waiting for the AC to enforce. Most Pre tribbers think it will involve the construction of the Temple in Jerusalem, or possibly even the sanctioning of animal sacrifices.
It may, but I have come to believe that the reception or activation of the mark is what is meant as the AC seating himself in the Temple of God, declaring himself to be god. Several places in Scripture says that NOW WE are the Temple of God. But it may be both things.
Anyway, for Christians, I believe the more horrible persecution will be during the FIRST 3.5 yrs of the GT. We will, as always, endure Satan's/man's wrath and persecution. I do not believe we will be here to endure GOD'S Wrath, which doesn't start until the 2nd 3.5 yrs on the world. Although those converted AFTER the rapture I think will be shielded from God's Wrath while still receiving Satan's/man's.
Now I fully admit I'm probably wrong on some of the above. But I can't see any scenario where the Church is still here after the AC seats himself on the throne.
What does the rest of the verse say?
22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the [a]elect’s (CHOSEN ONES) sake those days will be shortened.
AS IN THE DAYS OF NOAH!!
The ONLY completely human flesh left on Earth, was Noah and his family's.
ALL flesh had corrupted itself.
Jesus says the same thing is going to happen. Genetically, there may be almost NO completely human flesh left! Surely with DNA changing shots and other methods, God's Temple is being corrupted.
22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the [a]elect’s (CHOSEN ONES) sake those days will be shortened.
AS IN THE DAYS OF NOAH!!
The ONLY completely human flesh left on Earth, was Noah and his family's.
ALL flesh had corrupted itself.
Jesus says the same thing is going to happen. Genetically, there may be almost NO completely human flesh left! Surely with DNA changing shots and other methods, God's Temple is being corrupted.
Another good question is if you are a post tribulation person where do those who live on into the millenium reign of Christ come from but are the from the sheep from the goat/sheep judgment in Mat 25. The goats go to eternal punishment but the sheep enter the kingdom in flesh and blood. So there can be no rapture/resurrection upon the Lord's return at end of the Tribulation.
Zechariah 14:16 Then every one that survives of all the nations that have come against Jerusalem shall go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of booths.
Zechariah 14:16 Then every one that survives of all the nations that have come against Jerusalem shall go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of booths.
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Only the saved are raptured.
It is a proof since it is clear what it says. But it is not the only one and they are all proof that those saved at rapture are removed from the earth.
Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.- - Rev 3:10
1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh. - Matt 25:1-13
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. - 1 These 4:13-18
There are more. Revelation is of course a big clue. Who are all those people in heaven from Revelation 4 through 19.
Thanks for admitting that Revelation 3:10 is a proof of the pre tribulation rapture.
It is a proof since it is clear what it says. But it is not the only one and they are all proof that those saved at rapture are removed from the earth.
Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.- - Rev 3:10
1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh. - Matt 25:1-13
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. - 1 These 4:13-18
There are more. Revelation is of course a big clue. Who are all those people in heaven from Revelation 4 through 19.
Thanks for admitting that Revelation 3:10 is a proof of the pre tribulation rapture.
isn't it funny, from Adam until DARBY, no one ever mentioned Pre-Trib Rapture until [[LESS THAN]] 200 years ago.
For almost 6,000 years, No Doctrine or Biblical mention of Pre-Trib Rapture.
But for 200 years, suddenly, people believe in Something that was NON-EXISTENT for 6,000 years.
seems kind of ignorant, doesn't it?
For almost 6,000 years, No Doctrine or Biblical mention of Pre-Trib Rapture.
But for 200 years, suddenly, people believe in Something that was NON-EXISTENT for 6,000 years.
seems kind of ignorant, doesn't it?
Well, perhaps so... but maybe I'm hoping that one day it will finally sink into your noggin (if I repeat it often enough) that the "inflicting vengeance on" (in 2Th1) is not what will take place merely on one lone "24-hr day".
[did your eyes glaze over when reading that sentence, above?? lol]
[did your eyes glaze over when reading that sentence, above?? lol]
Considering that pretribbers don't have any scripture that shows an actual return of Christ before the one the Bible talks about, why would we interpret II Thessalonians 1 in some kind of bizarre non-straight-forward, nonliteral way?
no one questioned how we get from Earth to God.
what is questioned, is this idea of pre-trib Rapture. And the Tribulation has been a Topic since Genesis [Enoch] and we see more in the Prophets, especially Daniel. So, the Tribulation, has been a Topic for 6,000 years.
and for that 6,000 years, NO such baloney Doctrine as Pre-Trib Rapture.
Know why?
Because, it's a mythical made up fantasy only believed by people who "truly" don't know GOD!
what is questioned, is this idea of pre-trib Rapture. And the Tribulation has been a Topic since Genesis [Enoch] and we see more in the Prophets, especially Daniel. So, the Tribulation, has been a Topic for 6,000 years.
and for that 6,000 years, NO such baloney Doctrine as Pre-Trib Rapture.
Know why?
Because, it's a mythical made up fantasy only believed by people who "truly" don't know GOD!
All of the times end time Tribulation is mentioned in the Old Testament + New Testament and never once a mention of pre-trib Rapture.
The Bible is 4,000 years of History + history to be made.
And no mention of pre-trib Rapture in each time Tribulation is mentioned.
Pretty obvious, there is no Pre-Trib Rapture, Darby, created a LIE that many here believe.
You believe a true blue Heretic, imagine that!
The Bible is 4,000 years of History + history to be made.
And no mention of pre-trib Rapture in each time Tribulation is mentioned.
Pretty obvious, there is no Pre-Trib Rapture, Darby, created a LIE that many here believe.
You believe a true blue Heretic, imagine that!
would that count as a rapture?
Paul said "caught uptogether with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air" in 1 These 4:17.
and they are removed from the earth in Revelation 3:10
Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
Paul said "caught uptogether with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air" in 1 These 4:17.
and they are removed from the earth in Revelation 3:10
Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
Are saying that Darby wrote the New Testament?
The New Testament was written about 2000 years ago. You line of reasoning is flawed.
The new Testament definitely has the doctrine of the pre tribulation rapture.
Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.- - Rev 3:10
1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh. - Matt 25:1-13
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. - 1 These 4:13-18
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. - Matthew 24:40-42
There are more. Revelation is of course a big clue. Who are all those people in heaven from Revelation 4 through 19.
That is 3 passages from Jesus Christ and one from Paul. They are not heretics as you seem to be implying.
Now there are heretical churches, the Catholic Church has quite a few. They deny a rapture too. Why listen to those that err?
The New Testament was written about 2000 years ago. You line of reasoning is flawed.
The new Testament definitely has the doctrine of the pre tribulation rapture.
Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.- - Rev 3:10
1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh. - Matt 25:1-13
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. - 1 These 4:13-18
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. - Matthew 24:40-42
There are more. Revelation is of course a big clue. Who are all those people in heaven from Revelation 4 through 19.
That is 3 passages from Jesus Christ and one from Paul. They are not heretics as you seem to be implying.
Now there are heretical churches, the Catholic Church has quite a few. They deny a rapture too. Why listen to those that err?