There will be no Rapture!!!

[TheDivineWatermark]

But being ascended (or physical death—or those who have died and are in heaven right now) haven’t been granted any of the two resurrections (first or second) yet. Am I on the same page?

I'm not sure what you are asking exactly.

I'll say this,

"ascend / ascended" refers to or involves also the [person's] BODY. (Like, the "2W," for example. They died / were killed... then they stood on their feet [were resurrected bodily] before "ascending up to heaven" [bodily])



Whereas, "absent from the body" we are "at home with [pros] the Lord" 2Cor5:8 (also called "unclothed" in this context--that is, apart from a body, for a time [until resurrection]... "the dead in Christ")... and "whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord" 2Cor5:6.


Are we on the same page thus far? lol






[I'm asking the readers to consider 'why' the 2W are resurrected at a completely DISTINCT time-slot from when all others will be, according to the "only in Rev20" viewpoint]

 

[ewq1938]

So, what I think I hear you saying, is that "the 2 Witnesses" are neither...

Not even close.

 

[ewq1938]

Look at what the "24 ELDERS" are saying in Rev5:9 -

"And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;"


Now, it is either as you suggest, that there are only "24" NATIONS, and TONGUES, and PEOPLE, and KINDRED;

OR, consider that these "ELDERS" (on "thrones") are speaking on behalf of the greater/wider body [of people] being referenced (out of / from "EVERY" nation, tongue, etc--of which there is MORE than merely "24" ), like "elders" in your church likely do, on occasion, do they not?

They are singing a song not "speaking" which is a completely different context, a song that is about everyone and anyone who would be redeemed since saved Christians have and will come from all nations and tongues etc. In no way does anything there suggest a pre-trib rapture and keep in mind the only times a rapture is mentioned or described it is only after the trib not before it.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Not even close.

Which ARE the "2W" then?

--"the dead in Christ" who shall "rise [/be resurrected] FIRST"?

or

--the "we which are ALIVE and REMAIN UNTO the coming of the Lord..."?




And if you say, neither... and that they are likely resurrected at a different point in time from the rest of the saints (however short that time difference is, according to your view), how does this jive with the insistence by some that there is ONLY ONE "resurrection" at ONE point in time, called "THE FIRST [in time] RESURRECTION" (as in, NONE BEFORE it!!)?

 

[DRobinson]

The most important point made in Rev. 20:6 that comes at the second coming of Jesus, seems to have been missed.
Regardless if the word first is translated first or greatest, those not in it are subject to the second death.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

and keep in mind the only times a rapture is mentioned or described it is only after the trib not before it.

I see no text speaking of "rapture / snatch / caught up / harpagēsometha [G726]" in any of the "after trib" contexts, whatsoever.

I do see that the TWO texts referring to "GREAT" trumpet, is speaking of Israel [the elect of Israel] being gathered "ONE BY ONE"--not "AS ONE" as we will be--and they'll be gathered into ONE place upon the earth, i.e. "at Jerusalem" (from where they've been judicially "scattered" TO THE FOUR WINDS [i.e. worldwide nations], so now--at that time--"FROM the four winds" will be gathered, and by ANGELS "HE SHALL SEND" to do so, in contrast to the wording of, "the Lord HIMSELF"... in every way DISTINCT from the manner of "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]")

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The most important point made in Rev. 20:6 that comes at the second coming of Jesus, seems to have been missed.
Regardless if the word first is translated first or greatest, those not in it are subject to the second death.

My question to you (not sure you've answered yet) is:

Who (in the surrounding text / context) is the phrase "THIS is" referring to, where v.5 uses this word?






[no one disagrees that "those in it [that is, "having A PART IN the resurrection the first"] are not subject to the second death". That verse is indeed stating a FACT! Right!]

 

[ewq1938]

Which ARE the "2W" then?

--"the dead in Christ" who shall "rise [/be resurrected] FIRST"?

or

--the "we which are ALIVE and REMAIN UNTO the coming of the Lord..."?




And if you say, neither... and that they are likely resurrected at a different point in time from the rest of the saints (however short that time difference is, according to your view), how does this jive with the insistence by some that there is ONLY ONE "resurrection" at ONE point in time, called "THE FIRST [in time] RESURRECTION" (as in, NONE BEFORE it!!)?

The two prophets resurrect in the 6th trump while the general resurrection of the dead in Christ happens in the 7th trump. There is not one resurrection only. There are two mass resurrections mentioned in Rev 20, the first resurrection is the one happening before the thousand years begins, the second one is for "the rest of the dead" and that is after the thou years. There is no issue that two people resurrected before the larger group does. The only mystery that exists is whether the two prophets resurrected as mortals and are changed to immortals, or if they resurrected as immortals. Neither is an issue for any theological end times position.

 

[ewq1938]

I see no text speaking of "rapture / snatch / caught up / harpagēsometha [G726]" in any of the "after trib" contexts, whatsoever.

It's still there whether someone sees it or not.

Here is the only passage about The Rapture that actually uses the Greek word that means a rapture, Harpazo:

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.(second coming reference)
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord (second coming reference) shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven (second coming reference) with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (the resurrection of the dead in Christ)
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up (harpazo) together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (the rapture)

Here we see the second coming mentioned 3 times, then the resurrection and then the rapture. This proves the rapture is connected to the second coming. All that needs to be proven is when the second coming happens to know when the rapture happens.


Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


The second coming happens AFTER the GT is over, so the rapture happens post-Trib. Circumventing these two passages is to ignore the scriptural evidence of WHEN the rapture is going to happen.

 

[SavedByTheLord]

There will be no pre or mid tribulation rapture. This is an invention of the dispensationalists. The Pre-Rapture was invented by the dispensationalist John Darby in the 19th century. It did not exist before that. Church history did not know a Pre-Rapture before the 19th century.

The Bible clearly states that Christians must go through the Tribulation, for Revelation 20:4 describes how Christians will be beheaded for their faith during the Tribulation. If there really was a Pre-Tribulation Rapture, then logically there would be no Christians in the Tribulation, but because there will be Christians in the Tribulation, that means there will be no Pre-Tribulation Rapture! Revelation 13:7 also declares that Christians will be given into the hand of the Antichrist, which means the Antichrist may overcome Christians and kill them.

Jesus will return only once and that is after the tribulation. Then he will gather all Christians.

Well these guys will be rapture before the tribulation.

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. - Rev 3:10-11

 

[ewq1938]

Well these guys will be rapture before the tribulation.

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. - Rev 3:10-11

Another misunderstood pre-trib proof text:

Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

7 churches are mentioned of the Christians in the first century yet pre-trib takes one line from one letter and uses it as if this one thing somehow proves the entire church will be raptured before the great tribulation. That's horribly bad exegesis.

The problems:

1. Obviously, it's only said about 1/7 of the churches so that isn't a pre-trib rapture of the whole church.


2, The fact that tribulation is mentioned for one of the other churches further disproves any idea that the church won't face tribulation. ie: this verse cancels out the other verse. The truth is that neither is talking about the rapture or the great tribulation.

So which is it? No tribulation or some? Pre-trib is inconsistent and misleading when they cite Rev 3:10 and not also Rev 2:10.


Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.


3. "keep thee from the hour of temptation" is not the same as "rapture you out of the world to avoid the great tribulation". This means to not fall for or accept the temptations offered like how Christ refused his own hour of temptations from satan. Jesus was not raptured out of the world to be kept from those temptations and neither shall the church.

1 Corinthians 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to BEAR it.

One can escape something by being able to bear it. It is not a physical escape but a mental and spiritual escape.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

There is no issue that two people resurrected before the larger group does.

It's an issue for DRobinson, who's been repeatedly saying "the FIRST resurrection" in Rev20 is preceded by NO OTHER before it!


Now, if YOU have no issue with "TWO PEOPLE" (the "2W") being "resurrected BEFORE" the larger group does, despite the phrase "THE RESURRECTION the FIRST" (as some want to insist is THE ONLY ONE, at that ONE POINT IN TIME, for ALL SAINTS)... it makes me wonder why the supposed "rule of 'FIRST[-in-time]'" ( ), so to speak, can be "bent / broken / ignored" for THOSE TWO (the "2W"), but absolutely CANNOT be for...

the "ONE BODY"





("the Church which is HIS BODY [SINGULAR]")









[again, "[re: resurrection] But each IN THE OWN ORDER / RANK"... WHY the need to say this, IF there remains ONLY ONE, at one point in time... and in fact, Paul lists them out (the "future tense" ones, according to the "future tense" "SHALL... BE MADE ALIVE," and where the "But [conj]" joins what v.22b had just said about that "future," to the entire contents of v.23! Not to mention the reason Paul uses both "EPeita" and "eita" in this context, in abutting verses]

 

[ewq1938]

Now, if YOU have no issue with "TWO PEOPLE" (the "2W") being "resurrected BEFORE" the larger group does, despite the phrase "THE RESURRECTION the FIRST"

You are misunderstanding what first resurrection means in Rev 20. It's not speaking of the first person to ever resurrect. It's not speaking of Jesus. It's not speaking of the two prophets. It is only a reference to the first of the two mass resurrections that Rev 20 addresses. That is the sole and only reason "first resurrection" is used. Rev 20 does not address the resurrection of the two prophets, Jesus or Lazarus or anyone else.

 

[presidente]

BY THE WAY @presidente , I don't "copy & paste"... I rarely ever do... I type each post up by hand each time (and takes me forever coz I'm a painfully SLOW typist... hunt and peck, for sure!!)

Pardon my playful dig at you earlier. If you type all that stuff up each time, I think you could save time and communicate more effectively by leaving off the bolds, brackets, etc. It's more readable.

I type fast, but I've worn the pads of my fingers down and it hurts to type sometimes.

I do wonder if you have fallen into the habit of typing the same long strings of words together every time.

 

[Mem]

Well these guys will be rapture before the tribulation.

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. - Rev 3:10-11

the preposition here, ek, "from out, out from among, from, suggesting from the interior outwards. A primary preposition denoting origin, from, out."
So, in other words, guard you thoroughly throughout, i.e. because you have guarded the word of my perseverance, I will also guard you thoroughly throughout the hour that shall come upon all the world (all that are upon the earth, including you).

Hence the commandments; Fear not! only believe! in My Salvation!

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Here is the only passage about The Rapture that actually uses the Greek word that means a rapture, Harpazo:

1Th 4:13

So, what do you make of what 1Th 3:13 is saying (where it also talks about "the coming / parousia of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints"), where the phrase "before [G1715] the God and Father of us" is also mentioned? (This comports also with the scene in Rev4, regarding the "24 elders" and then what they later say of themselves [I 'say' things in 'song' too ] in their wording of 5:9... which is shown to be PRIOR to the opening of the first seal--which is equivalent to the first of "the beginning of birth pangs" and which Paul had said that the arrival of "the day of the Lord" is "exactly like [hosper]" that initial birth pang (not toward their conclusion! Many more birth pangs--plur.--will follow on from that INITIAL birth pang, which is Seal #1 at the Start of the "in quickness" time period we call "the Trib")




[IOW, the SEQUENCE of even Paul's words provide vital clues to determining this matter, as well; Same SEQUENCE Paul repeats 3x in 2Th2, btw!]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I do wonder if you have fallen into the habit of typing the same long strings of words together every time.

Well, perhaps so... but maybe I'm hoping that one day it will finally sink into your noggin (if I repeat it often enough) that the "inflicting vengeance on" (in 2Th1) is not what will take place merely on one lone "24-hr day".




[did your eyes glaze over when reading that sentence, above?? lol]

 

[WMarkB]

This may be an over simplification… but at this point, I see Satan coming to earth as antichrist (instead of Christ) and he’s going to rapture a bunch of Christians. A bunch of people living in a mental matrix, believing Christ has returned…. Then the true messiah
will return and find people in bed with satan.

Christ told us when he returns you better not be pregnant, when He returns you better not be giving sup.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

You are misunderstanding what first resurrection means in Rev 20. It's not speaking of the first person to ever resurrect.

Well, I AGREE with the sentences above!

I'VE BEEN SAYING THAT VERY THING (that I bolded ^ ) !!!

I'm not the one saying it.

Others in this thread are the ones saying it, in their rebuttal of what I've been pointing out about this text.



"the resurrection the first [adj]" (v.5) is NOT saying, these are the first ones to have been resurrected. No. But their wanting to insist that it DOES mean this, enables them to continue touting this "ONE POINT IN TIME ONLY" idea (re: "resurrection" of saints).




Rev20:4a is about "still-living" saints at that time-slot (compare also the wording of Dan7:22!! Same persons!)

Rev20:4b is about the LAST persons [saints] to die / be martyred (that is, the are killed in the latter half of the Trib years... like the ones Rev12:17 speaks of [compare wording, and the timing issue: 2nd half Trib] and the ones who don't take the mark of the beast and are killed because of that [also 2nd half Trib]). NO other saints are being spoken of where v.5's "THIS" is referring back to those whom v.4b said were killed DURING A VERY SPECIFIC [LIMITED] TIME-FRAME... not all saints of any and all times.



V.6 states a FACT (that DOES pertain to all saints), like I said earlier.

"... all those HAVING A PART IN the resurrection the first" (not speaking of any "timing" issue here... "first [adj]"... "first" in quality, not "first" in TIME as those this is THE ONLY MOMENT saints are "resurrected" [the "2W" prove that])

 

[cv5]

Unlike you I assume nothing. I read and accept what is said,
We are told their number, their dress, and what they do.

They provide an exact description that defines WHO THEY ARE!
-redeemed out of every tribe tongue people and nation (JEWS AND GENTILES!)
-white robes
-thrones
-kings and priests
-crowns

THE CHURCH. The one and only Body that possesses these attributes. Wake up to this crucial Biblical truth friend.