There will be no Rapture!!!

[presidente]

First of all, what is the church? It is a body of believers. The church of Christ is the many-member body of the faithful. Ok, the Rapture doctors state that the Church is not mentioned after {Rev 4:1}, but then our Sunday-schooler opens his/her Bible to the last chapter in the book of Revelation, the sixth verse from the end of the Bible even, to Jesus Christ's last recorded words*, and reads:

Rev 22:16 (Jesus' last recorded words*)
16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

And then there is the mention in {Rev 17:5-6} of the Saints that were martyred, what about them? Are they not of the Church which supposedly is not mentioned after Revelation chapter four? And what about the: "and their fellowservants also and their brethren that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled" {Rev 6:11}, are they not of the 'Church'? Or: "And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" {Rev 7:13}, are you prepared to say that these who overcame the Great Tribulation are not considered the end time Church on earth either?!?

Or, try this one on for size, is this not after Revelation chapter four: "And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads" {Rev 9:4}, if they can only hurt those on the earth without the seal of God then it logically stands to reason that there are those on earth who do have the seal of God on the earth which they are chastened not to injure; these are NOT the 144,000, this is chronologically before the sealing of the 144,000, the 144,000 are not sealed for another five months yet. So, are these not of the Church that supposedly isn't mentioned?!?

Or what about this Scripture, is this not the Church??? Who are these saints, spoken of prior to the end of the earth, whom are on the earth during the 6th and 7th trump (the last) if not true believers, and if true believers then are they not the Church? You remember what a church is - it is simply a body of believers not having walls or name: "14 The second woe is past [6th trump]; and, behold, the third woe [7th trump] cometh quickly...15 And the seventh angel sounded [7th trump]; and there were great voices in heaven...17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned...18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth" {Rev 11:14-18}. [This is not speaking of the Great White Throne Judgment day {Rev 20:11-15} which isn't for at least another 1000 years (after the Millennium), this is the Second Advent of Christ when He comes with a rod of iron and great fury and wrath {Rev19:11-21}]

It doesn't make much sense, but pretribbers say there is a rapture that raptures the 'church' and the saints after the tribulation are 'tribulational saints' instead of the church. Again, it doesn't make much sense. There isn't any scripture to back up the pre-trib rapture. They can try to make the apostacy out to be a rapture as a proof-text, but a lot of the pretribbers aren't comfortable doing that either. Paul did predict an apostacy from the faith. It was part of his teaching on the last days according to scripture.

 

[cv5]

Show me in the book of Revelation where 'pretribulational rapture' is mentioned. Show me were a similar word is mentioned anywhere in the Bible.

You have recycled that same line dozens of time. And it always falls flat on its face.

@TheDivineWatermark has disproven all of your assertions with devastating effectiveness. The outcome is always the same.

 

[cv5]

It doesn't make much sense, but pretribbers say there is a rapture that raptures the 'church' and the saints after the tribulation are 'tribulational saints' instead of the church. Again, it doesn't make much sense. There isn't any scripture to back up the pre-trib rapture. They can try to make the apostacy out to be a rapture as a proof-text, but a lot of the pretribbers aren't comfortable doing that either. Paul did predict an apostacy from the faith. It was part of his teaching on the last days according to scripture.

You are back on ignore. I hear nothing useful nor original.

 

[cv5]

First of all, what is the church? It is a body of believers. The church of Christ is the many-member body of the faithful. Ok, the Rapture doctors state that the Church is not mentioned after {Rev 4:1}, but then our Sunday-schooler opens his/her Bible to the last chapter in the book of Revelation, the sixth verse from the end of the Bible even, to Jesus Christ's last recorded words*, and reads:

Rev 22:16 (Jesus' last recorded words*)
16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

And then there is the mention in {Rev 17:5-6} of the Saints that were martyred, what about them? Are they not of the Church which supposedly is not mentioned after Revelation chapter four? And what about the: "and their fellowservants also and their brethren that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled" {Rev 6:11}, are they not of the 'Church'? Or: "And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" {Rev 7:13}, are you prepared to say that these who overcame the Great Tribulation are not considered the end time Church on earth either?!?

Or, try this one on for size, is this not after Revelation chapter four: "And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads" {Rev 9:4}, if they can only hurt those on the earth without the seal of God then it logically stands to reason that there are those on earth who do have the seal of God on the earth which they are chastened not to injure; these are NOT the 144,000, this is chronologically before the sealing of the 144,000, the 144,000 are not sealed for another five months yet. So, are these not of the Church that supposedly isn't mentioned?!?

Or what about this Scripture, is this not the Church??? Who are these saints, spoken of prior to the end of the earth, whom are on the earth during the 6th and 7th trump (the last) if not true believers, and if true believers then are they not the Church? You remember what a church is - it is simply a body of believers not having walls or name: "14 The second woe is past [6th trump]; and, behold, the third woe [7th trump] cometh quickly...15 And the seventh angel sounded [7th trump]; and there were great voices in heaven...17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned...18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth" {Rev 11:14-18}. [This is not speaking of the Great White Throne Judgment day {Rev 20:11-15} which isn't for at least another 1000 years (after the Millennium), this is the Second Advent of Christ when He comes with a rod of iron and great fury and wrath {Rev19:11-21}]

Sorry friend. I have no other choice but to put you on ignore. When the ball is in your court, you should be responding to my specific inquiry.

The reasons why you did not (and cannot) are all too clear.

 

[Truthnightmare]

It doesn't make much sense, but pretribbers say there is a rapture that raptures the 'church' and the saints after the tribulation are 'tribulational saints' instead of the church. Again, it doesn't make much sense. There isn't any scripture to back up the pre-trib rapture. They can try to make the apostacy out to be a rapture as a proof-text, but a lot of the pretribbers aren't comfortable doing that either. Paul did predict an apostacy from the faith. It was part of his teaching on the last days according to scripture.

This may be an over simplification… but at this point, I see Satan coming to earth as antichrist (instead of Christ) and he’s going to rapture a bunch of Christians. A bunch of people living in a mental matrix, believing Christ has returned…. Then the true messiah
will return and find people in bed with satan.

Christ told us when he returns you better not be pregnant, when He returns you better not be giving sup.

 

[Truthnightmare]

Sorry friend. I have no other choice but to put you on ignore. When the ball is in your court, you should be responding to my specific inquiry.

The reasons why you did not (and cannot) are all too clear.

Friend? What friend puts there friends
on ignore.. I was never a friend to begin with, and that’s ok. I wish you well.

 

[presidente]

How do you believe people interpreted this before 1830?

The rapture? John Gill was an English Baptist who wrote a commentary on the entire Bible, and passed away in 1771. He wrote a commentary on I Thessalonians 4.

This is a quote from John Gill which discusses the rapture,

shall be caught up; suddenly, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, and with force and power; by the power of Christ, and by the ministry and means of the holy angels; and to which rapture will contribute, the agility which the bodies both of the raised and changed saints will have: and this rapture of the living saints will be

together with them; with the dead in Christ, that will then be raised; so that the one will not come before the other, or the one be sooner with Christ than the other; but the one being raised and the other changed, they will be joined in one company and general assembly, and be caught up together:

in the clouds; the same clouds perhaps in which Christ will come, will be let down to take them up;

Gill is not the earliest English commentator I have seen use 'rapture' to describe the event.

'Rapture' was used in English language commentaries to describe this event before Darby.

I'll also quote Bede, just as an example of belief in the bodily resurrection from someone from the British Isles. He was probably writing in Latin, but I can't find if he used a word related to the English 'rapture.'

By Moses and Elijah [at the transfiguration] we can rightly understand everyone who is going to reign with the Lord. By Moses, who died and was buried, [we can understand] those who at the judgment are going to be raised up from death. By Elijah, on the other hand, who has not yet paid the debt of death, [we can understand] those who are going to be found alive in the flesh at the Judge’s coming. At one and the same moment, both of them, having been caught up “in clouds to meet the Lord in the air,” will be led into eternal life, as soon as the judgment is brought to completion

https://catenabible.com/1thes/4

You can look up other references there to literal beliefs in resurrection and literal beliefs in being caught up. John Crysostom in the 4th century suggested being caught up in a chariot.

Was not this originally from port Glasgow, Scotland, in the Spring of the year A.D. 1830, a bedridden woman had a revelation on her sick bed, supposedly from God, in where she was shown what has become to be known as "The Rapture Of The Church." Prior to this day, the concept of an 'at any moment, fly away doctrine' (Rapture) was unknown. Within the first few paragraphs of her monumental Scripture-riddled statement. Ms. Macdonald makes an ominous statement about her vision, in that at first, at the time of the vision, it felt as though there was "Great darkness" and "Error" about it. This is something that rapture believers seem to always leave out.

Below, I have quoted from the first few paragraphs of her infamous 'Rapture of the Church' revelation, taken from Ms. Margaret Macdonald's own handwritten account of her 1830 pre-trib revelation, as included in Robert Norton's Memoirs of James & George Macdonald, of port-Glasgow (1840), pp. 171-176. And also found in The restoration of Apostles and prophets; In the Catholic Apostolic Church (1861), pp. 15-18. And also found in The incredible Cover-up by Dave Macpherson, Appendix A:

"I felt this needed to be revealed, and that there was great darkness and error about it; but suddenly what it was burst upon me with a glorious light."

-- Margaret MacDonald (Spring of 1830)

Ms. MacDonald then goes on to outline a series of 'visions' now known as the Rapture Doctrine. The spirit world is very real, but there is the Holy Spirit of God and there are satan's evil spirits, demons and the like. This is why the Bible strictly prohibits the conjuring up of spirits and communicating with the dead (Necromancy). Margaret Macdonald might well have been visited by a spirit on her sick bed that day, an evil spirit!

I Jn 4:1
1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. (KJV)

Just as the young girl below who though she was visiting with the Mother Mary. Observe below as satan fulfils the Scripture: "And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light" {2 Cor 11:14}:

"He was ugly, horribly ugly. You cannot imagine how ugly, he almost killed me with his gaze, I almost fainted. Then Satan went away and Our Lady came and said to me: "...renew the use of holy water, wear blessed objects and holy objects and put them in your homes." "

-- Mirjana Dragicevic, describing a Mother Mary Apparition
in Medjugorje Yugoslavia, on April 14, 1982.

After Macdonald's vision was made known in town, two preachers heard of it, repackaged it as their own and sold it to the world. Hence, the ungodly Rapture 'Doctrine' is born in the Spring of A.D. 1830. There is some indication that the Roman Catholic Jesuit priesthood had some hand in this but as of now I cannot satisfactorily document this.

Even before discussions of this so called event “rapture” one must be honest and admit this is a new age concept.

Huh? What a convoluted quote. It acts like it is going to quote Margaret McDonald, but then quotes a Mary Apparition? I'm not endorsing the quote by repeating it. I don't want to slander the dead.

Where the McDonald's some kind of Protestant? Irving was a Presbyterian minister.

I recall reading a version of her description of her vision. I think there are different supposed accounts of it that are not all the same, and I am not sure where the error came from, possibly quotes erroneously attributed to her. But the one I read did use the word 'rapture' in what seemed to me to be an allegorical way, not the same thing that Darby was talking about.

The church Irving served at and the 'Catholic Apostolic Church' movement that grew out of it did not even believe in a pre-tribulation rapture. They had some vague concept of a millennium, or at least it was very vaguely described. Darby was, or at least became, a staunch cessationist. The idea that he got his eschatology from McDonald's vision seems very far fetched and did not make much sense based on the description of the vision I read.

I suspect someone way back when tried to tie the two things together based on fuzzy evidence and guesswork and the idea that he got his eschatology from her vision just gets repeated over and over again, despite of how not feasible the idea is.

 

[presidente]

You have recycled that same line dozens of time. And it always falls flat on its face.

I am pretty sure its the first time I said that.

But i was using your line of reasoning, so if it fell flat on it's face, that's the point.

@TheDivineWatermark has disproven all of your assertions with devastating effectiveness. The outcome is always the same.[/QUOTE]

Uh, no. He hasn't proven pretrib or disproven my assertions. He has used a lot of brackets and bold letters and made claims about the Greek, and doesn't respond with pressed for the basis for his claims. Maybe he doesn't have a heavily bolded and bracketed stock response to cut and paste in response to my question.

Boasting and bragging about proving pre-trib isn't the same as offering a coherent case for it. So far, from what I see pre-trib rests on trying to create 'problems' that aren't real problems--- as if 'not appointed unto wrath but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ' is supposed to mean the church can't suffer through the tribulation... stuff like that.

I challenge pretribbers to show me the pretrib rapture in some narrative portion of scripture or in the words of Jesus or Paul. I've seen a few very highly allegorical attempts of trying to read it into certain scriptures or attempts to turn the apostacy into the rapture in II Thessalonians 2.

 

[montana123]

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Paul plainly states that the gathering of the saints unto Christ shall not happen until the man of sin claims to be God which happens in the middle of the 7 years period.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Rev 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
Rev 9:21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

After the 6th trumpet the world does not repent of their sins, and turn to God, so He gives them the antichrist to rule over them.

The 6th trumpet shall happen during the first three and one half years of the 7 years period, and that is when the world turns to the antichrist as the solution to have peace on earth.

The saints are resurrected at the last trump so it cannot be before the 7 years period for the 6th trumpet happens during the first three and one half years of the 7 years period.

Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

The beast has power over all kindreds, tongues, and nations, during the last three and one half years, and makes war against the saints so they have to be on earth.

Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

The saints are given in to the hands of the beast for the last three and one half years.

Dan 8:24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

He shall destroy the mighty and the holy people so the saints are on earth.

Dan 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

The saints are on earth during the last three and one half years.

And there is no tribulation saints for Jesus said if they do not get caught up in the resurrection then they cannot be with Him for they were hypocritical as to the reason why they did not get caught up, and the world cannot be saved after that for they rejected the truth.

And it cannot be Israel for Israel is protected from physical attack for the 7 years period, and God will send them two witnesses to turn Israel to the truth who have power to plague the people that try to stop them from preaching which is during the last three and one half years.

The saints will not be resurrected until the 7 years period is over.

 

[Nehemiah6]

2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

That should be "the day of the Lord".

 

[ewq1938]

But you believe only part of the saints. Those raptured before the first resurrection.

That is not possible as the dead in Christ rise first, not second. It also says the living cannot prevent the dead which means cannot precede them. The order cannot be reversed.

 

[ewq1938]

Ms. MacDonald then goes on to outline a series of 'visions' now known as the Rapture Doctrine.

Her vision is purely post-trib though. She describes the AC persecuting the church so not pre-trib at all.

 

[John146]

If I am correct, you believe in a pre-trib rapture of the church and also all the saved are the church.
So where are those church members that have already died today?

Absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Their souls are with the Lord, bodies in the grave.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Proves my point. Each refers to those being resurrected not to a multitude of resurrections
You still have not addressed my post on the first resurrection as explained in Rev. 20.

I addressed this point in several posts of this thread. Have you been following along from the beginning of this thread, or at least from page 10 when I joined in? It seems you have been, at least in "reading mode," so I would have thought you might have seen the few points I have covered, on that, in this thread. (Perhaps you've not?)


In fact, in just one of the posts, I'd put forth the question, Who is the "THIS is" referring to, in verse 5b? and didn't see any takers willing to respond to that question... including you (unless I missed it).


Answering this question might go a long way in gaining some traction, "discussion-wise," on that verse or passage. Care to move your chess piece next? = )





[I will try to put together another small post covering points I've made in the past, on this verse, but it will take some time]



BY THE WAY @presidente , I don't "copy & paste"... I rarely ever do... I type each post up by hand each time (and takes me forever coz I'm a painfully SLOW typist... hunt and peck, for sure!!)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Her vision is purely post-trib though. She describes the AC persecuting the church so not pre-trib at all.

Agreed.

And glad we can agree on this point. = )

 

[Gideon300]

There will be no pre or mid tribulation rapture. This is an invention of the dispensationalists. The Pre-Rapture was invented by the dispensationalist John Darby in the 19th century. It did not exist before that. Church history did not know a Pre-Rapture before the 19th century.

The Bible clearly states that Christians must go through the Tribulation, for Revelation 20:4 describes how Christians will be beheaded for their faith during the Tribulation. If there really was a Pre-Tribulation Rapture, then logically there would be no Christians in the Tribulation, but because there will be Christians in the Tribulation, that means there will be no Pre-Tribulation Rapture! Revelation 13:7 also declares that Christians will be given into the hand of the Antichrist, which means the Antichrist may overcome Christians and kill them.

Jesus will return only once and that is after the tribulation. Then he will gather all Christians.

There are arguments for and against, from God's word. There will be many saved during the Tribulation time. Nominal Christians who do not take God and his word seriously, for example. They will be forced to choose. Some will choose Christ even though it costs them their lives. God delivered Lot before Sodom was destroyed. Noah was safe during the flood that destroyed the wicked. It is reasonable to believe that God will deliver His people from the tribulation. It is not intended for the just but for the wicked. It is Christians that prevent the appearance of the Antichrist. That's my view, anyway. If I live long enough, not a given, I will find out one way or the other. And God's grace is sufficient whatever the situation.

 

[ewq1938]

Agreed.

And glad we can agree on this point. = )

The guy that wrote that original book on her deliberately removed two of her statements from the vision to misrepresent her as they both were very post-trib in nature. FRom that book all these people claim this whole "Pre-trib came from a little girl's vision in 1830." No one bothers to actually fact check it, read the book, or even actually read her vision.

 

[ewq1938]

There will be many saved during the Tribulation time. Nominal Christians who do not take God and his word seriously, for example.

Is this opinion or is it based on scripture that says this happens during the trib?

 

[Evmur]

There will be no pre or mid tribulation rapture. This is an invention of the dispensationalists. The Pre-Rapture was invented by the dispensationalist John Darby in the 19th century. It did not exist before that. Church history did not know a Pre-Rapture before the 19th century.

The Bible clearly states that Christians must go through the Tribulation, for Revelation 20:4 describes how Christians will be beheaded for their faith during the Tribulation. If there really was a Pre-Tribulation Rapture, then logically there would be no Christians in the Tribulation, but because there will be Christians in the Tribulation, that means there will be no Pre-Tribulation Rapture! Revelation 13:7 also declares that Christians will be given into the hand of the Antichrist, which means the Antichrist may overcome Christians and kill them.

Jesus will return only once and that is after the tribulation. Then he will gather all Christians.

All Christians are dispensationalists, since we are not Jewish I don't for the life of me understand why anyone would try to argue.

It also seems a little silly to me to say "there will be no pre-tribulation rapture, therefore there will be no rapture."

We BELIEVE "through great tribulation must we enter the kingdom" we are going through tribulation now and it will get much, much worse and culminate in the period known as the great tribulation.

Tribulation is persecution. The great tribulation is the great persecution Jesus warned us would come in the end times. After the tribulation of those days "they will see Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory ... " He will gather His people.

God will then pour His fury upon the the tribulators.

 

[selahsays]

Then why did John say this is the first resurrection if it was not.
We are not talking about the resurrection of our Savior but the resurrection of the Saints.

Yes, and this first resurrection is to eternal life/immortality.